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    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance    
    Monday, August 21 2006 @ 02:18 PM GMT+5
    Contributed by: Malik

    OpinionThanks to a few anarchist fools who went nude downtown, those who have enjoyed going nude at a certain secluded swimming hole in town may now lose their right to be nude at the place that has been an informal clothing optional swimming site for years. The Harmony parking lot nudies shown on the cover of last Saturday's Reformer are succeeding only in helping to mess it up for all who enjoy going nude at the West River on the edge of town.

    The swimming area behind the Professional Buildings on Route 30, known as "the cornfield" is a great swimming spot set back far from the road and cannot be seen by any homes, which is why people have not had a problem going nude there. For years, nudists and those in bathing suits have enjoyed recreation at that same beach area without much of any contention.

    Vermont is rare in that it does not have a state law against nudity. One can legally go nude at just about any secluded place in the state. Rutland is one town that has an anti-public nudity ordinance, and Wilmington had a short-lived ordinance against public nudity a few years ago. The Wilmington one came about by a public vote of the town people who were swayed by the anti-nudist propaganda of a Vernon woman with a vacation cabin on the Harriman Reservoir close to the "Ledges", a long established nude recreation spot. This was a case of the few ruining it for the many, since some who went there could not stay in the general Ledges area but strayed too far up the shoreline to where they were in view of the cabin.

    The ordinance should not have had any effect on those in the main Ledges area since it is not in view from any road or homes, yet it was nonetheless enforced against anyone being nude at the secluded private area anyway. It should have only been used to cite those being nude and in view of the cabin owners at the far end, but the police treated the entire area as being 'public' even though it is not, and is in fact privately owned by a power company which has to by an old agreement with the town, allow people to come in and recreate there. Town voters fortunately overturned the Wilmington ordinance shortly afterward, but the Brattleboro Selectboard will not likely let the people have a special vote on whether or not to pass such an ordinance. We've seen the Brattleboro Selectboard try to force fluoride down people's throats in the drinking water just a few years ago, and they only 'allowed' the people to vote on it (in a non-binding referendum) because enough complained that it would be a violation of our rights.

    If the Brattleboro Selectboard passes an anti-public nudity ordinance, it should not legally have any force or effect on the West River swimming area since it is secluded and not what should be considered public. However, just as the Wilmington police felt justified in citing people for nudity at the private Ledges spot, Brattleboro cops will no doubt also feel that they can enforce a similar ordinance at the West River. Hopefully with any they ordinance they pass they're have the sense to word it to pertain to Brattleboro proper only and specifically exempt the secluded swimming areas on the outskirts of town.

    Responsible nudists are always careful to not go nude anywhere that can be called open public space, where common sense (something lost on the Harmony Lot anarchists) tells them that their nudity will offend others, causing contention and the excuse for a law that otherwise would not be necessary. I refer to the Harmony Lot group as anarchists because at least one of the Harmony Lot nudists shown and named in the Reformer, who goes by the name 'Pat the Bunny', is a self-described anarchist and has written in support of anarchy in a little local 'zine' publication.

    anarchy is defined as: Absence or utter disregard of government; lawless confusion and disorder

    The Seattle riots of 1999 incurred during what was supposed to be peaceful demonstrations against the WTO and globalization. It was those few who called themselves anarchists that broke windows and created the disorder that gave the cops the excuse to crack down on everyone. The troublemaking anarchists got away with their property damage and mayhem. It was the innocent peaceful protesters that suffered from being beaten, peppersprayed and shot with rubber bullets by the overly aggressive police. Over the fear of having to put up with such an out-of-control crisis as Seattle had, many town and city selectboards across the country passed ordinances against protesting or demonstrating. Many of the local laws were in violation of our 1st Amendment freedom of speech, but once a law is passed it can be hard to get it overturned. You Harmony Lot nudes are not true nudists just as the Seattle window smashers were not 1st Amendment exercising protesters. You bozos do nothing but create the excuse now for a law that will likely end up hurting the freedoms of responsible and considerate nudists.
    Thanks a lot buttheads !

    Link to read the "Leahy Memorandum", which has effectively been the police enforcement policy in Vermont for nudism since then State Attorney Pat Leahy wrote in in 1972. -

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/467596756?ltl=1156186320

    Regarding those who swim and recreate nude it says:
    "On private land out of view of the public: The State has no legitimate interest and swimmers should be left alone."



