If they had shows like this on BCTV, everyone would be watching.
The end result was that the employee who could not be named, identified during the meeting as Frederic Noyes, would have a hearing of the Personnel Committee, the Executive Director will also be heard on the matter, and the board looks forward to a report later this summer.
Getting there was not so simple.
In attendence at this meeting were:
Mike Hebert – President
Dan Seiden – Vice President
Lynn Corum – Treasurer
Pauline Baumberger – Secretary
Michael Billingsley
Hugh Bronson
Ian Kiehle
Timothy Wessel
plus fired employee Frederic Noyes, and about 18 members, viewers, concerned citizens, and media. The meeting began warmly, with Board Chair Mike Hebert explaining the purpose of the meeting. What follows is a rough transcript of the meeting.
Mike Hebert
There are two issues for this special meeting - we will discuss...
1. Answer Tim's questions in his email about the budget, and
2. Personnel issues, and those will be done in executive session
Michael Billingsley
Can you say which person you're talking about?
MH
No
Pauline Baumberger
No
MB
You can't say which person?
Lynn Corum
No, we can't
MH
So Tim, you had a question about the budget.
Timothy Wessel
Ok, well you blindsided me a little with this, but that's all right.
Audience:
Can you speak up?
TW
What it comes down to is that at the last meeting, the budget wasn't discussed fully... I didn't get a copy until 10 minutes before the meeting. But the copy I was handed had all kinds of things that were not discussed, because there was a really quick call for a vote. One of my questions was not addressed and that is how can you vote on a budget that was not discussed?
LC
We talked about that for a whole hour before you got there.
MH
Is there any objection to answering Tim's questions, because I would like allow Tim to have his questions answered. Is there any objection to that?
[no objection]
TW
Um, well I have a question about an allotment for travel/lodging at $2000.
LC
This is for a new show. It started up at $1500, but has been raised to $2000 so that Tim Johnson can go to Montpelier and start a new show about the legislature.
But the budget is only a guess of what you might spend, and it might not happen. If you don't do it, it doesn't get spent.
TW
And that was discussed at the meeting?
MB
My recollection is that the personnel matter started the meeting, and we went into executive session only discussing the personnel matter as required by law.
We did not discuss any other issues.
There was one discussion about legal fees. All the other items we didn't get to. Tim asked if there was any discussion, and I remember asking for discussion but the motion was closed to discussion while I was still talking.
MH
The budget was moved and seconded, someone moved to close discussion, we voted on the budget and it passed.
PB
The budget must be approved by the end of the fiscal year in any non-profit.
Dan Seiden
What's the difference between the 2005 and 2004 budget?
MH
Revenue projections. We have increased the money to do the show in Montpelier, and other than that there's nothing substantive in the changes.
LC
We also consolidated our insurance bills.
DS
So payroll looks the same in this budget as it did in the 2004 budget?
LC and MH
Yeah... Not substantive.
Ian Kiehle
Hold on.
DS
We have more revenue than before?
MH
Yes.
DS
And we consolidated a few items, and that looks the same.
IK
We did change a few items in payroll...
DS
So payroll looks the same?
MB
Very different.
LC
The overall amount of payroll has increased.
IK
Yeah but...
DS
Percentage wise? I mean roughly?
LC
Normal basic increases.
IK
We do have a reduction in hours in Frederic's position.
MH
Do not go there.
IK
I will go there.
MH
Don't go there now. Don't go there now. You're out of order.
IK
The probelm is, this is a public document.
MH
Don't go there.
IK
It has names on it but no positions.
MH
Don't go there now.
IK
I just don't understand why I can't...
MH
Stop.
IK
I can't refer to a public document....
MH
You're out of order.
IK
...that has names on it... I'll push a motion that ...
MH
You'rre out of order.
IK
That's fine, I was just talking about...
MH
That means be quiet.
IK
My problem is...
MH
All right, this meeting is in recess.
IK
Ok, we're in recess... You know I thought about this -- if this is recess, then this isn't a meeting, and I can talk.
MH
You can do whatever you want.
[stands]
IK
How long are we in recess?
(someone says)
Why are we in recess?
MH
Because he's out of order and he will not stop.
[LC stands up to leave]
IK
Can you explain to me where I'm out of order?
MH
We're not going to discuss a personnel issue in open session.
IK
The problem is that this budget is now a public document.
MH
He's going there.
MB
Why don't you discuss the wording on the budget?
TW
In fact, it's in my letter. You asked me about my letter.
