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    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife    
    Monday, March 15 2004 @ 01:07 AM GMT+4
    Contributed by: Anonymous

    SpiritualThe Sept. 11 terrorist attacks should give us pause to consider whether religions should assure people that a life after death awaits them. In all probability, the terrorist attacks and innumerable other tragedies throughout history would not have occurred but for that belief.

    Promotes Terrorism

    The terrorists believed that Allah approved of their suicidal acts and they would be eternally rewarded as martyrs. In a letter discovered after the attacks, their ringleader assured his companions that they would soon be in paradise "with beautiful angels" who have "put on their most beautiful dresses."

    The Koran supports his belief. As for the reward awaiting Muslims after death, it says: "But for the God-fearing is a blissful abode, enclosed gardens and vineyards; and damsels with swelling breasts for companions; and a full cup." This is where "reclining on beds they will ask for abundant fruit and exquisite drinks, all the while next to them will be blushing virgins as companions."

    Terrorist leaders use these promised rewards as a primary means of recruiting the young and motivating them to carry out murder-suicides. This method of inciting terrorism would be ineffective if the recruits had been taught that there is no rational basis for believing in an afterlife.

    Promotes War

    According to Richard Dawkins, such erroneous beliefs about the hereafter have immunized not only Middle Eastern terrorists against fear of death but also countless other warriors throughout history. The promised heavenly rewards made the prospect of death in battle appear attractive.
    The use of this propaganda has been so effective that Dawkins exclaims: "What a weapon! Religious faith deserves a chapter to itself in the annals of war technology, on an even footing with the longbow, the warhorse, the tank and the neutron bomb."

    Bertrand Russell makes a similar observation: "At a certain stage of development, as the Mohammedans first proved, belief in Paradise has considerable military value as reinforcing natural pugnacity."
    Whether the Muslims were the first to use that belief for military purposes, it is certain that the same idea was soon used against them. In the Middle Ages, rewards of eternal bliss in heaven were promised to Christians who joined the Crusades against Islam.

    More recently, during the war between Iran and Iraq in the 1980s, assurances of heavenly rewards motivated many young Iranian boys - between 9 and 16 years old - to give their lives by running through mine fields to clear the way for advancing Iranian soldiers. The promised rewards also motivated parents all over Iran to encourage their sons to participate in these "human wave attacks."

    Robin Wright, who witnessed the boys' actions, wrote in Sacred Rage that "wearing white headbands to signify the embracing of death, and shouting 'Shahid! Shahid! (Martyr! Martyr!),' they literally blew their way into heaven."

    Similarly in the 1990s, the hope for martyrdom motivated many of the fundamentalist Islamic soldiers who enabled the Taliban to take over and control most of Afghanistan. The Taliban became a supporter of terrorists, including the ones responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks.

    If people did not believe in life after death and realized there is absolutely no scientific evidence for it, the thought of dying a warrior's death would be less appealing to them. Instead of welcoming death or viewing it casually, they would likely value this life more by knowing that, as far as we can tell, it is the only one we have.

    Promotes Murder

    Belief in an afterlife can also lead people to commit murder. The Humanist philosopher Corliss Lamont asserts that some ancient societies would kill their aging members before they reached a state of decrepitude. The idea was that they could therefore go to the afterlife in a body that was still in relatively good shape.

    A more modern example is the case of John List, a New Jersey accountant and Sunday school teacher who killed his wife and three children in 1971. When finally caught many years later, List explained that his wife was drifting away from Christianity and his children were likely to do so when faced with worldly temptations as they grew older. So he decided to kill them while they were still Christians, thereby ensuring that they would go to heaven instead of hell.

    A lesser-known case occurred in Baytown, Texas, in the mid 1980s. A 31-year-old mother killed three of her children with a knife, while a fourth child survived the attack. The mother had written that she wanted to send her children to Jesus.

    Similar motivation appears to have been present in the infamous case of Andrea Yates, the devoutly religious Texas housewife who drowned her five children in a bathtub in 2001. According to Newsweek, Yates told a jail psychologist that her bad mothering had made the kids "not righteous," which would cause them to "perish in the fires of hell." She explained that because she killed them while they were young, God would be merciful to their souls and "take them up" to heaven.

    Belief in an afterlife was also held by Susan Smith, the South Carolina woman who drowned her two young sons in 1994. While parked on a boat ramp and deciding whether to send her car into a lake while the toddlers were strapped in their seats, Smith believed that the boys would go to a happy existence with Jesus immediately after their deaths. As she sits in prison, she still believes that's where they are.

    Northeastern University criminologist James Fox indicates that belief in a better world beyond the grave is not unusual among parents who kill their children and themselves. "Frequently, the parent thinks this life is miserable and rationalizes that the family will be happily reunited in the hereafter," he states.

    Clearly, such motives for murder could not exist absent belief in an afterlife.


    Promotes Suicide

    Not only terrorist suicide attacks and murder-suicides within families, but also other types of suicide can result from the notion of a heavenly abode. Corliss Lamont relates an incident from the 1930s involving a U.S. congressman who killed himself shortly after his wife died.
    The man explained in a suicide note that his wife had been calling him to join her and their young son in heaven. Lamont reports that, rather than this being an isolated incident, there are "numerous cases on record of people killing themselves to preclude being parted from the beloved dead."

    Belief in an afterlife also caused the mass suicide of the religious group known as the People's Temple. Rev. Jim Jones, their leader, relocated the group from the U.S. to Jonestown, Guyana, in the mid 1970s. Jones believed that he and his followers would eventually die together and go to a place of eternal bliss, and they practiced mass suicides.

    In 1978, after his security guards had killed a visiting congressman and several others, Jones feared retaliation and decided it was time for the group to do the real thing. He then led them in a mass suicide that caused his death and that of 913 of his followers, including nearly 300 children.
    Belief in the hereafter likewise incited the 1997 mass suicide in the Heaven's Gate religious organization in Southern California. The group believed that accompanying the Hale-Bopp comet was a spaceship that would take them to a higher realm of existence. So 39 members killed themselves, believing that by shedding their earthly bodies they would be transported to the spaceship.

    Rejecting belief in an afterlife would surely eliminate these motives for suicide.

    Wastes Time, Energy and Resources

    The idea of an afterlife causes people to engage in nonproductive activities instead of actions that improve the world. This can be seen among many ancient peoples, but a famous example involves the Egyptians and their practice of mummifying the dead. The Egyptians felt that preservation of one's corpse was necessary for a satisfactory existence in the great beyond.

    For the purpose of preserving their bodies in the afterlife, members of the Egyptian nobility and the wealthy class spent huge sums for mummification and other means of maintaining their remains in perpetuity. And tremendous amounts of labor and resources were used to construct the pyramids, the purpose of which was mainly to protect the bodies of deceased Egyptian kings.

    Robert Ingersoll describes the wastefulness of these practices by stating that the Egyptians "were believers in immortality, and spent almost their entire substance upon the dead. The living were impoverished to enrich the dead. The grave absorbed the wealth of Egypt. The industry of a nation was buried."

    To some extent the same type of problem occurred in czarist Russia. Many members of the nobility and upper classes bestowed vast wealth on the Russian Orthodox Church for the purpose of having daily prayers recited and other intercessions made for their departed souls. The riches and time spent praying could have been much better used to benefit the millions of Russians who lived in dire poverty.

    Similarly in the Catholic Church, considerable emphasis has been placed on prayers and masses for the deceased. These practices have been a source of immense income for the church, as have the indulgences the church sold supposedly for improving the well-being of people's souls or those of their relatives in the afterlife.

    Mormons spend an enormous amount of time and money studying genealogical records in order to baptize deceased relatives, ancestors and others into the Mormon Church. The founder of that church, Joseph Smith, taught that departed souls can accept what is done for them on earth.

    Edmund D. Cohen points out that preoccupation with an afterlife leads some orthodox Christians to devalue and ignore many important matters in this life. He says that for such persons, "all but a few aspects of earthly life are reduced to unimportance, and the next life is 'where the action is.'" That attitude could hardly be less conducive to solving the world's problems.

    In fact, extreme focus on an afterlife is often welcomed and encouraged by the "powers-that-be" in this world. They know that people engrossed with thoughts of other worlds are less likely to notice or care about exploitation and abuse on earth.

    Likewise, when persons believe that injustices will be punished in another world, they aren't so concerned about correcting wrongs or seeing that the perpetrators of it are punished in this world. These views make it much easier for evildoers to prosper with impunity in the here and now.
    In summarizing the problem of people wasting this life for the sake of an alleged afterlife, Corliss Lamont states: "As long . . . as a future life is conceived to exist, people will devote to the thought of it much time and attention that could be used for earthly enterprises."

    Conclusion

    The unfounded idea of an afterlife leads to much unnecessary evil. If people were taught there is no more evidence to believe that humans are immortal than there is to believe that trees and insects are, a great deal of harm would be avoided and much more focus placed on improving this world.

    Of course, believing in an afterlife is a source of consolation for many, in that their pain from the loss of loved ones can be alleviated by the notion that they will all be reunited in the hereafter. But the serious harm caused by that idea appears to far outweigh the beneficial effects.

    Today, the terrorism that the belief produces - particularly if the terrorists obtain nuclear weapons - is a threat to the lives of millions around the world and to the continued existence of the United States and Western civilization.

    For those who cannot bear the thought of the final extinction of themselves and their loved ones, the hope for an afterlife - as opposed to the belief in one - can be a harmless source of solace. As Robert Ingersoll said, "Hope is the consolation of the world."

    In the nineteenth century, the agnostic Thomas H. Huxley seemed to leave room for that hope by saying: "I neither deny nor affirm the immortality of man. I see no reason for believing in it, but, on the other hand, I have no means of disproving it."