     

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  • Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance | 35 comments | Create New Account
    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance
    Authored by: Rolf on Monday, August 21 2006 @ 04:05 PM GMT+5
    Malik,

    you make some good points, and some other points I disagree with, but the only thing I want to reply to is

    "However, just as the Wilmington police felt justified in citing people for nudity at the private Ledges spot, Brattleboro cops will no doubt also feel that they can enforce a similar ordinance at the West River."

    No doubt? Maybe we should ask them first.

    Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong, maybe they will say one thing and do the other,

    but let's at least ask them before we jump to the worst possible projection into the future.

    If you read the article in the Reformer, did you notice the quote of one of the police officers ?

    "How's it hanging' was the supposed quote yelled from the police cruiser.

    No harrasment, no intimidation. It seems possible they won't give a damn, if its out of sight.

    For myself, the nudists in the Parking lot have brought a smile, and have started a lot of interesting questions and conversations, and provided some lucky on lookers the chance to see naked skatebording hula hoping madness in the middle of the day. So far, no harm done, and some good. I would name the specific individual, but I don't know if he wants his name listed here, so I'll just say "Hats off to you, oh un named man !"


    In closing,
    If they write some stupid anti skinny dipping law, I promise to dedicate an entire two days gathering petitions to reverse it.

    Any other pledge takers ?
    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance
    Authored by: annikee on Monday, August 21 2006 @ 04:10 PM GMT+5
    Sign me up! It was John Martin himself who said,"What's the big deal?" For once, I agree with him!

    ---
    *******
    BB & 93
    BPD did harass nudists at the Cornfield before
    Authored by: Malik on Tuesday, August 22 2006 @ 03:20 PM GMT+5
    You ask why I think the cops would enforce it there?

    We would hope the cops are not such jerks as to go out of their way to enforce such an ordinance at the secluded swimming holes, but at least some have proven they will (Wilmington) and some of Brattleboro's have 'cracked down' when no ordinance even exists here--
    It was 3 or 4 summers ago when I heard from a couple different people at the Cornfield swimming area about what had happened a few days before. They said that some flatlander couple with their little girl was there, and when the girl saw a naked man she 'shrieked' and the couple were miffed and stormed out. A little while after, the BPD came down, and I forget if they said it was one or two cops, but that the cop(s) told the few people there that they had to put they're clothes on. It blew over of course, and there hasn't been any problem since that I know of. But it shows that yes, when someone complains, it gives cops an excuse to enforce even non-existant laws as the particicular officer(s) may feel like doing. If I was there that day I think I would have told the cop(s) where to go.

    Maybe we can make use of the publicity and make a calendar of pictures of them to raise money for something, as did these other Brattleboro nude guys!-

    http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/WolfFiles/story?id=90918&page=1


    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance
    Authored by: dwbarlow on Monday, August 21 2006 @ 05:09 PM GMT+5
    I'm pretty sure the town can draft an ordinance that would only affect the downtown business district, and not the swimming holes on the outskirts of town.
    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Monday, August 21 2006 @ 06:25 PM GMT+5
    Does this mean all the women will have to wear the veil again?

    I'm still waiting to hear back about the protest idea with the fake
    breasts... : )=
    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance
    Authored by: Linaelin on Monday, August 21 2006 @ 07:04 PM GMT+5
    Buddy Love means to say that everything we do is beneath him.
    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Monday, August 21 2006 @ 07:46 PM GMT+5
    No, I'm serious about American women rising up and protesting this
    double standard of having to wear a top. It's a stupid law. Most of Europe
    allows topless beach bathing by both sexes, so why can't we?

    Er, or were you referring to something else when you talked about being
    "on top"? nudge nudge...wink wink..
    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Monday, August 21 2006 @ 10:53 PM GMT+5
    ***...the police treated the entire area as being 'public' even though it is not, and is in fact privately owned by a power company which has to by an old agreement with the town, allow people to come in and recreate there. ***
    Ahhh..., Malik, that's the definition of "public place," it doesn't have to be publicly owned, just open to the public. And, as you point out yourself, the shores of Harriman are open to the public.
    The police weren't overstepping their bounds, they were doing what the ordinance required. In fact, by most "public nudity" ordinances, it is illegal for you to be nude on your own private property if you can be seen from a public place - such as a road, or other place open to the public - OR by another person from another private property.
    There are plenty of good reasons to reject a nudity ordinance. Not to mention that the idea of making one's birthday suit illegal seems genuinely loony.

