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Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted    
Monday, July 31 2006 @ 02:40 PM GMT+4
Contributed by: Scott

HealthI reported* here two years ago on Mary's mutants- the many Black-Eyed Susies that a Guilford woman has raised in her garden every year, but which suddenly came up with many mutated ones after she had a truckload of manure delivered that came from the farm outside of the Vermont Yankee nuclear facility. She was on the cover of the Reformer showing them off back then but there was no mention of why they had come up like that. As I pointed out in 2004, the same type of mutated daisies were found by Three Mile Island after it's radiation leaks, and many mutations of everything were abundant following the Chernobyl disaster and the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear bombings.



She has had only a few mutants this year, and I suspect that the radiation, which I believe caused them to mutate, has perhaps washed away or subsided somewhat since 2004. Photos of the same kind of mutants from outside of Three Mile Island taken after the big radiation release there can be seen at-- http://www.tmia.com/photos/daisies.html

It's the same exact strange mutations as the ones Mary's garden has had- large caterpillar like centers and wide flat ‘fascination’ of the stems. Two of the half dozen examples from this year’s crop I have just photographed for y'all to see here. I believe these kind of flowers, Black-Eyed Susies, are more susceptible to low levels of radiation than other kinds of vegetation, and therefore I refer to them as a type of 'Canary in the Coal Mine'.

Last year I marched with the Anti-Nuke group part of the Independence Day parade and I carried one of her mutated daisies which I labled "Radiation Mutation". I heard someone say, "Vermont Yankee helps pays for this parade", as if that was supposed to mean something. I didn't respond to the comment, but thought to myself, yeah, but they won't pay for anyone's cancer treatments!

I believe that the fields across from VT Yankee contain small amounts of this radiation which the cows there consume with their grazing, concentrating the radiation into their manure. Of course, this kind of thing is nearly impossible to prove, mainly because the radiation amounts are minute and below what typical Geiger counters can detect, and besides, small amounts of it can be hard to differentiate from the normal background radiation that exists all around since the nuclear bomb testing done over the years since the Manhattan Project, which blanketed much of the world with extra radioactivity.



For their part, the lady at the Vernon farm told me last year that they hadn't had any complaints about their manure and said she never had any mutated cows. http://www.tmia.com/photos/Cow.html

My original ibratt posting and its comments (didn't have pics), which I posted as 'Rumor' but should have posted as "Health'-http://www.ibrattleboro.com/article.php/20040728141247654

The Advocate noting that Vermont Yankee "releases radiation into the air every day."--http://www.valleyadvocate.com/gbase/News/content.html?oid=oid:142081
See also-
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:-zdvNiJJeGYJ:www.afsc.org/pwork/0509/050916.htm+%22vermont+Yankee%22+radiation+release&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7

Someone's past ibratt post about cancer rates in the area having risen--
http://www.ibrattleboro.com/article.php?story=20040223094252343


*Note- I, Scott, the poster of this info is not, nor has ever purported to be, any kind of 'journalist', and is certainly not a part of any so-called 'media'.

 

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    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: darqmatr on Monday, July 31 2006 @ 06:05 PM GMT+4
    Without having the soil sampled/sent off to be tested for radioactive isotopes, there really is no hard evidence one way or the other. It's certainly "possible" that the source is/was VY. But without an unbiased test it's unfounded to draw a conclusion that VY is the culprit. The cows could've been fed food tainted with medical waste from New Hampshire. You/me/we really don't know...

    On a science/bio note, radiation IS responsible for the diversification of the species --UV from the sun or other sources present in the earth. So here again, radiation is not necessarily bad/evil, etc... There is no way to go back to a pre-radiation world. And if you could, we'd all be single-celled amoeba posting here on iBrat...

    Nice photos. Interesting.
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: Rain Hiawatha on Monday, July 31 2006 @ 11:51 PM GMT+4
    I think it's jumping the gun to see a mutation in a plant and immediately think VY is responsible.

    I've seen many similar, naturally occuring mutations in flowers like gerbera daisies and purple cone flowers. Sometimes, nature just tweaks the genetic makeup of plants and animals and there isn't an environmental cause.

    There are some weird plant diseases and viruses out there that produce induce freakish flowers. "Spring Rose Dwarf", for example is a naturally occuring virus that produces horrible, scary looking flowers on historically prolific and beautiful rose bushes.

