Welcome back to iBrattleboro.com Monday, December 18 2017 @ 03:12 AM GMT+4  
Home |  Directory |  Contact | 
Haight Brattleboro    
Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 02:16 PM GMT+4
Contributed by: RLElkins

OpinionFreedom is the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action. License is the disregard for standards of personal conduct.

Unfortunately for business owners, Brattleboro is becoming a community that no longer knows the difference between freedom and license – and public nudity is only a small part of the problem.

Imagine for a moment you are eating dinner in a small local Chinese restaurant and two women walk in with three children in tow and a baby in a back carrier. They select an empty table amongst the diners and one of the women announces in a loud voice “we apologize for what we are about to do!”

She then clears off the table, takes the baby out of her friends back carrier, sets the baby onto the table, removes the infants very stinky diaper, drops it onto the floor, and then proceeds to clean the baby with the restaurant napkins.

Immediately walking out, the decision is made to never eat in a Brattleboro restaurant ever again. Well, guess what? We are not alone as evidenced last Thursday evening at the Longhorn Restaurant in the Monadnock Shopping Center where fourteen of the thirty- one patrons were from Brattleboro.

And what was gleaned from the subsequent conversations? Those Brattleboro residents who have the disposable income to spend are now intentionally NOT spending it in Brattleboro. Or, as one very blunt speaking Brattleboro resident stated;

“It is such a pleasure to enjoy a meal in Keene and not be surrounded by filthy nose ring wearing adults who feel compelled to display their genitalia in public. After dinner we head over to the Price Chopper next door and then to Target and load up for the week. Brattleboro has become a pathetic joke whose quality of life is being determined by a small group of losers who do not have a pot to urinate in or own the window to throw it out of.”

And that, dear residents, is the reason why the new one percent meals tax in Brattleboro will not generate the $250,000 in revenue that the current Selectboard can hardly wait to spend.

Brattleboro Reformer: “On Sunday, May 6, reports came into the police department of a naked older man in the Staples plaza on Putney Road. One witness described the situation in an e-mail to the Reformer.”

"I drove into the Staples shopping center parking lot today with my seventh-grade son, and we saw a naked man in the parking lot, taking pictures of himself. He then wandered around the parking lot, naked and entered the Peebles and the Dollar Store in the shopping center (the Dollar Store told him to leave). He drove off in his car with Connecticut license plates."

It is up to the town to dictate what those decency standards are in Brattleboro. That will not happen. One of newly elected Selectboard members recently stated at a meeting: “People can do whatever they like.” Translation: Brattleboro has no decency standards which is why the town is fast becoming the deviant capital of Vermont.

Personally, I hope the Selectboard does not enact an ordinance banning nudity for two reasons. First, I enjoy eating and shopping in Keene without being confronted by exhibitionists expressing their “rights”.

Secondly, I sincerely hope that during this year’s 4th of July parade down Main Street a group of male nudists will interject themselves into the procession and surround the car carrying Audrey Garfield and her family. I would love to hear Mrs. Garfield’s explanation to her young children why public nudity is really, really good for Town of Brattleboro.

Note: If the police arrest the nudists then the nudies will hire the Vermont ACLU to bring a legal action against Brattleboro claiming their precious rights were violated and as a result they suffered extreme emotional distress. The current Selectboard will then meet in executive session whereupon a huge financial settlement will be given to the nudies that will be added into next years operating budget as miscellaneous non negotiated fixed expenses.

Don’t worry, however, the settlement will only add one penny to the tax rate.

Freedom of expression has its price. Keene is the financial beneficiary and very soon Hinsdale when the Wal-Mart Super Center is constructed.

Way to go Brattleboro!

 

What's Related

Story Options
  • Printable Story Format

  • Haight Brattleboro | 66 comments | Create New Account
    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    A new reason to support nudity
    Authored by: ZAM on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 03:34 PM GMT+4
    ...Hey, it seems to send the bigots away. Go nudity!

    To the folks who seem to share this mindset, I feel no sadness that you go elsewhere. Rather, I feel amused that we are evidently "surrounded" by filthy nose ring wearing genital waving folks after a few isolated incidents.