    Simply hoping for a life after death, rather than presuming to know that it exists, brings consolation to some and need not result in a devaluation of this life. People who employ a scientific outlook and have that hope know that it is very possible, or even highly probable, that this is their one and only life. They therefore will not throw it away or think little of throwing away the lives of others.

    But it is important that this hope - which was held by great humanistic thinkers such as Robert Ingersoll and Thomas Paine - does not develop into a belief and the accompanying evils. The results in today's world could be catastrophic on an unthinkable scale.

    Those who cannot give up the idea of the hereafter would be wise to follow Cicero's advice that a future state is "to be hoped for rather than believed."

     

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  • Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife | 115 comments | Create New Account
    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    Allah or Christian God more Cruel?
    Authored by: annikee on Sunday, November 25 2007 @ 05:44 AM GMT+4
    Wow! Bravo for that, whoever you are/were, anonymous.

    ---
    A lie runs around the world while the truth is tying its laces.
    Anonymous
    Authored by: Floyd on Sunday, November 25 2007 @ 03:13 PM GMT+4

    It is also interesting to see how many "other" Anonymous' there were in the early days of this site.



    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 01:52 AM GMT+4
    That last line: "Those who cannot give up the idea of the hereafter would be wise to follow Cicero's advice that a future state is "to be hoped for rather than believed."

    Certainly rings true. I suspect this is a subject that few can really handle even thinking about, it hits TOO close to home for all of us.

    It can be so hard to even slightly consider there not being an afterlife, that this subject is certain to bring out anger, pity and even rage in those who see it.

    Unfortunately, I do suspect that in everything from our current regimes handling of the environment, to war and terrorism, and more . . . the clear shortsightedness is definately partially to blame on people thinking "ah well, if things go to hell here -- we'll just move on to a better place anyways!"

    Seems like there is nothing wrong with very much hoping there is an afterlife, but that we need to care for our nest, and for each other -- just in case this is our only shot at it! Spreading health, peace, love and joy would ENSURE that we experience a heaven, right here and now! And then if there IS something after, *cool* -- then we get that too!
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 02:14 AM GMT+4
    Martin Luther King, Dorothy Day, A. J. Muste and many other Christian Pacifists were not terrorists.

    For the first three hundred years of it's history, the Church taught Pacifism, and to be a soldier & a Christian was an onymoron. The Church sold out and was co-opted, and the Pacifist tradition continued outside of the mainstream. True disciples of Christ cannot embrace his teachings and also embrace war. Those who call themselves Christian and support war, clearly are not following Christ, but are following church leaders. If every Christian it the world is a hypocrit, that does not mean that Christ's life & teachings are not valid.

    Every philosophy -- whether it is religious or political -- ends up being used as a "justification" for mass murder. How else can human beings overcome their conscience, which naturally abhors murder, except by allowing themselves to be convinced that it is for a noble cause. If Christ's teachings indeed lead to mass murder as the writer contends, then can the writer think of any philosophy whose adherents gained power which did not then end up "justifying" violence? Even Nehru and the Indian Congress Party, ostensibly founded on the principles of Gandhian non-violence, ended up supporting war.

    Buddhism may be the notable exception, but I do not know enough about the history of Buddhism to be certain.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 02:19 AM GMT+4
    You are right, grasshopper. There is no after-life. There is only life. Without beginning, so hence, without end.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 02:22 AM GMT+4
    Zen Buddhists though are not so arrogant and insecure as to need to believe there is a special afterlife waiting for them anyways! No expectations, though they would be happily suprised to die and find such waiting!
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 12:38 PM GMT+4
    Sounds great when you read about it in a book. Have you ever been to a Zen Buddhist service? Solemn ritual, gongs, bells, hokus-pokus, incantations warding off ghosts!
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 12:54 PM GMT+4
    Hmmmm, no - my experience in it was just through martial arts study and reading. No experience with a formal such ceremony. I would indeed find such a service silly! Though of course I imagine people from their continent would find a Church service here equally silly!
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 12:55 PM GMT+4
    Please, give us MORE wisdom - oh *mighty* teacher!
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 01:26 PM GMT+4
    YOu should know by now that you need no teacher... do you want to be enslaved?
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 01:34 PM GMT+4
    There are a number of stories about what happens to a teaching once the disciples codify it into doctrine.

    One of my favorites is about the enlightened master who would tie his cat to piece of furniture while he was meditating so that the cat would not be able to jump on him and interrupt the meditiation. When his followers saw that, they all got cats so that they also could tie their cat while meditating. A hunder years later in that area there were two factions, bitterly disputing with one another as to whether you should tie the cat by the left hind leg, or by the right hind leg.

    When I read the gospel accounts of Jesus in Galilee, walking from village to village, speaking kind & wise words, and helping people; a pure, clear, and loving spirit comes across. Yet look at all the horror which has been perpetrated in his name.

    The Bal Shem Tov (Rabbi Israel) the founder of the Hasidic movement, challenged the religious establishment -- wearing the clothes of a peasant instead of those of a rabbi, working on the High Holy Days to cut firewood for widows instead of attending services, and generally flaunting the pieties of his day. As a scholar, he quietly studied all night, secretly, and avoided showing off his erudition by pretending to be an ignorant, illiterate lout during the daytime. In spite of all that, his wisdom was so great that it could not be hidden, and he ended up with followers, who created a dogmatic sect. What has started out as one man's personal alternative to hide-bound, orthodoxy, became a new orthodoxy even more ritualistic & inflexible than the old.

    There is a great tendency we humans have to make certain individuals icons and to end up worshipping the fringe of their garments. Too often we tend to accept the idea that "great" people are somehow different than ourselves, accepting the false notion that what we have to do is to make a good selection about which "great" men or women to follow.

    My question is whether the challenge to us as human beings is to make a good decision about which philosophy to adhere to; or if the authentic struggle is deeper & more personal?



    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 01:37 PM GMT+4
    Actually, those who just decide to assume the role of teacher to others - come off as arrogant and enslaving.

    However, if you believe that when we seek out someone to teach us something, we are automatically enslaved? Then that also sounds foolish. There are bad, and tyrannical teachers, but there are also wonderful and giving teachers.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 02:22 PM GMT+4
    There are also different types of teaching. Most teaching is like pouring tea into a vessel: The teacher imparts information & ideas. These ideas & information may be very good.

    Another type of teaching connects the student with his or her own deepest knowledge. A teacher whom I have been involved with for the past two years has made me aware of my internal sensations & feelings and the connects between what is going on with my body, and my personal history & emotions. She did not do this be inparting information to me; but by asking me questions in an atmosphere conducive to focusing.

    Unlike a traditional teacher who knows more than you, and shares what he or she knows; clearly it is not my teacher who has the knowledge which I have been connecting with. Her role has been to facilitate my ability to become aware of what I know. The result is to dissolve decades old emotional log-jams (which have become physically imbedded and are now being released) to the benefit of my healing.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 04:57 PM GMT+4
    you have met the great and powerful Wizard of Oz!!!

    :)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 08:10 PM GMT+4
    While there are terrorists whose ideological "justification" is believe in an afterlife; there are also terrorists whose atheistic beliefs are their "justification."

    There are also Pacifists who base their beliefs on religious principles, including belief in an afterlife, and there are atheist Pacifist

    Clearly there is no logic to the terrorism is caused by belief in an afterlife.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 10:00 PM GMT+4
    Hey, he's right. I have taken his words to heart and abandoned my belief in a heaven or hell, in a reward or punishment after this life for the things one does here. As my example illustrates, it will surely lead to a better society and a better world. I have decided what to do with this new lease on life, now that my personal happiness here and now is all that matters. First, I am going to steal some peoples identities and run up tens of thousands of dollars in debt in their names. I probably won't get caught, I could use the money, and since there's no punishment after death for such things, looks like it's a go! If I hit another car in a parking lot, I will be sure to take off before anyone notices, instead of putting my name, phone # and insurance info on the windshield. Don't want that on my driving record or my insurance to go up, might as well run and see if I can get away with it, right? I used to concern myself with sexual morality as well, for fear that I might get a woman pregnant and have to take responsibilities for my actions. But now that there is no reward or punishment after this life, I don't have to take responsibility for my actions anymore, I can just take off and leave the woman holding the bag for all the needs of the child. How liberating! I only wish that I had thought of this years ago! What was I thinking? And about this election in November, I had planned on voting for Kerry, but now that I realize that this is it, the here and now only, I have changed my mind and decided to vote for Bush instead. After all, I did get that check in the mail for $600 for his tax cut. Sure the Bush tax cuts have decimated social security, medicare, and medical research grant funding, but those programs only help the elderly, the sick and the disabled. None of that applies to me, so what do I care if those programs have been slashed to pay for my tax cut? Go Bush. As you can see, this fellow's suggestions have changed me for the better and I'm sure that if all of society took up his suggestion, we'd all be much better off!
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 10:09 PM GMT+4
    Wow! I didn't realize people needed eternal damnation or reward to do good! Kinda' like Pavlov's dog.

    The OZ has spoken!
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 11:02 PM GMT+4
    The point is that religion has been the most effective tool for evil people to control people. Certainly we all know many wonderful people of various religions, and no religions.

    I quibble not with peoples right to believe anything they want. My concern is when these beliefs are part of how our tax dollars are spent. My concern is when these beliefs encourage things like environmental destruction, suppression of women and other groups, and warfare.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 11:04 PM GMT+4
    Yep - those are the perpetual babies of the world!
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 10:13 PM GMT+4
    some people just won't do good unless they know it's to avoid a spanking :)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 10:14 PM GMT+4
    That dense rant, difficult to read because it was just one huge paragraph, sounds like spew from the mouth of the American Taliban.