    -Maus


    ---
    Watch this space for more information about the Walter Mellon Foundation's global art project. See art displayed from around the world. Art Happens.
    Story has hit the big time now!
    Authored by: PutneyReject on Tuesday, August 22 2006 @ 11:38 AM GMT+5
    Well, the story has made it to Fark. Check out the thread at:

    http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2244533
    Story has hit the big time now!
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Tuesday, August 22 2006 @ 01:36 PM GMT+5
    Ha ha ha!!

    Funny how what those posters say, PC-wise, kind of makes most of what
    I've been posting seem pretty tame by comparison.

    I'd like to have "Breast Fest" make a comeback. We could make it a big
    tourist thing. Combine it with the "give a HOOT, don't pollute" message,
    make it an environmental-freedom parade.
    Story has hit the big time now!
    Authored by: PutneyReject on Tuesday, August 22 2006 @ 02:00 PM GMT+5
    If you think that's bad, you should the religion, politics, and evolution vs. creationism arguments over there.

    There are a couple posters in that Fark thread who are/were from Brattleboro.
    Story has hit the big time now!
    Authored by: cgrotke on Tuesday, August 22 2006 @ 02:24 PM GMT+5
    And RawStory, via the AP.

    We're all nude under our clothing.

    Will Brattleboro's mood be seen as nude, rude, lewd, prude, or
    misconstrued? It's up to Selectboard dudes (and dudette, but that doesn't
    rhyme).
    Story has hit the big time now!
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Tuesday, August 22 2006 @ 02:39 PM GMT+5
    Where's BCTV on this? If they did a show on it, would it's airing be
    banned? Or, if they blurred the "nasty" bits and pieces, maybe it could
    be a story? I don't think going nude all over town is very practical, but if
    the Select Board does something maroon-ish and decides to ban nudity
    at swimming holes, they're being stupid. (note to readers: this is just my
    opinion; I'm not saying that they have Gomer Pyle IQs)
    It's the breast covering thing that I find "hypocritical" though. The
    Europeans I knew would always laugh at the Americans who said they
    were so free, yet had to wear a top at all times, even on the beach in
    most places.
    Private property isn't public, state property is OK for nudity
    Authored by: Malik on Tuesday, August 22 2006 @ 03:50 PM GMT+5
    As I see it the swimming areas of the Cornfield and the Ledges are not legally the same as what you describe. They are not 'open to the public' in the way that a shopping mall is. They are different because they are secluded, and the property of each is privately owned, the woods behind the Ledges is owned by the power co., the field behind the West River area is owned by some farmer or whoever. The fact they are privately owned areas and secluded should mean that Leahy's enforcement policy should be applied, that --"On private land out of view of the public: The State has no legitimate interest and swimmers should be left alone."

    In each case, the public cannot see in, but can come in and then see the area. The fact that members of the public can come in doesn't make it public.

    If you own property next to a stream in Vermont, you cannot tell someone walking along it to get lost. As long as the fisherman/hiker whatever doesn't stray up away from the stream more on to your land then they can be there. If the person is nude, then you do have a legitimate right to complain if you can see them from your home.

    If you're hiking the Appalachian Trail in Vermont, and nude, and the trail happens to go by a house, then the people there have a bit of a right to not have to see you naked, and you should be dressed walking in view from houses. Along the secluded parts of the trail in VT there is no law against being nude.