    That's some class A drama Queening.

    ---
    Hate the Intellectual Dishonesty, Love the Intellectually Dishonest--ZAM 15:12
    "Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad
    A new reason to support nudity
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 04:22 PM GMT+4
    It's fun to hear conservatives beg for more government regulation and snidely refer to people's rights as "their precious rights." It confirms what we already suspect.

    -Maus



    ---
    The Walter Mellon Foundation's global art project. Art Happens. www.waltermellonfoundation.org
    Whose Democracy is this anyhow?
    Authored by: davidvdunn on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 04:38 PM GMT+4
    We seem to have become a group of extremists in Brattleboro where points of view are pulled so far to one side or the other that we have no middle ground. On the School Board I sometimes see it from the public or impassioned students. Our job is to balance the issue and do what is best for the school – administrators, teachers and students alike.

    What disturbs me is that we seem to have lost our sense of democracy. People with views or opinions don’t seek collaboration they demand concession. I read these statements and am left asking the question, whose democracy is it? Indulging in public nudity may have a place but it is not on Main Street. Dining out in Keene is spiteful and cuts off your nose to spite your face. Our new found ideology of steamrolling opponents and muckraking opposing views smacks of an absolute power mentality that is as oppressive as any dictatorship.

    As you can see, I think both parties are wrong. No one should be allowed to thrust their version of justice down my throat because that really isn’t democracy is it?

    Can’t we have a common ground balanced solution that recognizes that some people, especially tourist’s who help support our town and its culture, may be offended by public nudity, while preserving the rights of those who want flaunt their bodies.

    It seems to me that between the anti-VY, the impeach Bush, the do whatever you want whenever or wherever you want crowds, Brattleboro is becoming more the butt of jokes than the joke of butts.
    2020
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 05:20 PM GMT+4
    You might be interested in learning more about the Brattleboro 2020
    work spearheaded by BDCC.

    The first phase involves getting a grant from the Thompson Trust to
    have two community training sessions in "consent building". This came
    from members of the pre-steering group who had feelings very similar
    to what David mentions above.

    The training is known as the Bleiker method if anyone wants to look
    into it further. If you'd like to be a part of it, now's a good time to
    indicate interest, too.

    http://www.ipmp-bleiker.com/

    Another part of the 2020plan is to come up with some data that we all
    can presumably agree upon, in hopes that our arguments can rise to a
    more productive level - what to do about the data rather than whether
    it is correct. One goal would be to keep this datat current and
    updated, and simplified into a "dashboard" for easy community
    reference. We'd all see at a glance how healthy, wealthy, and happy
    we are overall, and could plan accordingly.

    These are certainly steep, ambitious goals, but if people want it to
    happen, it can. I've been a part of the pre-steering committee that's
    been discussing this. At times I can see how this would be a great
    thing - other times I still have my doubts. It will depend on who gets
    involved, but I think it is a truly interesting approach to economic
    development - starting with democracy and information issues.
    Whose Democracy is this anyhow?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 05:58 PM GMT+4
    Well, it may be your perception that Brattleboro is becoming a joke. But for every joke I've heard, I've probably heard a half dozen other people express their awe that we are lucky enough to live in a place where people are principled enough to stand up for what they believe in, and smart enough not to sacrifice their freedom because two or three kooks decide to peel their clothes off on Main Street.

    -Maus

    ---
    The Walter Mellon Foundation's global art project. Art Happens. www.waltermellonfoundation.org
    Whose Democracy is this anyhow?
    Authored by: ZAM on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 06:39 PM GMT+4
    It's funny, because the "we're a joke" comment struck me as fairly polar from someone who wqas preaching for compromise.

    Honestly, I'm not getting that vibe except from extremists.

    ---
    Hate the Intellectual Dishonesty, Love the Intellectually Dishonest--ZAM 15:12
    "Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad
    Whose Democracy is this anyhow?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 08:10 PM GMT+4
    I just don't get the big fuss. I think it's weird that anyone would want to stroll around town naked, I think it's weird that people find it so titilating, and I find it weird that people think enacting some law against being naked is an appropriate response.
    I think I may have spent too many of my formative adult years overseas; there are some aspects of American culture I truly don't understand.