    That is, the Islamic Taliban chooses the Koran - you choose the Bible. Fundamentalists of this stripe are working to turn America into an Iran . . . just under a different book.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 15 2004 @ 10:16 PM GMT+4
    Human beings seem to have a great capacity to fool themselves. I have found that both religious people and anti-religious people can screw you good. Whatever cues there may be to a person's character, and whatever measures may serve to protect yourself from people who would betray a trust; their religious beliefs or non-beliefs are completely irrelevant.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Ernie Guilman on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 02:11 AM GMT+4
    Terrorism is not just the result of belief in an afterlife. What you say about the bin Ladens and Zawahiris of the world promising gardens and virgins is true, but religion does not occur in a vaccuum and it is only part of a complex topic called Islamic Fundamentalism. I.F. is appealing to different people for different reasons, and although they often intertwine, the Taliban, Al-Qeida, the Islamic Jihad, etc. all have their own reasons for embracing I.F.-------

    The Taliban rose in direct reponse to the heinous conditions the Mujaheddin Warlords had imposed on their country men after the Soviets left in the late 80's---many Afghans despised the perverted interpretations of the Koran that the Taliban imposed on them, and I wonder if over time the Taliban would have either had to moderate its positions or it would have lost power all together, many of the Taliban soldiers who would be considered the true believers in I.F. were actually foreigners who had studied in the madrasses in Pakistan---considered to be the nurseries for I.F.ers----based much on the Wahabbi sect of Islam which originated from Saudi Arabia. Wahabbis believe in the strictist interpretations of the Koran and this can be seen in full force in Saudi Arabia today------woman are all but baby makers and house caretakers, the young men are well educated but have no outlet to use that education due to an opressive government which is based in the laws of the Koran--------bin Laden and his Al-Qeida followers are not only very pious muslims, but they are angry-- angry at their governments for humiliating their people, but most importantly angry at Western Culture for having its hands in their governments and for corrupting their peoples with the "evil" lifestyles we lead--------

    Life in these countries is hard, and they certainly don't enjoy many of the freedoms we take for granted, and its really no wonder that these young men end up killing themselves, because at least bin Laden makes them believe in themselves (however perverted that sounds). I.F. has only gained a foothold because the conditions exsist for that to happen, it is like....(please forgive me)...the Perfect Storm-----throw humiliation, depression, desperation, anger, nationalism and religion into a pot and you get I.F.--------and the afterlife promises are only a small part of it. Belief in the afterlife is a hallmark of almost every religion--ever---and I.F.'s use of it is really not the problem, the problem is in trying to alleviate the conditions which make I.F. the most viable choice for desperate people----
    I apologize for my gross summation of a topic that is thousands of years in the making--I'm sure one of you could have done this better---if anyone could add to this I would greatly appreciate it, this is a very important topic for all of us to be discussing and we are now part of this history whether we know want to or not------------Ernie
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 02:19 AM GMT+4
    I think much of that is very well thought out, if it is considered in perspective of the historical horrors perpetuated by C.F.

    You know C.F. right?

    You kept saying I.F. so I assumed C.F. would stand out just as strongly to you?

    Christian Fundamentalism?
    State Religion Is Not About Jesus
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 02:43 AM GMT+4
    I agree with you. I personally am a very sanctimonious, pious, religious zealot. But when I visited the Vermont Statehouse for a legislative session and a Methodist minister delivered the "invocation," which was a prayer praising Jesus Christ, I loudly muttered my disapproval and walked out. It felt to me like prayer by ambush.

    At the time, my regular place of worship was the Methodist Church, and I would have been happy to join in that very same prayer with a body of worshippers who had come together intending to pray. But I was appalled to see the legislators bowing their heads in an ostentacious pubic display, which was, in fact, a mockery of any sincere religious devotion.

    Later I had a chance to discuss the prayer with the Lt. Governor, Douglas A. Racine, who told me that the invocation is usually non-sectarian and that it was unusual for it to be so specifically Christian (I would object to any government-sponsored prayer, non-sectarian or otherwise). He said that years ago there had been a Presbyterian minister serving as a state representative, who objected to public prayer in the Statehouse on the grounds of separation of church and state.

    Later that day, I ran into the minister and spoke with him about his invocation. He was a young man, wearing an impeccable suit, with a pewter pin of hands in praying position. He said that originally he had intended to offer a more non-sectarian prayer, but that certain legislators with wanted a prayer specifically invoking Jesus Christ, and that he had done it because "they" wanted him to. I wish now that I had thought of asking him why he was obeying "them" instead of serving God, but I didn't think of it.

    Once home, I wrote to the Secretary of State about the incident. She replied with a thoughtful, personal letter, sympathetic, but saying that the way the state government is set up the legislature has great leeway in making it's own rules, and that there is nothing she could do about it. Litigating on Constitutional grounds just seemed to be more of an undertaking than I could handle.

    I wrote to the minister of the local Methodist Church. He understood my concern, and told me that he would put me in touch with his brother, who had done some scholarly research on the subject, but he never followed up on it, and I did not press it either.

    I wrote to my representative, an independent from District 2. He responded with a telephone call telling me how much he enjoys publicly praying & publicly saluting the flag on the floor of the Assembly.

    In the Gospel accounts, Jesus decries the hypocrites who make a big show of praying in public, and he tells his disciples to pray secretly. It clear to me that the ostentatious public worship which is so loved by our representatives has nothing whatever to do with Jesus Christ (his name was not actually "Jesus," but Yeshua) and it has very little to do with sincerity. It is the modern replacement of Roman state religion.






    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Ernie Guilman on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 10:23 AM GMT+4
    Christianity and Islam have been on different sides of the same coin since the rise of Islam in the 7th century A.D. (Islam is younger than the Judaism or Christianity and thus views itself as the purer of the three faiths)----Judaism,Christianity, and Islam have all developed radically-motivated sects hell bent on purifying their faith and ridding it of corrupt influences---Islamic Fundamentalism certainly could not have risen without a "nemesis" religion like Christianity or Judaism to act as a symbol of all that is wrong in the world, and in fact to them, Christianty and Judaism are failures as far as religion goes because they obviously cannot prevent Western Culture from spiralling down into sin and corruption--------My intent was only to comment on Islamic Fundamentalism and some of its root causes-- I'm not sure what direction your post is trying to go in because you wrote so little---I can't tell if your trying to blame Christian Fundamentalism for giving rise to Islamic Fundamentalism or if you just trying to expand the scope of the current argument---maybe you could write about what you call Christian Fundamentalism a little more so that we could see its contextuality with Islamic Fundamentalism--- Ernie
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 02:01 PM GMT+4
    The point was that fundamentalism of any stripe is an issue, because its adherents tend to become militant about forcing their beliefs on others.

    Christianity has a history of its fundamentalists perpetuating horror and oppression as well. We need not get into any great philisophical analysis to see the simple historical truth that fundamentalism under the banner of many franchises (religions) has spread suffering.

    People have the right to believe anything they want, they just need to keep it to themselves!
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 04:04 PM GMT+4
    I'm not saying all people need the threat of eternal damnation to do good, but don't you think it does help to have that threat there? Certainly there are SOME people in our society who live their lives in a more moral way than they would have had the threat of hell never existed. And wouldn't the cumulative effect of that be a better society?
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 04:10 PM GMT+4
    Since 9/11/01, a number of people, primarily muslims and their apologists, and now apparently atheists as well, have tried to equate Islam with Christianity on the issue of violence. They are not and never have been the same. I am quite aware that persons calling themselves Christians have committed atrocities in the past, but those persons can't point to text in the NEW testament authorizing their actions. (the OLD testament was written hundreds of years before Jesus was born). The koran contains at least nine passages which specifically authorize violence against non muslims. Scripturally speaking, Christianity and Islam are very different on the issue of violence, despite the politically correct's best efforts to say otherwise.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 04:16 PM GMT+4
    No, because that cumulative effect is outweighed by the division and judgementalism between people and society caused by the same belief.

    Additionally, current policy's (or lack of) concerning the environment, resource depletion and etc -- can only be self-justified by many of these people *because* they believe this is not the only life they get. So the biggest crime of all (killing possibly ALL life on earth) may well be being perpetrated largely because of this belief.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 04:19 PM GMT+4
    This reminds me of an interesting equation set forth by the mathematician, Blaise Pascal. In analyzing the differences between believers in God and non-believers in God, Pascal realized that the believers would be better off and the non-believers would be worse off in the end. He figured it this way:
    If the non-believer is right, then both, the believer and the non-believer, will become nothing after death. They will each end up in the same place. ON the other hand, if the believer is right, the believer will go to heaven and (theoretically, anyway) the non believer would go to Hell. So the believer's prospects after death are either nothing or heaven, and the non-believer's prospects are either nothing or hell. So who has the more attractive set of post death prospects?
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 04:26 PM GMT+4
    I disagree. Outside the U. $., environmental protection is considered a Christian duty. In places like Europe, Canada, Australia, and other nations that tried to pass the Kyoto Protocol through (before Bush wrecked it), this earth is thought of as God's creation and property. He alone has the right to destroy it and it is a duty to do what we can to prevent greedy corporations from destroying God's earth. I think too many people are viewing these issues from an exclusively american perspective. I listen to short-wave radio and get news in from all over the world, I would recommend it to anyone.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 04:33 PM GMT+4
    First off, to equate anybody *daring* to question Christianity as being part of some "politically correct" movement is flat out TV lobotomized cliche-speak!

    Second - of course anytime the Old Testament says anything scary, Christians say "oh thats the Old Testament" (so either its fiction, or God suddenly became a nicer guy between books?). But then they are perfectly happy to cherry pick the sections of the OT they LIKE. We are hearing a lot lately about where homosexuality is called an abdomination -- thats in the OT. Heck, GENESIS is from the OT, the TEN COMMANDMENTS are from the OT. Which is it, is the whole book now irrelevant . . . or just the parts you don't like?

    Anyways, the New Testament was certainly humanized a bit more. But is still has quite a bit of horror in it. Should we start throwing Bible quotes around? Oh thats right, if you don't agree with t quote it will be "out of context'' but if YOU quote one, its fine. Right?