    But, I do think it's good to remain vigilant about what's in our backyard and I do appreciate your attention to this story. I do, however, think that are more at risk from the pesticides, fungicides and fertilizers that so many people liberally douse their gardens with.

    Just my 2 cents...
    Looking for more info...
    Authored by: Scott on Tuesday, August 01 2006 @ 05:10 PM GMT+4
    I'm open to any solid info on what else COULD have done this to her Black Eyed Susies, but she hasn't used any pesticides, fungicides or fertilizers other than the manure, and that was 2 years ago. She says she's seen only an occaisional mutant in the past with the BE Susies but even those were not at all mutated to the extent these are, with the really wide stem to go with the caterpiller like centers- just like the ones that popped up around TMI after it's substantial release of radiation.
    http://www.tmia.com/photos/daisies.html
    And besides, if it was some chemical or a virus cause, wouldn't it have caused a lot more of the daisies in her garden to have been mutants?

    ---
    You can lead the sheeple to the truth but you can't make them think. www.911wasaninsidejob.com www.infowars.com

    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: thehistoryman on Wednesday, August 02 2006 @ 09:11 PM GMT+4
    I have seen some weird looking mutations in the downtown area recently too... Maybe this is a result of VY
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: darqmatr on Tuesday, August 01 2006 @ 06:22 PM GMT+4
    Great photos, Scott.

    The thing is, we really don't know what was in the delivered manure. And just because it was close to VY, doesn't prove a connection.

    Reminds me of a Sherlock Holmes story where Watson finds the victim's clothes down by the river. Sherlock replies, "Just because the clothes are there, doesn't mean the crime was committed there."

    The manure needs to be tested. And, prior gardening practices on the piece of land. And both of this is very hard to do. Having worked at VY, I can speak for myself (and my friends, there) that if I knew anything was released that would harm friends/family, I guarantee you I would've made a bigger stink about it than GFV does...

    Awesome photos. What I want to know, does radiation cure male baldness? Not that I need it. But I might one day ;)
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: cgrotke on Tuesday, August 01 2006 @ 06:28 PM GMT+4
    Those are really deformed flowers. I've never seen anything like that.

    The manure is highly suspect, too but as everyone would like, testing
    would tell
    more.

    We should invest in some local tools for measuring radiation, so we
    can do independent studies of the area. It would be great to be
    gathering data on a daily basisi and making it public for everyone to
    come to their own conclusions.

    Darq, do you know of any good radiation monitors that are affordable?
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: annikee on Tuesday, August 01 2006 @ 07:30 PM GMT+4
    I'll chip in 5 or 10 on that. Have there ever been radiation levels publically taken around here?

    ---
    *******
    BB & 93
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: darqmatr on Tuesday, August 01 2006 @ 07:35 PM GMT+4
    You really can't buy a monitor and just "frisk" the land. You could-- but it wouldn't tell you what the source ingredient of the raditation is, only that "a" atom/molecule is throwing off "parts." And it could be a naturally occuring atom/element. Or... somebody buried a smoke detector in their backyard. A hundred different causes, from old bricks to grandpa's barium enima bag.

    The only way to know for sure, is to gather representative samples (portions from various locations, and various depths) and have these samples sent to an independent lab. The dirt could be analyzed and the actual/specific radioactive isotope isolated as to what element it comes from.

    Then, if you know the element, you can "sorta" track down who/what uses it in what industry/manufacturer. FYI... Fuel assemblies (don't quote me on this regarding VY) are "tagged" with specific isotopes so that if an assembly develops a small leak, the specific assembly can be located and dealt with as necessary.

    As you can see, the process to "know" is quite involved. And even if you have some sort of undustrial radioactive waste in your backyard, the dose coming from it could be less than the UV dose you pick up by digging for it. So the risk from radiation has to be taken from a relative perspective. And, knowing that radioative material occurs naturally within your own body. So it's not something that can be avoided. But certainly, the big industrial risks should be dealt with cautiously.
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, August 02 2006 @ 12:49 PM GMT+4
    So we ordinary folk can't really know? It's too hard and too costly for us
    to gather this information ourselves? Then all we are left with is
    accumulated anecdotal evidence, like photos of deformed flowers and gut
    instincts.