    "birthday suit"
    -yes, proper formal attire for a Vermont outdoor party at the (secluded) beach

    Those who are offended by nudity have plenty of swimming areas to go to that are established as bathing suits only areas.
    "Public" doesn't necessarily refer to ownership, Malik.
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, August 22 2006 @ 11:13 PM GMT+5
    Sure, I can understand how you see it, it's just that common practice and well-established law says otherwise. Look up the legal definition of "public place" - it includes any privately owned property or establishment that's open to the public. Like a beach, or a store, or whatever. Leahy's statement means on private land that isn't open to the public and can't be viewed by the public - plain and clear. Just because you think of a place like the Ledges as a private nude beach, doesn't make it so. It is a place that is open to any member of the public - just like the Price Chopper - and if there is a public nudity ordinance in effect, you can't be nekkid there, period.
    Make it a privately owned "members only" nude beach and and figure out a way to shield the view from other recreational users of the lake/pond/stream, and an ordinance would have no effect on skinny dippers.


    ***If you own property next to a stream in Vermont, you cannot tell someone walking along it to get lost. ***
    That's because lakes, ponds, and waterways are OPEN TO THE PUBLIC in Vermont. Your statement alone ought to tell you that private property along a waterway is not "secluded" from public view.

    ***If you're hiking the Appalachian Trail in Vermont, and nude, and the trail happens to go by a house, then the people there have a bit of a right to not have to see you naked,***
    What about other hikers on the trail? They don't have the same right?

    ***and you should be dressed walking in view from houses.***
    That's good sense. But there is no law compelling you to wear clothes except along a section of trail in a town that has a public nudity ordinance. (Who on earth would want to hike the Long Trail naked? talk about blackfly bites in bad places.)

    -Maus


    ---
    Watch this space for more information about the Walter Mellon Foundation's global art project. See art displayed from around the world. Art Happens.
    Private property isn't public, state property is OK for nudity
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, August 23 2006 @ 03:06 PM GMT+5
    I think one thing that's missing here is that nobody has talked about why the residents of Whitingham pushed for the ordinance in the first place, and it wasn't simple nudity. I boated a lot on Harriman, and what was viewable from the water wasn't simple nudity. It was Big Sex, alot of it, everyday, in the open.
    As long as people are just being naked, who cares?
    Human bodies are not to be ashamed of, made fun of or unnecessarily to be hidden. If everybody was naked, it'd be hard to conceal a weapon ;D.

    ---
    *******
    BB & 93
    Sorry Maus, it's been clear for years...
    Authored by: Malik on Wednesday, August 23 2006 @ 02:44 PM GMT+5
    You're "well-established law for years" has not exactly been a law but a lack of and an enforcement policy (the Leahy Memorandum). I'm talking here of places like the Cornfield but also along any trail where you're on state property- because there is no law against nudity in VT, no one therefore has a legitimate right to complain on such land about seeing you merely being nude and have you charged with something. That's the way it's been since at least the Leahy enforcement policy.

    If a town wanted to enforce their municiple ordinance at the Cornfield I say it should not be enforcable there because it is private- and not really open to the public per se, but people can go there legally because of the river being there, they can walk along the side of it. Therefore, their right to be nude should not be stepped on since they are on private land out of public view. The owner doesn't have to actually give permission for them to be there at the riverside, but can ask them to put their clothes on when it's in view of their home or even just not to hang out, especially if they're raising a ruckus.

    Just because a place is 'sort of open' to anyone of
    the public doesn't mean it's welcome to the public, and also you cannot neccesarily 'hang out' there, even clothed if some property owner there didn't want you to do more than just fish/swim and move on. There is a balance in the enforcement, there has to be for harmony. The property owner has rights but so do others who are merely nude, at least in Vermont.
    Don't be obtuse.
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, August 23 2006 @ 04:31 PM GMT+5
    We all know that the state has no public nudity law, that's why the town would have to enact their own ordinance to make public nakedness illegal.

    What is "established law" is that a place, privately owned or not, that is open to the public is "a public place." It has nothing, necessarily, to do with any town's nudity ordinance. It is simply the legal definition of "public place."

    There is no loophole for "sort of open" to the public places in Vermont. Either it is open to the public, or it is not. Period.

    What I'm trying to tell you is that if Brattleboro enacts a general public nudity ordinance, then it will be illegal to be nude, in Brattleboro, in any place open to, or visible to the public. It doesn't matter if the place is owned by the town, the state, a corporation, a utility, or the Tooth Fairy.
    You may think the law ought to be different than it is, but you will be sorely disappointed if the selectboard passes such an ordinance. Nudity will be illegal at the Cornfield and any other place that is open to the public. "Private" and "privately owned" are two separate and unrelated concepts under the law.