    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 04:37 PM GMT+4
    The best teacher learns from their student.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 04:45 PM GMT+4
    LOL! Pascal's Wager! Always comes up, and the people who bring it up think its such a smoking gun!

    Now bear with me, its said that somebody who goes with the simplistic cliche of Pascal's Wager doesn't have the literary dedication to really read and think about it. But I don't believe that. Prove them wrong and read this all and respond to it with equal thought and study.

    On the internet, the wager is the most common argument heard from Christians, and the regulars of theology discussion groups feel cheated if a week goes by without someone bringing it up (this rarely happens), only to be shot down in flames (this always happens).

    Pascal's Wager is quite simple, and superficially appears to be a strong and compelling argument for theism. However, a little close scrutiny soon reveals the flawed logic and reasoning behind it, which actually makes it one of the weakest arguments a theist could come up with.

    Pascal's Wager can be presented in many different forms, usually something like this:

    "If you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything."

    Alternatively :

    "It makes more sense to believe in God than to not believe. If you believe, and God exists, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If you do not believe, and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief. If He does not exist, you have lost nothing either way. "

    It amounts to hedging your bets. Seems the smart way to go right?

    The worst case for the theist is no afterlife, the worst case for the atheist is an eternity in Hell. You can see why this appears to be a potentially convincing argument - it is sensible to choose the least-worst case

    The most obvious problems with Pascal's Wager are:

    -- How do you know which God to believe in? There are plenty to choose from, and if you pick the wrong one, you could be in big trouble (e.g. what if you choose Jesus, but get to heaven only to come face-to-trunk with Ganesh?). This is known as the "Avoiding the wrong Hell problem". If a dozen people of different religions came to you with Pascal's Wager, how could you possibly choose between them? After all, many religions are quite specific that they are the One True Religion, and not any others. Jesus Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the light. None shall come to the Father except through me." [emphasis added] and no doubt most other religions make similar claims. If a Christian considers the Wager as strong support for his faith, surely he must accept that it is equally valid for all other religions when presented to himself?

    -- God is not stupid right? Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven? How can you sincerely believe in a God simply out of convenience?

    -- If there is no God, you have still lost something. You have wasted a good portion of your life performing the various devotional rituals, attending Churches, praying, reading scripture and discussing your deity with His other followers. Not to mention giving your hard-earned money to the church, wasting your intelligence on theological endeavours and boring the hell out of people who really don't want to hear your Good News.

    -- Can you get away with just sort of generally believing in a Supreme Being, without specifically believing in one particular Deity? Probably not - God will still know what you're up to. Also, many Gods are quite particular about how they should be worshipped. Many born-again Christians will tell you that the only way to Heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour - nothing more and nothing less. General-Deity-Belief and being nice simply won't do. Many people believe that all the different religions are merely alternative routes to the same destination. Nice and tolerant (if a little warm'n'fuzzy) though this may be, there is no valid reason to accept this stance over the fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist position : if the fundies are right, then the un-Saved liberal theists are in just as much trouble as the nonbelievers.

    -- Few, if any, atheists disbelieve in deities out of choice. It's not as if we know the god is really there, but somehow refuse to believe in it (for example, see if you can choose to truly believe that Australia does not exist). Most atheists disbelieve simply because they know of no compelling evidence to suggest that any sort of god exists. If you want an atheist to believe, show her some good evidence, don't just say it's in her best interests to believe even if there is no god. A person cannot choose to sincerely believe in something, just because it is pragmatic to do so. Sure, you could say all the right prayers and attend church regularly, but that is not the same thing as actually believing, and any God worth his salt would obviously see straight through that.

    -- It is quite insulting. It amounts to a thinly veiled threat, little better than saying "Believe in my God or He'll send you to Hell" (in fact, this is often the form it is presented in). Also, the theist making this threat assumes that the atheist believes there is a Hell or a God to send her there in the first place. If you don't believe in Hell anyway, it's not a scary thing to be threatened with - a bit like saying "If you don't start believing in unicorns, one will trample you to death while you're sleeping." Who would be worried by that?

    -- It is often self-refuting, depending on the person's description of God. If you believe that God will forgive anyone for anything, or judge people purely on how they lived their life and not what they believed, or that everyone gets to Heaven regardless (unless maybe they were genocidal cannibal serial killers), then the Wager is meaningless. You might as well say "Believe in God, or you'll... erm... go to Heaven anyway." In such a case, it doesn't make a scrap of difference whether the person believes or not.

    -----------------------------------

    Pascal's Wager is hopelessly flawed. It sounds good at first, but poke it with the spike of reason and it quickly deflates, letting out all the hot air.

    How about a much more loving and rational alternative - The Freethinker's Wager


    "It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in Him, and so making the world a better place will have also ensured you a place in heaven."

    (And if God is not benevolent, he's gonna git ya whatever you do! So why worry! <g>)
    Pascals Wager
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 04:55 PM GMT+4
    Thanks! That was a very in-depth look at it.

    I've heard the wager lots of times (always from Christians), and it always seemed very obvious to me to simply ask:

    "Why don't you believe in Allah? If you believe, and Allah exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and Allah exists, you lose everything."

    and then follow right away with:

    "Why don't you believe in Shiva? If you believe, and Shiva exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and Shiva exists, you lose everything."

    And so on and so on. And the New Age (rhymes with Sewage) idea that they are ''all the same god'' is very contradicted by the details of many of these faiths. You must very specifically worship the RIGHT God(s)/Goddess(es) or else you are toast.

    But of course the folks who spew Pascal's Wager believe the evidence is so clearly on THEIR side that its the only rational religion to believe in (whether they be Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, etc).
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 07:25 PM GMT+4
    A fool is some one who can only learn from a sage. A sage can learn from anyone, even from a fool.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 08:27 PM GMT+4
    I'll bet you don't get a reply from him/her! If you do, it will be a brief self-rightous hit and run, not actually a true analysis of the ideas like you put out.

    Thanks for that!
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: darqmatr on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 09:56 PM GMT+4
    Be true to thyself... I think Shakespeare had it right. And the few sayings that can be attributed, without doubt, to sages of past. Because a person can "believe" anything, and be convinced of many things. But to know oneself--that is quite another story. In the end, the spirit spends eternity with itself, regardless of all the writings and beliefs.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 10:45 PM GMT+4
    >>the end, the spirit spends eternity with itself, regardless of all the writings and beliefs.<<

    Or at least as far as it (the spirit) knows, since "eternity'' unfortunately is really about 78 years in humans.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: darqmatr on Tuesday, March 16 2004 @ 10:49 PM GMT+4
    I guess that will play out in time :)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 12:17 AM GMT+4
    OY!!! Here we go with cutting of frontal lobes again!

    I am just a simple, iBrattleboro trying to read these discussions so that I can understand the arguments on both sides and learn something so that I can be a more informed citizen and a more developed human being.

    And it is really difficult for me to follow the logic and understand that facts when some of the discussion participants accuse the other participant of "TV lobotomized cliche-speak!" Frankly, pinning a derogatory name on something without further explanation is not a sufficient argument for proving a point or discrediting the other person's point.

    I am really interested in knowing what is important & meaningful to each particupant, and would hope that you could reach me with more thoughtful arguments.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 12:22 AM GMT+4
    Sorry, that was posted after just having been on another forum listening to some "Pascal's Wager" babble (which recently reared its head here too, unrelated).

    In spite of the inflammatory language I used. I would say I did lay out the basic conflict with Xtians whining out of the hard stuff with a "oh thats OLD Testament".
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 12:22 AM GMT+4
    If the current consensus in scientific cosmological theories accurately describe our world ("universe") then it is only devine will that time travels in the direction it does. I could just as easily travel in the opposite direction. Taking this into consideration, is there any effect on your discussions about eternity?
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: darqmatr on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 12:47 AM GMT+4
    Time is related to movement. The planets traveling around the sun, etc... So without movement, time ceases to exist. Movement is tied to physical "matter." Without matter, there is no time. Hence, in the spiritual realm (am not talking religion, here) time does not exist outside of the physical boundaries the spirit creates.

    The spirit is free to impose/create boundaries as it sees fit in order to explore itself. Exploration, and creation, exist in the context of relationship with other spiritual beings. Which is why it's nice to share :)

    just my 2cents...
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 12:55 AM GMT+4
    Divine will? Huh?
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 12:58 AM GMT+4
    >>Hence, in the spiritual realm (am not talking religion, here)<<

    Let me guess, not "religious" but Tarot Cards, Homeopathy, Astrology, Magnetic Healing, Astral Travel and maybe Alien A** Abduction?

    :)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: darqmatr on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 01:01 AM GMT+4
    And if you really want to explore something interesting, consider Einstein's equation, E=mc(2). If Energy (E) of an entity is constant, then if "c" (the speed of light) slows down, "m" must increase to balance the equation. In laymen's terms, when light slows down, it turns into matter. So where did physical matter come from? Why light, of course :) The real question is, where did light come from...

    We've really got a great future ahead of us. It's so goddamn wonderful sometimes it hurts. But the truly great thing about it is, it occurs in the context of community :)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: darqmatr on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 01:15 AM GMT+4
    no... your will :)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 01:26 AM GMT+4
    Ok, I can accept that. Though it makes me feel a bit dirty and stupid in a NewAge (Rhymes with SewAge) sort of way! :)


    ----------------

    Its important to keep an open mind, just not so "open" that your brains fall out! -- Anon
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: darqmatr on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 02:06 AM GMT+4
    yep---you got it :)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: darqmatr on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 02:09 AM GMT+4
    well, it's like anything else. you try it. if it works, ya keep it :)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 02:15 AM GMT+4
    Please . . . tell me you are just kidding?
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 02:24 AM GMT+4
    My father is a big time traditional M.D., my mother an artist and professional astrologer/tarot-card reader. They divorced quickly <g> But I moved back and forth between them every year. I grew up with both around me, and I love them both very much.