MH
I did, but we're not going to discuss personnel issues except in executive seesion.
TW
In my letter I asked about ...
IK
This is something that irked me because of the last meeting.
[MH and LC sit back down]
IK
It bothered me that the budget had names and not positions.
That was my concern.
MH
That's exactly what we're gong to talk about in executive session.
IK
I don't want to create more contention...
MH
Well then stop
IK
But...
MH
Then stop and you'll have ample time.
TW
Are we still in recess?
MH
Yes, for a couple more minutes.
IK
Can I ask a question? I apologize for being late. There are two issues we're discussing? What are the two issues?
MH
Tim's questions about the budget and a personnel issue.
IK
Yes.
MH
(Knocks table) We're back... Tim?
TW
Ok, so one of these involves the exact same question he mentioned. And I'm not going to ask that because we're going to cover that in executive session.
MH
If there's no other questions about the budget, we'll go into executive session.
MB
Were all the matters in your letter addressed?
MH
We have a motion on the floor...
MB
So you aren't going to address the fact that you called me an asshole at the last meeting...
MH
Well, you are one, so what do you want me to do about that...
AUDIENCE:
[ oooohhhh....]
MH
It was after the meeting, and if you like, I can wait till after this meeting and tell you again.
LC
We have a motion on the floor...
[second... vote]
AUDIENCE:
Nay!
MH
You can't vote.
MB
What about the discussion?
MH
Look, I was cleaning my office today, and I found this: [hands MB a big yellow fold-out poster]
Here read it.
Ok we're in executive session, to include only the executive director.
MB
...and the employee.
MH
The executive director.
MB
The bylaws say...
MH
State statute supercedes that. This body decides who's going to be here.
MB
You want to see a copy of state statute?
MH
By all means...
AUDIENCE:
I believe that the State Statute says that when allegations are brought against an employee that's...
MH
Did anyone say anything about an allegation? You're out of order, sir.
[laughter]
AUDIENCE:
Where does it say in Robert's Rules of Order that the chairman is dictator?
MH
If you don't clear the room, I'll get a police officer to clear it.
We are in executive session, please leave.
AUDIENCE:
Excuse me, may I just say something?
AUDIENCE:
Mike, you have the press here, love.
MH
So what?
AUDIENCE:
I'm just saying it for your own advisement... I just want to remind you.
MH
I'm not doing anything out of order.
DS
I need to ask a question.. I need to ask a question. Are we gonna be able to answer these people's questions fully when we come out of executive session?
MH
Probably not Because a lot of what we'll be discussing will be confidential.
DS
Because there is an issue which has come up, obviously.
People want to know what's going on with that, obviously.
So, are we gonna more than just that...
AUDIENCE:
Not people, members.
DS
No. More than members, everybody wants to know. It's come up, so what I think we need to, well, I just would like to know if we're going to satisfy people's need to know, or at least are these people coming back after the exectuve session?
MH
We go back into regular session.
DS
At that point are we allowed to take questions from...
LC
No
MH
It will depend on the board discussion and then what their questions are.
DS
So that answer is yes?
MH
Possibly yes.
TW
Normally we recognize visitors before going into executive session.
DS
Ok, so that would mean that we can do our business and we can come back and there's the potential for the answering of all queries...
MH
The potential, but we might not be able to answer all questions.
DS
Is that ok?
AUDIENCE:
May I ask if VT's open meeting law applies here?
LC
Of course, it does.
AUDIENCE:
I do want you to know that I read a court case that not all personel matters are amenable to open session, only if you can show that it's going to cause harm.
This may not be...
MH
I'm very familiar with open meeting law, and we're within our rights to do what we're doing.
AUDIENCE:
You have your opinion, but I'm saying that it's not as clear cut as you might think and that there's case law that might say otherwise. I just want you to be aware of that.
MH
I'm aware of that. I've been doing this for over 20 years, and I'm quite comfortable with what I'm doing now.
AUDIENCE:
I have a question. You keep saying it's a personnel issue. But isn't this also a policy issue since a position is being eliminated?
MH
No. That's... is that what people want... Right now... We moved to an executive session and everyone has to leave or...we can dissolve executive session and answer the questions.
A large part of the problem is that when the budget was made, a lot of the positions were identified by name. They should not have been identified by name. They should have been identified by the total amount allocated to the executive director to fill the positions.
AUDIENCE:
Do you mean by position or by person?
MH
By position. We had three and half full time equivalents. After the budget passed we still have 3 1/2 full time equivalents.