    It sounds like the only way we could know for sure is if a big company
    with ties to nuclear testing did the tests and shared the results with the
    community. : )
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: darqmatr on Wednesday, August 02 2006 @ 03:54 PM GMT+4
    Nah, it's not that bleak. But mutations are a normal part of the evolution process. That and genetic dreaming to explore...

    There really is no way to measure how much radiation you pick up on a normal day doing normal things. You'd have to walk around with instrumentation attached to a lead suit. Looking for radiation in one's life is similiar to looking for biological cell division that occurs. It is a normal part of life in many ways.

    What we can do, is make sure industries that utilize radioactive material are doing so with health/safety in mind. And you can look at the people who work in the industry. Are there higher incidences of medical problems reported by nuclear workers? Because they truly are the canary in the atomic mineshaft.
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, August 02 2006 @ 04:07 PM GMT+4
    Right, it would be hard to measure normal radiation. But we are
    interested in finding out about something unusual and not normal.
    That makes it a bit easier - more like looking for a needle in a
    haystack rather than hay in a haystack.

    What we are looking for are the tagged isotopes, right? That would be
    abnormal, or at least unnatural.

    I think the nuclear workers would be the best informed about taking
    precautions and would not be a good sample as canaries in coalmines.
    I think the people, plants and animals within, say, 10 miles of the
    source would be more reliable.

    The guys we met when we toured the training simulator all lived
    further away than any of us in town (with the exception of you,
    darq... you lived the closest, I believe.), so their exposure would be
    limited to the time they work, not 24 hours a day for the people who,
    say, live down the road from the waste storage, or the plants or
    animals right there.
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: PutneyReject on Wednesday, August 02 2006 @ 07:10 PM GMT+4
    Try contacting VT Dept of Health, but since there is zero reason to suspect that there is any radioactive material above naturally occurring levels (let alone coming from vermont yankee), I doubt they will take much interest.

    Paying a private lab to do the analysis is another option.

    http://healthvermont.gov/enviro/rad/rad_health.aspx

    It's sad to see so many people misinformed about radiation and radioactive materials emitted from nuclear power plants, including vermont yankee.

    You can all post messages on this forum yet you seem incapable of using Google to find the most basic of information.
    Putting money where mouth is
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, August 02 2006 @ 07:18 PM GMT+4
    Then I'll put 5 or 10 in on sending some samples to a private lab. What's that signifying element? Strontium 90? I don't remember.

    ---
    *******
    BB & 93
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, August 02 2006 @ 07:49 PM GMT+4
    I use search engines all the time and find it a bit odd to criticize
    people coming to iBrattleboro to contribute their news and views of
    local issues. Google indexes this site, too, so any information we
    gather gets out there, too.

    darmatr worked at VY and has a knowledge of nuclear power, so it
    made sense to ask him directly for his personal opinion on testing. We
    have experts right here sharing reliable information almost every day.

    Thanks for the additional information. I think there is a difference
    between benefits of nuclear power and side effects of nuclear waste
    being stored on site. So do people working there.

    Being new to the site, you may have missed our field trip to VY's
    Training facility a few years back... do a search and find out what we
    found out by going in person.
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: darqmatr on Wednesday, August 02 2006 @ 10:55 PM GMT+4
    Okay. I admit. Sometimes my stories do mutate. But they are friendly ;)

    On radiation... I've probably picked up more than any "regular" citizen of Brattleboro. Not to mention I've worked just a few feet away from an operating reactor in the past. Slept near them while onboard ship in the Navy. And handled a lot of radioactive material over the years. So I'm probably a little desensitized to being fearful of it. I also keep in touch with friends who have worked in the industry for 20-some years. All of us, in general, have received way more dose than the average citizen. I'm not aware of any health issues with myself or others pertaining to our work in the industry. I'm not saying it's safe. There's a LOT of energy coming off the atomic marbles when they crack. But the potential harm I may have gotten might not show up till i'm dead and they realize a thousand years from now I still look like Elvis. There's really not enough longterm data on the effects of low-level radiation.
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: rwiggam on Thursday, August 03 2006 @ 02:04 AM GMT+4
    Wow how can people miss a point so blatanrly as what Putney Reject was trying to make to you.