    Think my experience is diverse enough?

    Through living through being a vegan and having a daily chart and card reading dictate what I was supposed to do that day. To living through having a medicine and/or left-brain contemplation be the solution to everything . . . I've spent a bunch of time in both viewpoints, and between them.

    Though western views can become closed minded and overused like any. Overall - scientific healing methods and practices have always clearly had a statistical edge over the solutions offered by those who worship a warm and fuzzy cultural mish-mash of confusion. (The words "energy" or "spirit" always the best standby to describe any vague or not understood concept)

    The placebo effect is real. If you believe in homeopathy and such, you will get some help from it. But no more or less help than is seen in placebo studies. And by the same token, if what you really need is an anti-biotic, then no matter how much you believe in the sugar pills . . . you will die without the real thing.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 03:38 AM GMT+4
    What do you have against babies?
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 03:40 AM GMT+4
    If the placebo makes my life better & healthier, I'll prefer it to drugs any day!
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 04:26 AM GMT+4
    Well, thats a very nice thought compared to most Christians actions . . . but its not what the Bible says to do.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 04:28 AM GMT+4
    Nothing at all, I love babies! I just don't want them involved in politics! :)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 04:32 AM GMT+4
    Uh, wow -- you missed the point entirely!

    Absolutely the placebo effect is a valuable one. Every time you feel better after taking a homeopathic ''medicine'' -- you are benefiting from it. And there is growing debate in the M.D. community about how they could use the placebo effect (i.e. sugar pills) and not feel the wrath of greedy lawyers because of it.

    But the point is that there are SOME things that the mind cannot heal as effectively as a drug, and there are CHILDREN DYING in this country because their new age (rhymes with sewage) brain-dead parents have decided that antibiotics or such is BAD and so insist on ''alternative'' medicines . . . and their kids DIE. There are cases going to court now, awareness of this problem is growing.

    You know, believe whatever idiocy you want to believe -- but when kids die because you refuse a treatment they KNOW will save the kid, you should be sent to prison.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 06:07 AM GMT+4
    Are you accusing me of keeping kids from medicine that they need??? So, who believes in idiocy and who misses the point? :-}

    Speaking of missing the point: Classical homeopathy involves a lot more than dispensing sugar pills. Not everyone who calls themselves a homeopath is like...um, well, I shouldn't mention his name, should I?

    Classical homeopathy involves one or more three hour in-depth interview, which, if done by a true healer, brings out essential elemental dynamics affecting your life. Assuming that you are right and the constitutional, homeopathic remedy is, indeed, a pacebo; this sugar pill only works as an integral focal point of the entire encounter.

    I experienced this and it changed my life. The dramatic unfolding of the encounter, gently caused me to confront and begin to understand my personality type, and how to untangle the psychological artifacts tangling my life. If allopathic M.D.s think they are just going to fool around with some sugar pills and replicate a therapeutic process... good luck to them.

    As for antibiotics: I avoid them whenever possible, but I went to a medical person who was up on the latest research and asked her to prescribe the most effective antibiotics available to knock out my sinus infection after one of our local "new age" healers (who inaccurately claims to practice homeopathy) did nothing for my other than remove a chunk of money from my wallet with his hokus-pokus, nonesensical play-acting.

    Of course I would not send a child with a broken arm to a homeopath. M.D.s are trained to treat human beings as though they were machines and they are quite good at mechanical problems like broken limbs. A real homeopath can be effective in treating deep-seated, disfunctional manifestations underlying chronic problems.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 11:57 AM GMT+4
    Ah, there you go - your one bad experience with antibiotics shows there is no value in them for anybody! :)

    Your use of the word "allopathic'' makes even having this conversation silly. The word is not an objective term, its one used as derogatory and judgemental.

    Here is a definition for anybody unaware:

    Allopathy is a term coined by Samuel Christian Hahnemann 300 years ago to refer to the mainstream medicine of the time, and to be distinguished from the new disipline he was selling called "homeopathy."

    Allopathic has become a derogatory term used by practitioners of alternative medicine to refer to their scientific counterparts. The implication is that mainstream physicians focus narrowly upon disease and ignore the patient as a whole person, and that they treat symptoms without addresses the underlying cause of ailments. The term Holistic is now used to refer to treatments which address all aspects of a patient's being, mind, body, and soul.

    These characterizations, however, are not accurate. Scientific medicine has embraced the "biopsychosocial" model of medicine, which emphasizes the need to view the patient as a whole person, and evaluate and address not only the diseases which may afflict the patient, but the psychological and social factors which influence the patient's health, as well as the affects of their disease on the rest of their lives. Essentially, mainstream medicine is holistic. Further, scientific medicine seeks to find the underlying cause of human disease whenever and wherever possible, and has been far more successful in this than any "philosophy" based medicine. Treating symptoms, of course, is still done, because such treatment can have a significant impact on quality of life. Philosophy based practitioners claim to be treating the underlying cause of illness, but in reality they simply invent a fanciful or mystical cause for all disease, then apply an equally fanciful and unproven modality to treat the imagined cause.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 12:03 PM GMT+4
    Yep, there are good doctors and crappy doctors like in any profession. But the best family practitioners really do focus on the whole person - body & mind. History, lifestyle and future.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 12:09 PM GMT+4
    Geez, we need to start a new thread on Homeopathy - its buried too deeply here to get the attention it deserves.

    Here is a bit a friend wrote on this subject 4 years ago:

    Homeopathy - all the idiocy that fits

    Of all the things called "alternative medicine" the most ridiculous must be homeopathy. It's even sillier than iridology.

    For those unfamiliar with the origins and principles of homeopathy, it was invented in the late 18th century by Samuel Hahnemann. It had no less success than the conventional medicine of the time and probably saved the lives of many people, simply on the basis that people get better from many illnesses without any intervention, so doing nothing (which is essentially what homeopathy is) could often produce better outcomes than bleeding, purging, cauterisation and amputation. The difference is that medicine has moved on and no longer does those things (or does them differently and for different reasons).

    Homeopathy still relies on the principles set out at its invention. One of these principles is the Law of Similarities, which says that something which produces symptoms in large doses will be useful to treat diseases that have those symptoms. To determine what can be used for what, various things are subject to "proving" where they are administered in increasing doses until a reaction is observed. This reaction is then recorded, and when a patient presents with the same signs the homeopath can use a preparation of the cure to fix things. Jalapeno peppers would be a candidate for the treatment of excessive sweating and cat hair has potential as a treatment for hay fever. Presumably cyanide would provide a useful treatment for death.

    To avoid the obvious problem, a second principle is invoked: the Law of Infinitesimals. This states that the more dilute a substance is, the better it will work against the "proved" symptoms. There are two sorts of dilution in common use - X and C. To make an X dilution, you take one tenth of the sample and mix it with nine parts of diluent. To make a 10X preparation, the dilution process is carried out ten times, each time taking one tenth of the mixture and diluting it. At each stage, the mixture is "succussed", which means hit in a certain fashion. Sometimes succussion requires the container to be tapped against a particular object, such as a leather-bound book. Preparations can be made at 6X, 10X etc. More powerful preparations can be made using the C method, where the dilution is one in a hundred each time. I have heard of M preparations where the factor is one thousand, but I assume these could only be handled by very experienced laboratories.

    The folly of traditional homeopathy can be illustrated to even the simplest of minds, a fact that does not seem to deter those with "minds" coming in under the "simplest" score. As an example, someone suggested to me recently that a daily dose of 5 grams of some calcium salt could be taken in 6X homeopathic form to treat some condition or other. A simple calculation showed that this would require the patient to consume 49,995.995 kilograms of lactose per day to get the recommended dose of calcium. This weight of tablets will not fit into the back of your average semi-trailer, and would therefore require at least two truckloads of pills per day. Every day. (The same person had said that 30X preparations were so powerful that they should only be taken when under the care of a fully-qualified homeopath. To get 5 grams out of a 30X preparation, the daily weight of tablets would be just under the mass of the Earth. Every day.)

    Faced with situations like this where the choice was either to eat the weight of forty small cars per day, drink a volume of liquid equivalent to one and a half petrol tankers or to take a manageable quantity of medicine that could not possibly contain any measurable amount of medication, the homeopaths have sought desperately for a resolution of the dilemma.

    What they came up with was the memory of water. I assume lactose has a similar memory, but nobody seems to be talking about it. The memory of water voodoo says that water remembers things that it has been in contact with even after all traces of the substance have been removed. Strangely, however, it doesn't remember the bottles or bladders it has been stored in, or the chemicals that may have come into contact with its molecules, or the other contents of the sewers it may have been in at one time, or the cosmic radiation which has blasted through it. It just remembers the one thing that the "researcher" wants it to remember.

    Then they tell us they can transmit this memory by email, but that's a story for another time

    Water has a whole lot of special chemical and physical properties that nothing else seems to have. The molecules in liquid water keep grouping and ungrouping, combining and recombining into tiny crystals and patterns. This has a lot to do with the way life looks on earth and why water is essential for life. It also has a lot to do with why water is an almost universal solvent. What it hasn't anything to do with is the idiocy of homeopathy.

    Homeopaths have adopted this "memory of water" nonsense in an attempt to recover from the disaster that arises whenever anyone who can think thinks about the ramifications of continuous dilution. In order to explain how something can continue to act even after all of its molecules have disappeared, it was necessary to invent the concept of "memory of water". Despite there being severe logical, philosophical and scientific reasons why any "memory of water" is a vacuous idea, and despite the fact that nobody has even come up with any even remotely feasible way of testing the concept, the homeopaths have simply willed it into existence. They then refer back to the weird way water molecules react with each other to say "see, some of these temporary structures could code for molecules that they have seen before".