    I'm not just guessing here, Malik. I'm not pontificating about how I think things are or oughta be. I actually know how this works. I've read and understand the legal underpinnings of this. Poured over statutes. Read case law. Even read the famous Leahy statement.
    And I'm trying to tell you this so you'll understand they aren't just coming for the people in the Harmony Lot. They're coming for everyone. And who knows what freedom they'll be demanding you give up next in the name of someone else's idea of the common good.

    Your argument is not with me. It is with the law.

    -Maus out


    ---
    Watch this space for more information about the Walter Mellon Foundation's global art project. See art displayed from around the world. Art Happens.
    Laws are not written in stone, neither are the interpretations of them
    Authored by: Malik on Thursday, August 24 2006 @ 02:21 PM GMT+5
    Yes, assuming an ordinance is passed that doesn't somehow exempt the secluded swimming areas by private land (where nudists should be left alone as per the Leahy policy) then my argument would be with that law. But it wouldn't be just myself, as I would hope others who enjoy the area would get together and either have the selectboard change the ordinance or if neccesary disobey it and continue as it has been used for years.

    You say " if Brattleboro enacts a general public nudity ordinance, then it will be illegal to be nude, in Brattleboro, in any place open to, or visible to the public."

    I contend that the swimming hole is not visible to the public, not unless you were to stop your car on the I 91 bridge nearby and get out a powerful set of binoculars, then you could possibly see someone nude at the beach, but you can't stop on the bridge anyway. And I will still contend, and encourage others to stand by the point, that it is not really 'open to the public' anyhow. The land is private on one side and state owned on the other. I would fight any infraction charge I get on that grounds, and that the Leahy policy should take presidence. Brattleboro has had another town ordinance in effect that said one cannot pass out literature in public. That one was definately against the 1st Amendment and therefore not enforcable. Laws are not written in stone.

    And no Maus, they're not "coming for everyone" and all freedoms. That's more sensationalistic than realistic. Cops and lawmakers have much more important things to worry about than someone stripping down at a beach out of public view, and besides, no one really has a right to not be offended about any little thing they don't like. Like I said, there has to be harmony, and what the nekkid people in Harmony Lot did has brought disharmony. They may be anarchists not caring about people being rightfully offended at they're nudity in such a public place, but the result is that they've created the excuse for the very thing that anarchists hate- a law.

    Oh, there's another thing here- drinking is not allowed at all in Harmony Lot. You'll get a ticket for cracking open a beer while sitting in your parked vehicle there. But the cops know people drink at the swimming areas and have seen them doing so when they've had to come down to rescue someone hurt or drowned. They've never enforced a no public drinking law at swimming areas like the Cornfield that I know of. I believe that's because they really cannot, because as I've said- it's not the same as a 'public place' or 'open to the public' just because people can get away with hanging out there. That is the case with a parking lot, but I would think (and hope) that the law (and lawmakers) is not so blind that it can't see the difference between a parking lot and an out of the way secluded beach.

    I'll call Leahy and ask him to stand up for us. Yeah, he'll do that. He's a wild and crazy guy, I know he'll come down to the Cornfield and get nude with us in solidarity. Remillard on the other hand... he's scary.
    Laws are not written in stone, neither are the interpretations of them
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Thursday, August 24 2006 @ 03:58 PM GMT+5
    ***...assuming an ordinance is passed that doesn't somehow exempt the secluded swimming areas by private land***
    Yes, Barlow mentioned that. I'm not sure how that would work - although I don't doubt that such an ordinance could be crafted. I'd want to see a model ordinance first.

    ***But it wouldn't be just myself, as I would hope others who enjoy the area would get together and either have the selectboard change the ordinance***
    Why wait? Get involved now, before you lose your rights. It doesn't pay to have faith in the common sense of the selectboard or the law. Hoping that the town won't enforce the law in your happy little nudist haven is not a good strategy for maintaining your legal rights.

    ***I contend that the swimming hole is not visible to the public***
    Contend away. You know all it takes is one person to complain. And someone will. Maybe it will happen right away, maybe it will take years. But then the police will have to do something about it.