    First of all Radiation is easy to measure (yes you have to have the right device but once you do it is simple) no magic involved.

    Second Radiation follows the laws of physics which are immune to feelings or political leanings, and contrary to what alot of people may believe the State of Vermont's Health department is in no way inclined to do anything to protect VY if it were doing something incorrectly.

    Larry Crist of VDH is a very outspoken critic of the plant and in charge of the Radiation monitoring programs around the plant. These programs which are extensive and include monitoring of the wild life. plant life, water, soil, air, domestic animals and even milk (such as from the farm in question). It would be virtually impossible to hide any increase in the background radiation if it were coming from VY.

    The documents are available from VDH for as long as the plant has operated.(As suggested by PR all you gotta do is ask for them)

    Finally I think what Putney Reject was trying to tell you in her in your face manner is there is ample independent information on the effects of radiation available at a few key strokes on the web. While Darqmatr is very knowledgeable on certain aspects of nuclear power he does not exhibit a deep knowledge of radiation sampling techniques. May I suggest to you that there is also likely at least one scientist at the Univeristy of Vermont who is also somewhat of a radiation expert.

    And by the way just because some one is new to the site as a poster does not mean they have not followed what is written here I know I have and I only very recently got an account.

    Does it occur to anyone that the farm in question is immediately adjacent to the railroad which has a virtual smorgsboard of chemicals traveling by night and day not to mention Rte 142. Is anyone aware of all the businesses in the area which emit or discharge chemicals into our local environment.

    Assumingthis plant anomaly is from VY or even that it is not a natural occurence is inline with the Occams Razor theories such as those espoused in Carl Sagan's "Science: a Light In the Darkness" (and other places including Google ).
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: darqmatr on Thursday, August 03 2006 @ 04:27 PM GMT+4
    Yes-- you can go in your backyard and "measure" radiation. But the numbers won't tell you much unless you know what isotope it is coming from. So it has to be sent off to a lab to isolate this info.

    My background is in instrumentation and controls, which includes calibrating radiation monitors, control systems, safety systems, etc.. And teaching the stuff at VY and numerous other nukes. I'm not an expert, others know more. But it's foolish to grab a radiation meter/monitor and use it unless you know what you're looking, understand radiation, the different types of radiation, and potential initiating causes.

    Until there is some sort of education program in the area that teaches the science of nuclear/radiation without creating a battle of entrenched minds, then it will be one issue after another that is based on half-fact, half-emotions, with a half-life of 100 years.

    I'm actually kinda' surprised that there are no other VY (or ex-VY like me) who have come out of the closet and post on here. How can we have a balanced conversation/debate when it seems I'm the only one with a connection to VY, supposedly one of the biggest issues in Brattleboro. Puzzling... though I suspect Sean B is hiding here, somewhere.

    I think I have a healthy concern/respect for nuclear stuff. I don't want anyone to get hurt from it. But some of the fear generated from mis-information or anti-rhetoric doesn't help anything. The bottom line is, you/me/we need electricity. And we consume way to much for alternatives to take over. And not much is being developed. And there are not a lot of people going into these fields to ensure future design/development. And because our gov't is obsessed with war/oil, the energy issue at home for a sustainable solution seems bleak. Well, not bleak. We just have to get used to walking, buying local, and a host of other things that are probably better for us, anyway.

    I still think those flower piks are radical! ;)
    But we don't *need* this nuke plant
    Authored by: Malik on Thursday, August 03 2006 @ 06:09 PM GMT+4
    You say "you/me/we need electricity" and you also say " We just have to get used to walking, buying local"

    As I understand it, none of the electricity generated at VY is used in VT but is sold out of state. We should be 'localvores' and buy local, yes, but VT should be exporting maple syrup, ski tickets, milk and cheese and such good things, not dangerously made electricity. We in America may consume too much as you say, but I don't think that's true for many Vermonters. If VY shut down today, no one in VT would be out of power due to Vermont's hydroelectric generation facilities which make our power.
    But we don't *need* this nuke plant
    Authored by: darqmatr on Thursday, August 03 2006 @ 06:38 PM GMT+4
    Agreed.

    I know, VT in general is very efficient on electric consumption. But also, it is easy to do this when you don't allow development, and corresponding less job development and lower population growth with dependency on appliances.