    The real problem for them is that, even if "memory of water" was both possible and proven, it would not make homeopathy any less ridiculous. You see, homeopaths go further by claiming that they can selectively control what it is that water remembers. We have the situation where they are claiming to do the impossible while working with something that does not even exist in the first place.

    Let's look at making a typical homeopathic remedy. I have randomly chosen a treatment for cholera, which simply consists of a 30X preparation of human excrement. I won't bore you with the procedure because it just consists of successive dilutions and succussions. It's the final product I'm interested in.

    How does the preparer ensure that only the excrement is remembered and nothing else? Remember how I mentioned that water is an almost universal solvent? How was the preparation controlled to eliminate the possibility that the water remembered any of the non-excremental molecules that it might have come in contact with? For example, if it had instead remembered the molecules in the glass preparation vessel, we might have ended up with a treatment for silicosis. What if the preparer had breathed out through her mouth and the air above the preparation vessel had become contaminated by mercury vapour coming off her fillings. Some of this could have become dissolved in the water and then we might have come up with a treatment for _____ (fill in whatever mercury in fillings is causing this week). If she smoked, we might get a cure for lung cancer. If some of the nitrogen in the lab air had got into the water, a cure for the bends might have resulted, and a tiny fragment of asbestos blown in from a nearby demolition site might have been remembered and a treatment for mesothelioma been produced. None of these would be of any use to the poor person sitting outside waiting for a cure for diarrhoea (well, sometimes sitting, sometimes hurrying to sit elsewhere).

    If it were to be proved conclusively tomorrow that water can retain molecular structures related to other molecules that had been near the water ones, homeopathy would still be a stinking crock. Diluting it by a factor of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 would not make it more powerful or make it smell less.

    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Ernie Guilman on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 12:11 PM GMT+4
    That last statement is completely irrelevant in relation to current constitutions of almost every country in the world where Islam is the majority religion-----Islam and whichever state it is part of is inseparably intertwined with the laws of that country--One of the largest stumbling blocks (among many) to trying to set up a workable constitution in Iraq is that the U.S.C.P.A wants to limit the role Islam plays in the constitution and many of the influencial Iraqi poitical players, who by no coincidence are also the prime religious leaders, want the constitution primarily based on Islam and the teachings in the Koran----I'm willing to admit here that Christian Fundamentalism does exist and through history has been the perpetrator of many horrible things---but to lump all Fundamentalism together without looking at their differences and how they are playing out in our current events is only going to lead us down the same path we are on, which is to say , that if the only comment we can come up with after thinking about this topic is "Why can't everyone just mind their own business and leave me and my right not to be bothered by your religious zealousness alone" (which is really all you've said) than we can expect to continue to live in fear of another September 11th (that date's relevance to religion being how this whole post started), but I suppose when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail--------Ernie
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 01:26 PM GMT+4
    The issue here is being paranoid, and watchful to make SURE we don't end up in a Theocracy. And if you don't believe it can happen, I envy life under your rock! :)

    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 01:32 PM GMT+4
    Right now there are folks in Washington who are pushing a law through Congress that would "acknowledge God as the sovereign source of law, liberty [and] government" in the United States. What's more, it would forbid all legal challenges to government officials who use the power of the state to enforce their own view of "God's sovereign authority." Any judge who dared even hear such a challenge could be removed from office.

    The "Constitution Restoration Act of 2004" is no joke; it was introduced last month by some of the Bush Regime's most powerful Congressional sycophants. If enacted, it will effectively transform the American republic into a theocracy, where the arbitrary dictates of a "higher power" -- as interpreted by a judge, policeman, bureaucrat or president -- can override the rule of law.

    This crap is real. Be scared.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 01:34 PM GMT+4
    Yep, I was just reading about the same proposed Act. It was drafted by a minion of television evangelist Pat Robertson and is the fruit of decades of work by a group of extremists known broadly as "Dominionists." Their openly expressed aim is to establish "biblical rule" over every aspect of society, placing "the state, the school, the arts and sciences, law, economics, and every other sphere under Christ the King."

    Or as Attorney General John Ashcroft - our nation's chief law enforcement officer - has *often* proclaimed: "America has no king but Jesus!"
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 08:16 PM GMT+4
    There you go again, responding to something other than what was said. If you actually read what I wrote regarding antibiotics, it was not about a bad experience with antibiotics: It was about ineffective treatment by one of our local, famous "alternative healers," who was inept but decorous. I then went to a conventional medical person and had an effective antibiotic prescribed, which wiped out my sinus infection

    You seem to see every discussion as a polarized argument -- for or against, which explains the thought process by which you categorize the other person, and then launch your argument, seemingly unaware of what the person actually said. Would like to help you, but some honest introspection may be what you need.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 17 2004 @ 08:45 PM GMT+4
    I think you are confusing people here. I just read your comments and appreciated them.

    But I will say, "there you go again" arrogantly rushing to judgement yourself!

    Have a nice evening.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 18 2004 @ 04:15 PM GMT+4
    Actually, you would be surprised at what a trivial threat such as eternal damnation can do to the way people act. I know it's just a tiny little matter, burning in hell for all eternity, but believe it or not, it does raise a few eyebrows.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 18 2004 @ 04:23 PM GMT+4
    Actually, there is a lot of misunderstanding on how Christians evaluate the OT as opposed to the NT. But the truth is that the OT is fine, AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT the NT. The reason for this is perfectly logical. The OT was given to us by prophets, persons worthy of our attention and consideration. But the NT was given to us by the Messiah, and his word always takes priority over any prophet. This explains why the Pope and the Catholic Church are opposed to the death penalty even though the OT says, "an eye for an eye". That is contradicted by what the Messiah said in the NT, which is "who among you has never committed a sin, let he cast the first stone". That is how it actually works. (yeah, I know, some Christians say they are in favor of the death penalty, ect., but I have not heard any of them logically rebut the analysis laid out above yet as to why the NT should and does, for lack of a better expression "win the tie-breaker")
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 18 2004 @ 04:30 PM GMT+4
    How do you know a Christian made the entry about Pascal's wager? It does not say "Christian". It says "believer or non-believer in God". Those who believe some God at least have a CHANCE to go to heaven if there is a God, whereas the atheist have no chance no matter which God is the right one.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 18 2004 @ 04:37 PM GMT+4
    Wrong, I did reply, see the entry on 3/18 at approx. 12:30 starting with "how do you know the person making the entry is a Christian?". It does logically rebut one of the important points the other guy tries to make, which was "what if you pick the wrong god?"
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 18 2004 @ 05:01 PM GMT+4
    I figure a few more posts and this topic will hit 100 :) Let's see... what is the common thread.
    ism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 18 2004 @ 06:41 PM GMT+4
    It didn't 'rebut' it at all actually, though if it did in your own mind. Cool.
    ism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 18 2004 @ 06:46 PM GMT+4
    Huh? Again, simply - if a God can see into your heart and mind. So, you think you would get into a nice place because you are ''playing the odds'' based on a cold calculation (Pascals Wager). Can you really "believe" because you think your odd's are better? You must have a shallow mind if that is the case.

    I would think a God that is omniscient would see your motivations - and therefore see that its just a selfish and cynical calculation.

    A much more honest and warm calculation is simply: I enjoy being loving and honest to the people in my life. If there is a truly good and loving God(s)/Goddess(s), then I've got nothing to worry about. If there is not one, I've still nothing to worry about - and that energy spent being loving and honest was still not wasted, because it made my life more rich.

    Pascal's Wager *cannot* work in a universe that was overseen by a truly omniscient, all powerful and *loving* being.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 19 2004 @ 01:06 AM GMT+4
    Common thread is that when you love to toss bones to dogs just to watch the play and tussle - there are just a couple of very reliable subjects! <G>

    (And I'm not saying I'm not a dog too!)
    100 Comment Limit
    Authored by: cgrotke on Friday, March 19 2004 @ 01:10 AM GMT+4
    I think we have this set to limit the comments to 100.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 19 2004 @ 10:33 AM GMT+4
    Would be nice if we all tried a little harder to post with the original topic in mind---some of the offshoots here are interesting but definitely tangential--E.G.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: darqmatr on Saturday, March 20 2004 @ 07:28 PM GMT+4
    I agree. I've forgotten what the topic was about. But all topics seem to involve religion or monkeys, sooner or later :)

    I'd like to suggest that we import 100 monkeys to Brattleboro. Let them run loose. Then see where they congregate a week later. Will it be Mocha Joe's, or will they wander down to Vernon.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 21 2004 @ 08:51 AM GMT+4
    Let's give'em typewriters and see what happens, maybe one of them will end up posting here:)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 21 2004 @ 12:50 PM GMT+4
    Yes--I remember reading something about enough Monkeys could write a Shakespeare play, given enough time!

    Are we at 100 posts, yet?

    Are we there, yet?

    Are we there, yet?
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 21 2004 @ 04:15 PM GMT+4
    We Muslims don't need any apologists.
    ism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, March 25 2004 @ 04:18 PM GMT+4
    Interesting you bring up such considerations. The reason Pascal's wager is used in communicating with atheists is because that "cold, logical" approach is the best way to communicate with them. After all, the entire basis of atheism is, "Well, there is no scientific or mathematical proof that God exists, so therefore I don't believe it." How are we supposed to approach a discussion with someone who thinks like that?
    Allah or Christian God more Cruel?
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 26 2004 @ 12:57 AM GMT+4
    As if the Bible doesn't glorify and call for violence all through it? Oh thats right, *Christian apologists* come up with excuses to write off the parts of the books they don't want to have to explain (and say "your taking it out of context" or such nonesense).

    But here - lets have a Bible Quiz! Whose God is More Vicious? Is it the Moslem God Allah of the Koran, or the Christian God of the Bible?