    ***And no Maus, they're not "coming for everyone" and all freedoms. That's more sensationalistic than realistic.***
    You sure? Paid any attention to the federal government lately? Americans are getting all too comfortable with giving up their freedoms. And government, at every level, is getting too comfortable with taking them.

    ***it's not the same as a 'public place' or 'open to the public' just because people can get away with hanging out there.***
    (heh heh, you said "hanging out.")
    So the people who go there are guilty of tresspassing?

    -Maus


    ---
    Watch this space for more information about the Walter Mellon Foundation's global art project. See art displayed from around the world. Art Happens.
    Laws are not written in stone, neither are the interpretations of them
    Authored by: Malik on Saturday, August 26 2006 @ 01:24 PM GMT+5
    "Contend away. You know all it takes is one person to complain. And someone will. Maybe it will happen right away, maybe it will take years. But then the police will have to do something about it. "

    -as I pointed out, at least one family did complain at the Cornfield and the cops came that afternoon and told people to put their clothes on even though there was no law saying they had to. I would have told the cops to stick it, and there would have been nothing they could legally do to me. Even with a public nudity ordinance, that place is not 'public'.
    The police do not 'have to do something about it' and better not unless the law actually allows them. And even if they think it seems to allow them to as it may end up being written, the law is still not written in stone and can be fought on the grounds that I've contended- that it should apply to public areas only, which the secluded swimming holes are not.

    No it is not 'trespassing' to be there at the Cornfield. As I said, they are not welcomed there by the property owner, but cannot be told to leave either because of the fact that the river is there. If you own land next to a river or lake like the Harriman reservoir, you can't stop people from going along side it. I know someone who unsuccessfully tried to get the VT State police to tell people to stay out of the swimming hole he happened to own land next to. He was one who went nude himself but wanted the spot to himself and his friends just because he lived there. But if he was against nudism and complained of nude people there he then would have a legitimate right to have them told to leave as per the Leahy policy.

    As for the government, it's supposed to be by and for the people-us. Over the years I've met a few nude people at the swimming areas who work in the law enforcement field, a sheriff deputy from Mass. and some others who work in the corrections dept. I've heard of one or two cops who have sometimes gone to the Ledges to hang out nude. The state police boat sometimes goes by the Ledges and sees the nude people and some are drinking alcohol, which is legal there for the same reason that being nude is legal there- it isn't 'public', even though the public can go there.
    Laws are not written in stone, neither are the interpretations of them
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Saturday, August 26 2006 @ 04:50 PM GMT+5
    ***No it is not 'trespassing' to be there at the Cornfield***
    So it's open to the public, then?


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    Who's being obtuse now?
    Authored by: Malik on Monday, August 28 2006 @ 10:16 AM GMT+5
    No silly, the Cornfield beach is not 'open to the public' as I've tried to get through- no more than my driveway is, even though its accessable to the public. You can use it to turn around in, and if I'm on vacation then you could even get away with parking there. But you're technically not welcome there and I could make you to leave. The property owner by the Cornfield would have to have a good reason to get someone to leave, such as if they were trashing the place, or if they suddenly were to build a house there and didn't want to see nudies there. Even with a house there, they would still have to allow people to walk along it or swim clothed and they could cut off the easy access to it through their property.
    Good question
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Monday, August 28 2006 @ 11:35 AM GMT+5


    ***the Cornfield beach is not 'open to the public'***
    Well, make up your mind. Didn't you say that private landowners couldn't close a beach to the public in Vermont? By what particular law is this ONE Vermont beach closed to the public?

    -Maus

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    Think Maus!
    Authored by: Malik on Monday, August 28 2006 @ 02:28 PM GMT+5
    Use the noggin God gave you. I never said it was open to the public or closed to the public. No, it doesn't have to be one or the other. My driveway is not open to ther public, but I can't stop a car from turning around in it unless I had a gate. If I own land next to a stream I cannot gate the whole area off, I must allow fishermen etc. to be able to walk along it because people have the right to go along any stream (at least in Vermont I know that's true) just as they have the right to walk down the sidewalk in front of houses.