    But regarding VY, whether it is actually used in VT depends on the weather and rainfall. A couple dry years and the hydro situation would change. Tie that in with global warming and who knows? It's best to have other power options.

    The other thing is, electric power is put on the grid and pretty much used by everyone. So even if VT got rid of VY, there would be times when they'd have to "borrow" electricity from other states that have assumed the risk for nuclear technology. Or coal plants. Or oil/war. I think it's good for VT to be self-sufficient, eco-green, etc... But I don't think it's right for VT to be nice/clean/green at the expense of putting energy producing devices in someone else's backyard.
    On shutting VY down...
    Authored by: darqmatr on Thursday, August 03 2006 @ 07:11 PM GMT+4
    Personally (being the corporate rebel I am,) I think whether VY runs or not should be placed in the hands of VT citizens. A Yes or No vote. And then VT should live with the situation/responsibility it chooses.

    It may very well be that VT does not need VY. But, once the plant is shutdown and other plants salvage parts from it, it will not be restarted. No matter how desperate the situation becomes.

    I'd like to see alternatives pull the wagon. But even so, I doubt a solar chip factory would ever be approved to be built in Brattleboro because of environment/beauty concerns. So once again, the argument for/against technology seems to be about whose backyard it is built in.

    I guess, the true litmus test would be to shutdown VY, depend on hydro and other states. And when VT has to import electricity from a know nuclear energy supply, I wonder who will bitch about it. Because once VY is in someone else's backyard, I think the "where" electricity comes from will be out of sight, out of mind. I've seen too many situations in the past, when the lights go out, and whoever is riding a ski lift, or stuck in an elevator, or needs water from their well, they really don't care where energy comes from.

    Unfortunately, during a crisis is not the time to design/plan/build the solution.

    And maybe I'm wrong about this...

    We all know how become very dangerous when E drops. Which goes to show just how pervasive/dependent we are on it.
    But we don't *need* this nuke plant
    Authored by: PutneyReject on Thursday, August 03 2006 @ 07:17 PM GMT+4
    Malik's response is the kind of post that really irks me.

    From his or her lack of basic understanding of how the grid works to the statement that none of VY's electricity is used within VT to the fallacy that 100% hydroelectric is an adequate source of baseload electricity and can power VT shows a willful disregard for the facts.

    But we don't *need* this nuke plant
    Authored by: darqmatr on Thursday, August 03 2006 @ 07:58 PM GMT+4
    I'd like to think we're all "brothers and sisters" here ;)

    I think in many ways, all of us know somebody pee'd in the pool with regard to the energy situation. And who's at fault? Production or Consumption? It's frustrating, because I think if we/admin had a clear vision (even a fuzzy one) we could move toward the solution. But as a nation, we seem unable to solve many issues upfront, pre-emminently, without going to war and being torn apart. Maybe it's plain human nature. Maybe it's proof that we don't have the same end goal in mind. Maybe we never did...

    But I think it's important, if not for us, at least for our kids, to try to reach consensus and move towards something better, eco-friendly, and true.

    Myself, and others who have posted here, are capable of living on the land, off the grid, with a copy of Emerson and a female companion (my persuasion.) But in the back of my mind, I know we're all in this together. So damn. We have to get along or what's the use in having community.
    But we can't afford this nuke plant
    Authored by: Malik on Thursday, August 03 2006 @ 07:58 PM GMT+4
    and I don't mean money wise.
    It appears that what I heard and repeated here is wrong, for according to what I read here
    http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:CsJq3J3vu4AJ:www.thesharonacademy.org/pages/sensci.pdf+%22vermont+yankee%22+%22power+is+sold%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

    VT gets a third of its power from nuclear fission, and only 40% comes from hydro, and most of that hydro is from Canada which has cheaper electricity. For some stupid reason, part of the hydro made in VT gets sold out of state too. The point made in that report by Sharon Academy is that VT could be making most of its own power if there were more hydroplants made, more wind turbines put up and biomass plants built.