    Can anybody answer the questions? I'll post the answers with the ''proof'' from the Koran and Bible afterwards. (And incidentally, I don't actually think that Islam is any more or less truthful than Christianity, I simply want to point out the hypocrisy of people claiming that Muslims are believe a more dangerous faith than Christians).

    Questions:

    1. Whose god has promised the cruelest fate for people of different religions?

    A. The Moslem god, because the Christian god would never harm anyone simply because he was raised in a different religion.

    B. The Moslem god because he curses anyone who does not believe in him.

    C. The Christian god because he condemns non-Christians to everlasting destruction.

    D. Both are equally vicious. Both gods have utter disdain for all other religions and condemn the followers of those faiths to eternal damnation.

    --------------------

    2. Whose god orders the most violent plight for nonbelievers while on Earth?

    A. Neither. Neither god believes in violence.

    B. Neither. While both gods will punish nonbelievers on Judgment Day, neither prescribes harming them while on Earth.

    C. The Christian god because he ordered his followers to kill all those of a different religion, including family members, friends and even their cattle, whereas the Moslem god simply required the enslaving of nonbelievers.

    D. Both gods issued equally violent orders.

    --------------------

    3. Whose god orders the cruelest warfare?

    A. Neither god speaks of cruelty in warfare.

    B. Obviously, the Moslem god, since the Christian god never endorsed warfare.

    C. The Moslem god because he ordered his followers to imprison and enslave their enemies temporarily.

    D. The Christian god because he ordered his followers to kill all the men in the towns they invaded, enslaving only the women and children (who sometimes were to be slaughtered as well, along with every other living thing in sight).

    --------------------

    4. Whose god has the least pity and most contempt for the enemies of his followers?

    A. The Moslem god because the Christian god advocates nonviolence and continuous forgiveness.

    B. The Christian god because he orders his followers to kill all their enemies, regardless of their actions, without pity.

    C. The Christian god because the Moslem god forbids his followers from striking enemies who do not fight and orders peace with those desiring it.

    D. B and C.

    --------------------

    5. Whose god has more contempt for homosexuals?

    A. The Moslem god, because the Christian god judges people on how they treat others and not on their sexual orientation.

    B. The Christian god because he demands that homosexuals be killed whereas the Moslem god, though demanding punishment of homosexuals, spares those ultimately intimidated into suppressing their natural passions.

    C. The Christian god because he condemns homosexuals to Hell whereas the Moslem god promises resurrected men beautiful young boys in Heaven.

    D. B and C.

    --------------------

    6. Whose god has prescribed the more vicious physical punishment of sinners?

    A. The Moslem god because the Christian god never told His people to harm anyone physically.

    B. The Moslem god because he ordered his followers to apply more lashes to sinners than the Christian god did.

    C. The Christian god because he actually ordered the greater level of beating.

    D. Both gods ordered the same level of violence to be perpetrated against those who violated the gods’ arbitrary edicts.

    --------------------

    7. Whose god should you fear most?

    A. The Moslem god because the Christian god is not to be feared at all.

    B. The Moslem god because he deserves to be feared.

    C. The Christian god because while Allah may be worthy of fear, God not only kills those who rub Him the wrong way but sends them to Hell as well.

    D. They’re both equally terrifying.

    --------------------

    8. Whose god places the least value on the lives of women?

    A. Neither. Both gods view women and men as equally important.

    B. The Moslem god, for he says females deserve less than males.

    C. The Christian god, for he places lesser value on the lives of women.

    D. This is basically a wash. Both gods view women as far less worthwhile than men.

    --------------------

    9. Whose god puts women in their place with the harshest of restrictions on their speech?

    A. The Moslem god because the Christian god recognizes the equality of the genders and allows women to speak in any forum.

    B. The Christian god, for he requires women to learn in silence and forbids them to speak in church.

    C. The Christian god because he forbids women to teach, requiring them to learn from their husbands, whereas the Moslem god allows women to speak out against their husbands and he hears their complaints.

    D. B and C.

    --------------------

    10. Whose god is the champion of deceit?

    A. Trick question. The gods of both religions are completely honest.

    B. The Moslem god for he leads sinners to believe lies so they may be damned.

    C. The Christian god for he leads sinners to believe lies so they may be damned.

    D. Neither wins for both “B” and “C” are true.
    Lots of options
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 26 2004 @ 03:37 AM GMT+4
    You think that the only choices are being a theist or an atheist? Nope.

    A Theist is somebody who thinks they KNOW the truth.

    An Atheist is somebody who thinks they also KNOW the truth.

    An Agnostic is somebody who realizes they really just don't know, though they may well recognize the extremely low *probabilitys* of certain mysticisms being fact. They just are intelligent enough to realize they don't *KNOW*. And not arrogant enough to try to claim they do.

    ------------------------------------

    Some people look at the definitions this way:

    Theist: "I know the answer, and that answer is the only answer."

    Atheist: "I know the answer, that your answer is false."

    Agnostic: "I don't know the answer".

    ----------------------------

    And then there is me:

    Militant Agnostic: "I don't know the answer, and neither do you" :)
    Read more
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 26 2004 @ 04:06 AM GMT+4
    Huh? The basis of atheism is not "Well, there is no scientific or mathematical proof that God exists, so therefore I don't believe it."

    (A)Theism simply means to NOT be theistic. To act as if the assumption for everybody should be in one of the various dietys (lots to choose from) - is silly.

    Do you believe that fairys, trolls and goblins exist? If not, then by the same logic you would be just like the athiests for refusing to believe such.

    You don't believe in Allah? You must be an Atheist. You don't believe in Shiva, Vishnu, Thor? If no, then from many peoples standpoint - you are an Atheist.

    Does that get through to you?

    And if you think that Pascal's Wager is some brilliant "logical" argument. This speaks poorly of your powers of logic. Pasca's Wager is immediately seen as irrational by any true application of logic. It would only convince those who maybe just hold a self-image of being ''logical''.

    And cold? Its *logical* to love others and treat them well, its better for our species, its better for how others treat us, its better for how we feel about ourselves. To feel that rational thinking is somehow therefore "cold" is extremely silly! Those who would only behave such because of stick and carrot threats and promises . . . now THATS cold thinking.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Religions change, beer and wine remain.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 26 2004 @ 01:38 PM GMT+4
    "What are you saying? Have we finally found a muslim who is willing to admit that the use of violence against non muslims is part of the theological framework of Islam? If so, it would be a first here in the United States."

    The first time? Here in the US?!

    Wow. Be a little more broad, arrogant and ignorant with your statements, please...

    Do you even know any Muslims, or are you simply willing to discredit millions of people based on what you've read and your own little superiority complex?

    Get real. I know many Muslims who have admitted that the Koran has a strong penchant for violence. Ever read it? I have and that was the first thing that stuck in my craw. But out of those many, many Muslims that I've known over the years, nearly every one of them eschewed violence.

    I'd be wary of making such broad, general statements. And while you're at it, that Muslim who "finally" spoke up probably didn't deserve you singling him/her out with all of that sarcasm. Maybe some Muslims don't speak up because you rave on about how wrong other peoples' beliefs are, like your opinions are more important than their beliefs?

    I really hate it when people preach against narrow-minded dogma by spouting narrow-minded dogma.

    Great way to encourgae discourse, bud.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 27 2004 @ 08:42 AM GMT+4
    "Hope for the best, expect the worst". "Underpromise and overdeliver".
    Adages I've heard to guard against disappointment-accepting that nothing
    is guaranteed. It's so tough for some of us humans to handle the
    uncertainty of life, the inevitability of death. This awareness of one's
    mortal limitations, thanks to a brain that "self-examines" can bring out
    extreme reactions.
    Also, I wonder about the belief-systems of people who view humans as
    "superior" or "special" vs. people who consider humans to be just another
    species of animal. Guess that's a separate topic...

    ---
    "Everything is everything-and it's all a thing"
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 28 2004 @ 07:18 PM GMT+4
    Sorry, I took exception to that little matter of 3000 people dying on 9/11/01 by muslims who cited (accurately) the Koran as justification for their actions. (Not to mention everything that's gone on in Israel, Kashmir, ect.) I believe that 9/11 calls for an honest and straightforward dialogue about these issues. That has been lacking in the mainstream media because the public discourse since 9/11 has been limited to those who would have us believe that Islam is about picking flowers and spreading unconditional love to all. How dare I? Besides, how am I "singling" that person out? This is an anonymous forum. (the only type of forum where a discussion like this can take place)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 28 2004 @ 08:15 PM GMT+4
    No answer to the questions?

    Anyways, my point was not to try to elevate Islam over Christianity - I think they are both fundamentally evil influences on the world.

    9/11 was horrible, and it was definately a result of militant interpretations of the Koran. But Chrisianity is no less prone to horror in its name, look back over history and at least as many people have died because of militant interpretations of the Bible.

    So, yes - I think Islam helps create and motivate violence. But no more or less historically than Christianity.
    Allah or Christian God more Cruel?
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 29 2004 @ 01:29 AM GMT+4
    Hello, we are still waiting for the "answers and the proofs" here. I will pre-emptively point out that most of what you're going to cite from the Bible is going to be from the Old Testament, not the New Testament. Yes, Christians can legitimately draw that distinction, and most neutral theologians acknowledge so, because the OT was given to us by prophets, who are by definition inferior to the Messiah, who gave us the NT. Why is that not legitimate in your view? Don't you think it makes perfect sense that when there is a conflict between what the OT says and what the NT says that Christians would give greater weight to the NT, given the sources from which the two books were derived? And by the way, where do muslims get off trying to hold the OT against Christians when both accept the OT as the precurser to their holy books? When comparing differences between Christianity and Islam on these issues, the OT is irrelevant because both religions accept the OT. And both say that it takes a back seat to their subsequent holy books, the NT for Christianity and the Koran for Islam. To compare differences between the two, one should focus only on the NT and the Koran. And if one does do that, one will clearly see that Christianity is scripturally more pacifist than Islam.
    Allah or Christian God more Cruel?
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 29 2004 @ 01:41 AM GMT+4
    This is a post script to the previous entry. If this was not an anonymous forum, this meaningful conversation would not and could not take place. The reason for this is not only that the PC police would be reading me my rights. If muslims knew my identity, it would be their theological obligation to kill me. (remember Salmon Rushdie?). I think that fact is quite an irony which lends some perspective to this dialogue.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 29 2004 @ 02:02 AM GMT+4
    To suppose that America could turn into a theocracy because of the Constitution Restoration Act is not realistic. Unless it was a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, it really wouln't change much.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 29 2004 @ 02:02 AM GMT+4
    Can only bother you if it hits home a bit. Otherwise just laugh at it.