    A landowner can't totally close off a beach just because they own that land next to the stream, but that they could limit certain activity there if they had a good reason- such as if they have a house there and can see what they don't want to. There is no house there at the Cornfield, so they could not use that excuse.
    There is a house by the Rock River nude swimming area in Newfane, but the owners are nudists themselves and so it's allright to be nude there in sight of their home. If they were not nudists and didn't want to see them, they could put signs up at the far ends of their property saying no nudity beyond this point, but they still could not do anything to stop clothed people from walking by.
    Everybody should think Maus!
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Monday, August 28 2006 @ 03:02 PM GMT+5
    Are you just screwing with me? That's gotta be it. Ok, you got me, and you got me good. Ha ha. You can stop with the dense act now. Very funny.

    -Maus



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    Land, Police, and Ben Franklin
    Authored by: TJefferson on Thursday, November 01 2007 @ 08:02 PM GMT+5
    Any property opened to the public (as required by the FERC license of the Harriman dam owner as well as by Vermont Land trust) is considered public- just like a privately owned shopping mall. Furthermore, in Vermont, any open land that is not specifically and legally posted, is considered public.

    Actually, considering that the Wilmington police tied up 3-4 members of it's force for a considerable number of hours to perform a sting operation, arresting tourists who had no reasonable way of knowing that an ordinance was even in place, I'd say for sure that they were overstepping their bounds- and wasting a lot of tax dollars for no reason and answering no complaint.

    As I recall, the Wilmington issue cost the town the required public hearing of a new law, 2 petitions and special town to overturn the Selectboard's decision, a law suit, a LOT of time and distraction from other more important issues, many hours of police overtime for enforcment- all to come full cycle back to the former status quo which allows people who don't bother anyone to sun in the buff.

    Has anyone mentioned "fiscal responsibility" to the Brattleboro selectboard? Dedication to more pressing issues?

    Has anyone mentioned what makes Brattleboro different than any other town in Vermont? It's the attention that the Selectboard gave to the matter and to the anti-nudity crusaders. The same were behind the distractive Wilmington matter. What few know is that the same group tried the same in Whitingham and it never made headlines, cost the town a penny, and never brought nudists to town, all because the Whitingham selectboard refused to give this group any attention at all and made it clear that they were not about to waste time or money on a costly new law. I believe that meeting ended by a fine selectman quoting my friend, Ben Franklin (who enjoyed his daily nude air bath). [b]"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."[/b]
    End of story, as it so often is when elected officials put principles first.

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    Whenever the people are well informed, They can be trusted with their own government.
    Whitingham board members do it with naked aplomb
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Thursday, November 01 2007 @ 08:59 PM GMT+5
    Yes, the Whitingham board made a firm decision at their meeting - made no bones about the fact that they weren't interested in entertaining any talk about a "nudity ordinance." They sent the whole group, which did include some Whitingham residents along with the nut from Vernon and another nut from Searsburg, packing.
    It was something of a turning point in local politics, actually. Several local members of the group that sought the ordinance in Whitingham had previously become increasingly outspoken in pressing their right wing agenda. When they walked out of that meeting defeated, perhaps having expected a sympathetic audience with the conservative selecboard, it ended their reign of righteousness.

    -Maus

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    The Second Horseman: Less than a year and a half left in office.
    Shear the Sheeple!
    Land, Police, and Ben Franklin
    Authored by: mr.mike on Friday, November 02 2007 @ 08:59 PM GMT+5
    And how does our good friend TJefferson feel about guns in the downtown arena? I would hope the same.

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    Vermont's rainy day fund: A profit made off of the backs of it's citizens
    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance
    Authored by: Truman on Tuesday, August 22 2006 @ 03:53 PM GMT+5
    Any ordinance would have to be drafted, then published, then have public meetings held, then eventually voted on at a regular, warned select board meeting, right?

    So show up, call, write, whatever you want and tell them all you don't want an ordinance like this passed, if you're so-inclined. I doubt if they'll pass such an ordinance if it's clear the majority of the voters are against it.

    I for one don't have a problem with the public nudity and figure it will pretty much disappear with the warm weather anyway....my only negative feeling about it is that I'd rather not be the next one to sit down at a place where an unknown nudist has just been sitting. Call me old-fashioned, but some parts should just have some sort of sanitary barrier between them and the sitting public.
    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance
    Authored by: a nani mouse on Friday, August 25 2006 @ 09:54 AM GMT+5
    It's standard procedure in nudist communities to carry a towel (or some equivalent; I usually carry a sarong) to sit on.
    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance
    Authored by: symtmaticsimian on Tuesday, August 22 2006 @ 04:04 PM GMT+5
    People should not be allowed to be naked in private either. Nudity is sinful and should not be condoned.