    As for those who don't care where their electric comes from, the people should vote in open ballot on nuclear of not, and all those who are pro-nuclear should be forcibly moved, made to live in a part of the state separate from those who vote for only alternative non-deadly sources. They won't have to deal with what they call unsightly wind generators, we'll have them elsewhere. But all the nuclear waste from VY should be stockpiled right there in the pro-nuke people neighborhoods for them to live with. Does that suggestion irk you Putney?
    Instate use
    Authored by: cbridge on Thursday, August 03 2006 @ 10:04 PM GMT+4
    Vt Electric Coop buys a significant percentage of its power from VY
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: rwiggam on Thursday, August 03 2006 @ 11:47 PM GMT+4
    The entertainment continues! Forcibly moving people because they are pro-nuke (or they don't agree with you or because they are irked by ignorance wow is that a right wing or left wing tactic) .

    I'd have no issue living next to the nuke waste as it is currently stored. I don't like breathing all the smog from Midwestern Coal plants and I am glad I don't live in a city full of smog from automobiles etc... but no I won't give up my car I will live the compromise. 30 miles to work is to far to bike and no one around here is willing to have commuter rail (heh that is a good reason to live in a city though). I also don't want 100 of railcars of coal moving past my house weekly.

    Regarding how power moves about the grids you can find out alot about it if you search through the websites of the Independent System Operators (ISOs). The closest to us is ISONE (ISO New England) which is controlled out of Holyoke MA and they are tied to ISONY (ISO New York) run out of Albany NY. The next closest to them is in Pennsylvannia (PJM the exact names that represents escapes me without looking it up). These higher levels systems are for the most part 345KV (kilovolt or thousand volt) systems. There are also sub grids operators below this level running 115KV systems.

    I believe you would discover that the dams on the VT and Western Ma rivers are 115KV and mostly shipping power into the ISONE and ISONY market which is very lucrative. VY advertises that they sell 30% of their power to VT electric companies like GMP and CVPS and the various COOPs. They also say that 70% of all the power produced in VT is produced at VY, other sources are the Wood Burning station in Burlington, the various dams, and of course the windmills at Searsburg.

    Generators like VY have to sell their power into the ISO a day ahead and if for some reason they can't deliver at the quoted price (the amount that was offerred) they have to pony up the diff. The ISO makes very sophisticated forecasts about how much power will be used the next day. Then they arrange to get the necessary power from the producers and deliver it to the consumers or their agents the power companies. They also have arranged for extra power to bring on to the grid if some of the base goes away for instance a plant trips offline. Some of that extra is spinning waiting to be brought on at a moments notice, some is 10 minute reserve etc... These reserves are a couple of things easy to bring online quickly, and expensive. They all have there drawbacks.

    To get to where we are at in VT Entergy had to agree to sell power at very attractive fixed prices as base load. This is the stabilest sources that are basically always on line at 100% they can't start up or backdown as easy as the spinning reserves. Having baseload at a fixed price is attractive for stabile economy reasons.

    In order to have a say in the current markets you need to have a large need for electricity that makes the producers eager to sell it to you at a fixed price (which at least VT does not posess). The other way is to have a large source of power you can use at a guranteed price (like VY). If you give up on that you will likely be at the whims of the producers no matter what your state government tries to do about it.

    Those power sources sources which are not baseload are expensive because they can demand bucks for their convienent availability. Many of them are so called renewable energy sources. That is an argument for another day but there is really no such things a renewable if you drill back down to the most basic physical concepts.

    When thinking of the renewables though consider that the wind does not always blow, the sun does not always shine, and some times the rivers barely flow (in addition not many of them make power a high voltage (115Kv or above) so they are harder to ship over the grid (the lower the voltage the greater the losses). If you want to replace nukes, coal, and oil plants you have to have alot of new infrastructure to support it not all of which is enviro friendly

    For instance more flooded valleys or man made lakes and, more blocked rivers to store water, (to hold water to operate hydros), lots of land covered with wind towers (aparently not attractive and causes dead birds, bats etc..). alot of battery storage which is potentially a hazmat and expensive (to supply power when wind and sun and river not available), motor generator facilities to use that battery stored power (more land and expense). You also need alot more capacity, you need capital that finaciers are willing to risk.

    I guess it all comes down to there are no simple pat answers nor the need to forcibly move people. All the info is out there to be had folks maybe we should put down the rocks and get educated.
    Mary's Radiation Mutations Revisted
    Authored by: darqmatr on Thursday, August 03 2006 @ 11:57 PM GMT+4
    Thank you. I learned some new stuff...