But it is at the discretion of the executive director how he staffs the station. It's not up to the board.
AUDIENCE:
Does it say anywhere in the bylaws what positions the station must have?
LC
There's nothing in the bylaws that says we have to have certain positions. We have job descriptions.
MB
I also have a question. Our bylaws say that any staff member whose performance is being discussed by the board has a right to attend the meeting and to present arguments in their own defense. Can you tell me if an employee is in the room who is going to be discussed at the executive session, will they be invited to attend?
IK
We want a positive outcome.
MH
Absolutely.
IK
I don't want to cause contention, but I have something that I would like to share with the board during executive session, and I think there are certain points in the timeline where Ie could have done something as a member of the personnel committee...
DS
I just want to understand things. So the amount of money for staff has not changed -- has not gotten lower. The executive director has made a decision to allocate the money differently. But that has nothing to do with the budget...
MH
What employee do you think we'll discuss?
MB
I have no idea.
MH
So we're going to have everyone stay?
MB
Will we invite the employee to attend our discussion about the employee's performance?
MH
Some things we wouldn't discuss with the employee are litigation....
DS
But Mike [MB], you said this had to do with employee evaluation.
IK
After our budget meeting last time, the executive director chose to eliminate a position.
MH
I don't htink the board should be dealing with personnel issues...
We passed a budget with 3 1/2 positions, it's up to the executive director to decide how to fill them as the satation needs require. We had 3 1/2 and we still have them.
IK
A more pressing issue is the person who was dismissed, and that's a concern.
MH
And that's something we will not discuss in open session.
That's something that we have to discuss as a board. We have to discuss where we're at and what we think as a board, and then discuss it with the executive director. (Move. Vote.) Everyone please leave except for the executive director.
BEGIN EXECUTIVE SESSION
(About 45 minutes pass)
END EXECUTIVE SESSION
IK
I'd like to say that it's quite obvious to the public that there's often disagreement on this board. That is not something new to this board.
We are all hoping that we can have our disagreement s in a civil manner. And I think a lot of the issues come up because not only are there differences of opinion and differences of vision, but also there are what you might call personality clashes.
and hopefully we'll move on from there. And I can say that I'm chair of the personnel committee. The employee has been terminated... they're still considered an employee because they've filed a grievance disputing their termination. So that the personnel committee will have a hearing next week and will be submitting a recommendation on how the board should vote. That pretty much sums it up.
LC
I would move we adjourn.
MH
Second?
TW
I would open it up for comments from the public.
Hugh Bronson
I think people should have the right to ask questions.
MH
No second?
OK. Any questions? I'd be surprised if you didn't have questions....
AUDIENCE:
I'll hold my questions until after the meeting.
MH
Yes?
Frederic Noyes
I'm just looking forward to my opportunity to tell my side of the story.
MH
The Personnel Committee will meet in with you, then with the executive director, and then come up with a report in a couple weeks.
In August there will be a meeting at which you will be invited to participate, in executive session.
We will then discuss what the board is going to do with that recommendation.
You will present your case to the personnel committee, then to the entire board.
There may be resolution ahead of time. According to personnel policy... the board as a whole will make the final decision.
AUDIENCE:
It's my understanding that you're talking about the Personnel Committee. Should the employee be taken through this process before or after termination?
MH
Either.
AUDIENCE:
I know that the employee in question did not receive a performance evalutation in the 13 months with the station. Is there any explanation for this?
MH
The Personnel Committee will take this up. That is under dispute also.
AUDIENCE:
What does it mean for a comunity access station to eliminate the community access position?
MH
We haven't done that...
AUDIENCE:
So you plan to hire someone else as the access coordinator?
MH
That's premature to decide.
IK
That would be premature because the grievance hasn't happened.
AUDIENCE:
I don't understand how you're functioning if you have no access coordinator. What's the plan?
MH
The duties will have to be picked up by the executive director. At this point, the access coordinator position still exists. There's been no decision to eliminate that position. The person filling the position has been terminated.The position still exists.
AUDIENCE:
The executive director is filling in the summer, then?
MH
Yes. He and the staff will have to figure out how to fill the position.
AUDIENCE:
I have a copy of the the letter that was sent to the employee says that the 'access coordinator position, and hence your job, is no more.' Can you clear that up? You just said that the position was still there.
MH
That's as clear as it will get until it gets to the Personnel Committee.
DB
Mr. Lindop, do you want to address this question?
TL
I'd be happy to address anything and everything once things have been worked out through the grievance committee or the grievance process.
(Meeting adjourned)