    Prove you are not Christian Taliban - support laws and candidates who espouse absolute seperation of all religion with all state power and money.

    True seperation of church and state doesn't just protect people from beliefs they don't hold, it also protects religions from the state.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 29 2004 @ 02:06 AM GMT+4
    If it is the Republicans' goal to place economics under the purview of the principles of Jesus of Nazareth, then the rat race, dog eat dog capitalism that Republicans have always favored is an awful strange way to go about that.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 29 2004 @ 02:13 AM GMT+4
    So anyone who favors moderate integration of Christian principles (most notably equity, charity, peace, environmental protection, economic justice, improving public health, ect. -which admittedly is not the priorities of the current administration but should be) with government is the equivalent of the Taliban, which put women to death if their feet made a sound when they walked? (that is not an exageration, by the way)
    Allah or Christian God more Cruel?
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 29 2004 @ 02:13 AM GMT+4
    Oh yes - watch out for the P.C. police, Christians are so much the underdog in our society!

    I'm certainly glad this has finally been brought out into the open. The anti-Christian bias in our society has reached absurd proportions. Consider:

    During the 1999 election campaign, George Bush said that Christians should not be considered patriots or real American citizens.

    Even Bill Clinton steadfastly refused to give any speeches at local churches.

    Both major political parties are dominated by anti-Christians. The Republican party, for example, gave us such hard-core atheists as Pat Buchanan, Dan Quayle, Phyllis Schlafly and Ronald Reagan. And the Democrats have given us such personalities as the Rev. Martin Luther King and the Rev. Jesse Jackson-- both noted for their vicious attacks on all forms of Christianity.

    Let's talk about the media. On Sunday mornings, nearly all major television channels broadcast pro-atheist shows; it is nearly impossible to find religious programming during that time period. Further, Madalyn Murray O'Hair has her own cable TV channel, while Pat Robertson has been unable to obtain one for himself.

    Most major newspapers run a special weekly section devoted to atheism. There are no equivalent sections for religious news.

    Anti-Christian shows such as the American Atheist Forum are broadcast by major national networks. Meanwhile, Billy Graham is only able to get on the air through public access TV, which is watched by few people.

    On news programs and "reality" TV shows such as Rescue 911, nobody is ever shown giving thanks to God after surviving a disaster.

    It is almost impossible to find a shopping mall with a Christian book store, while Atheist Book Centers are featured prominently on every corner.

    While atheists couples who marry rarely have any difficulty finding a place to do so, it is nearly impossible for Christian couples to find a church where they can marry.

    For that matter, churches themselves are extremely rare, while atheist meeting centers can be found every few blocks.

    Recently, several atheists have shot and killed Christian priests as they were going to work in their churches. Similarly, atheists are well known for blockading churches on Sunday mornings.

    Nearly all of our elected public officials are atheists; they even have to swear on a copy of Darwin's "Origin of Species" in order to take office.

    In a similar vein, jurors must take an oath upon a copy of the Skeptical Inquirer before they can serve. There have even been court cases thrown out because one of the jury members was a Christian who insisted on swearing on a Bible.

    And of course, people are free to wear pentagram jewelry, but those trying to wear cross-shaped earrings or pendants to work will be politely told to remove the jewelry or lose their job.

    Speaking of the workplace, Christians often find it nearly impossible to get time off work for religious holidays such as Christmas.

    Even our language reflects the radical anti-Christian bias that pervades our society. For example, when somebody sneezes, most people say "Darwin bless you". Similarly, "Voltaire dammit!" is a common cussword.

    All of our money has the atheistic slogan "We do not trust in God" printed on it.

    In school, our children are made to recite the pledge, "One nation, anti-God, indivisible...."

    One cannot rent a hotel room without finding a copy of Nietzsche's The Anti-Christ in the room.

    Organizations such as the Boy Scouts deny membership to Christians.

    In the military, it is nearly impossible to obtain Conscientious Objector status for religious reasons, even though those with philosophical reasons can obtain C.O. status relatively easily.

    Christian churches are forced to pay exorbitant taxes.

    You can't drive anywhere without seeing a Darwin fish or a "Jesus Was A Fraud" bumper sticker stuck to a car.

    Georgia recently passed a new law requiring schools to have a "moment of noise" during which children are encouraged to degrade Christianity.

    College campuses usually have dozens of atheist organizations, but few if any for Christians.

    There are several well-known atheist campus preachers who lecture on college campuses on the virtues of atheism.

    Also common on college campuses are groups of students handing out copies of Betrand Russell's "Why I Am Not A Christian"; some even force people who don't want these books to take them.

    Campus newspapers often print editorials extolling the virtues of atheism.

    People look at you funny and wonder if there's something wrong upstairs if you admit to being a Christian in public.

    Many Christians are afraid to admit their Christianity to their parents and friends, for fear their kin will consider them immoral Christian scum and want nothing to do with them.

    At presidential inauguration ceremonies, Madalyn Murray-O'Hair (that well-known friend of several presidents) gives a short pro-atheism speech.

    For decades, high school and college commencement ceremonies have included brief speeches at the beginning and end of the ceremony in which atheism is praised and Christians deemed irrational. Christians who object to the practice, or who ask for an opening prayer instead, are regarded as cranks at best and subversives at worst.

    Not only do commencement ceremonies feature pro-atheist speeches, there's usually an entire two-hour ceremony the day before graduation dedicated to upholding the atheist foundation of our educational system.

    "There are no Christians in foxholes" is a popular slogan in our society.

    Most hospitals are full of atheist symbols, and many prominently feature statues of Nietszche, Darwin, and so forth.

    Communities set up atheist brainwashing facilities, and apply social pressure to citizens to report to these facilities every Sunday morning. Furthermore, attendees are expected to contribute money to support these facilities, and to build others through "outreach" programs.

    Most parents in America indoctrinate their children at an early age to be atheists by forcing them to attend these brainwashing sessions, whether they want to or not.

    While atheists hold huge rallies in 25,000-seat amphitheatres, Christians are so few in number that they can only dream of holding such rallies.

    At baseball games, you can often spot people carrying signs that read "Origin Of Species, page 34".

    Hospital waiting rooms usually come equipped with children's copies of Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History Of Time", complete with order forms so that parents can send off for their own copy.

    Atheist magazines such as "Atheism Today", "Today's Atheist Woman", "Atheist Homeschooler", "The Atheist Century", "Atheist Ministry", "The Atheist Archeological Review", "Atheist Parenting Today" and "The Atheist Science Monitor" are featured prominently in newsstands across the country.

    The Fellowship of Atheist Athletes has local chapters on college campuses throughout America.

    According to recent Gallup polls, approximately 86% of Americans do not believe in God.

    Politicians often refer to America's "Agnosto-Atheist heritage" when trying to woo voters.

    Atheists are beginning to subvert the American political process. For example, the American Atheists recently published over thirty million voter's guides for distribution at atheist meeting-houses. These guides gave specific instructions note to vote for those who oppose atheist values.

    It's easy to buy checks with quotes from Thomas Paine, but almost impossible to buy checks with Bible verses on them.

    Businesses often refuse to admit that they are Christian owned and operated, for fear of being boycotted by their atheist customers. Meanwhile, atheist-owned businesses often feature Darwin-fish logos in their ads.

    There are large networks of atheistic private schools in America, while it's nearly impossible to find a private Catholic school.


    ----------------------
    Get the idea?


    Our constitution was set up to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Since what is popular changes with time and mood. The majority of Americans OPPOSED getting rid of slavery. The majority of Germanys supported Hitler.

    Christians are currently the tyrannical majority in America, we need to protect the minority of non-Christians from them. Religions change . . . beer and wine remain! :)
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 29 2004 @ 02:19 AM GMT+4
    Well, which Christian Principals? Here are a few:

    Wife listed among property

    Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
    -- Exodus 20:17 (AV), The Tenth Commandment

    Woman must marry rapist

    If a man [meets] a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her ... He must marry the girl ... He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
    -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV)

    Virgin women are war booty

    "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he [Moses] asked them.... "Now ... kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
    -- Numbers 31:1-18 (NIV)

    Christian women: be silent

    Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
    -- I Corinthians 14:34-35 (NIV)

    Execute stubborn kids

    If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son ... Then shall his father and his mother ... bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
    -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (AV

    ------------------

    There are LOTS more (too bad most Christian apologists have never actually really READ the book!) And there is long history of Christians historically, and in modern times acting on the more horrific verses.
    Terrorism and Other Harms of Believing in an Afterlife
    Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 29 2004 @ 02:46 AM GMT+4
    None of the quotations above were attributed to Jesus, they all came from "prophets". They have a place in Christianity only to the extent that they do not contradict what is attributed to Jesus: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself", "Love your enemy", "Do unto others as you would have done to you", "If someone slaps your right cheek, turn to them your left", " If someone steals your shirt, hand them your coat as well", "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword", "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you also do to me". In other words, they have no place in Christianity. The words of the Messiah overrule any contradictory words from anyone besides the Messiah. That is why in my previous entry, I mentioned some of the principles that I would like to see integrated into our government (equality, charity, ect.). I don't think that puts me in the same category with the Taliban.
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