    Permits, allowing limited nudity for showers or baths, could be issued, but only to trustworthy citizens.
    United We Stand!
    Authored by: TravelNaturally on Friday, August 25 2006 @ 10:06 AM GMT+5
    Gentlemen, My name is Brian Ballone and I am the Associate Editor of Travel Naturally magazine. We are a family nude recreation and travel magazine published out of New Jersey. My associates and I have been monitoring your local youth nudists story with delight. Now before Malik gets bent on our enjoyment, I must implore you both, now adding Maus, to come together and form an alliance to fight for nudity on a common ground. While you both have been debating the current laws, the Selectboard has been preparing to discuss what has happened. Come together and work on common ground to protect the freedom of nonsexual nudity. You should encourage your friends, family and the people of Brattleboro to write to the Selectboard in favor of nonsexual public nudity. The address is: Selectboard, c/o Municipal Center, 230 Main Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 I would be willing to offer my support in any way I can - that includes coming to Brattleboro to write a magazine article for you. If any of those who participated in the nude sit-in would contact me - I would love to interview them. For now - I wish you all good luck. I am writing a letter on behalf of nonsexual public nudity for the people of Brattleboro. As for the outcry of Ms. Theresa Toney, please, stop using "the children" as a means to promote your issues. Children are natural nudists who adapt to anything. They only learn about prejudice from the adults who force it upon them! brian@internaturally.com
    www.internaturally.com
    United We Stand!// Segregation promotes Harmony
    Authored by: Malik on Saturday, August 26 2006 @ 12:54 PM GMT+5
    I hear you Brian, it would be nice if America was open to nudity like parts of Europe are. But even there you have segregation, where a park in Munich or a beach in France are OK for being nude but you still can't do it in most public areas.

    I certainly support nudism, but no, I don't believe in pushing others like the lady who wants to sheild her children from seeing it to have to put up with it. If she lived in Munich she could simply avoid certain park areas and not have a problem with nudists being seen by her family. At the swimming areas around here there is usually an unwritten rule of segregation in effect. People who wear suits and cutoffs go to the first swimming hole at most of these places, and nudists usually go farther down along the shore or upstream at the next hole. This prevents problems like what has happened at the Harmony parking lot. This line of reasoning goes along with the fact that I'm also a dog lover, but I don't want people having their dogs crap in my yard or all over the public parks. There's a time and place for just almost everything. I support free speech but if you talk in the movie theatre while I'm trying to hear it then I'll complain. If you yell 'Fire!" there then you break the law.

    You say "Come together and work on common ground to protect the freedom of nonsexual nudity"
    -Ironically, the area they hang out is behind the old "Common Ground" restaurant and well known hippie/granola/Rainbow folks hangout. There is no real common ground between nudists and non-nudists. We have the right to be nude at secluded areas like the swimming holes, they have a right not to have to see it in town. The common ground if there is one, is that we all have to acknowlege the rights of others while not pushing things on others. Except for the problem at the Ledges a few years ago which has blown over now (as long as the nudists stay in the general Ledges area), there has been harmony in Vermont for nudists. My main point is that these kids in harmony lot are not real 'nudists' but anarchist trouble makers and real (responsible) nudists who go to the secluded spots may end up suffering from what the selectboard may do.

    Reuters news service story on it-
    http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2006-08-25T141009Z_01_N24453414_RTRUKOC_0_US-VERMONT-NUDE.xml
    Thanks A Lot! Now The Town's Likely To Pass An Anti-Nudity Ordinance
    Authored by: outlaw_bandit on Saturday, August 26 2006 @ 08:26 AM GMT+5
    Consider yourselves fortunate for being able to walk around in public naked. If we tried that here in the southern states w'ed have a bunch of angry farmers and state troopers shooting shot guns at us. I love being naked but as far as being naked here in the bible belt, well as history has noted, the south is always the last to change their backward ways. So if nudity does become legal soon, I don't think it will in the south..so consider yourselves very fortunate.
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