    -Maus



    ---
    The Walter Mellon Foundation's global art project. Art Happens. www.waltermellonfoundation.org
    Whose Democracy is this anyhow?
    Authored by: ZAM on Thursday, May 24 2007 @ 01:22 AM GMT+4
    Maus,

    I'm with you, though I spent no time in Europe.

    Maybe I'm just wired differently.

    I honestly do not see the appeal of walking around naked. I don't find it offensive, but it's not something I see a reason to do.

    On the other hand, this reaction, the people who are outraged or offended, I don't get them, either. It seems unfathomable.

    Even moreso, do I now get to call for censorship of things that offend me? Isn't it possible to just live and let live?

    ---
    Hate the Intellectual Dishonesty, Love the Intellectually Dishonest--ZAM 15:12
    "Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad
    Whose Democracy? OURS!
    Authored by: Tenacious on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 07:49 PM GMT+4
    So people who believe in keeping the Constitution as our supreme law and ending needless carnage are as kooky and fringe as a couple of people dancing naked in the streets?

    I think it is important to consider the evidence and the macro view separate from the more colorful and eccentric personalities who may advocate for closing VY or holding a rogue regime accountable for their crime spree.

    Dunn seems to have missed a few things in his call for moderation. The rule of law and the integrity of the founding document that enumerates our rights: these seem like topics that those who claim to occupy the political center might be slightly interested in.

    Unbelievable!
    A new reason to support nudity
    Authored by: ZAM on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 04:54 PM GMT+4
    I love it. It's like, "how dare you support the Constitution and the concept of freedom?"

    Freedom does have a cost, and it's generally the cost of defending it against opression. In the case of speech, also, censorship.


    I'm also loving the "I'd like to see Audrey Garfield explain this to her kids!"

    Well maybe Audrey's an...What's that word? Adult. Maybe she's a grown up, and old enough to actually handle a parenting issue in a mature fashion. I won't presume to speak for her or know how she runs things, but I'd imagine that she is more than capable.

    I also don't see why she should defend it as a good thing, for not simply taking a very old, very closed minded approach and condemning them.

    I'm assuming most of us are adults here, and can actually talk about tough issues like nudity, sex, sexuality, war, etc. in an adult fashion.

    And honestly, I think things'd be so much better if more people laughed.

    I saw the latest Chick Tract, today, and had to share it with people. Instead of laughing at "Believing in the Easter Bunny makes you a terrorist!" message within, many people instead got angry. And shouted (Or, in the case of internet correspondents, used caps, bold, and !!!!!! punctuation).

    Lay back. Laugh at things. Smile when you see something silly.

    ---
    Hate the Intellectual Dishonesty, Love the Intellectually Dishonest--ZAM 15:12
    "Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad
    A new reason to support nudity
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 05:23 PM GMT+4
    Amen to that! Now we have the Elkins Manifesto on Blue Brattleboro and Red Keene. Move there, for godssakes, if it's so perfect! Wanna be in a mall world? Consider New Jersey. Oh, not so fast, there are a lot of people of color there, and they had a gay governor... Guess it's not the bastion of fascism we want. Let's just make Keene into New Jersey and hope the people WE don't like move there! Good riddance! I'll be here in Bratt, spending my money, enjoying the scenery, the freedoms and some good hearty laughs.
    Annual Contest
    Authored by: cbridge on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 12:38 AM GMT+4
    First prize: a week in Keene

    Second prize: 2 weeks in Keene
    A new reason to support nudity
    Authored by: SirCoßn on Saturday, May 26 2007 @ 01:06 AM GMT+4
    At first reading this topic I thought Wow did this actually happen? Then I remembered this is that God-forsaken european- like ghetto $h!thole we call Brattleboro yeah I definitely can see that happening. No thanks I'll eat in Bellows Falls instead.

    ---
    Screw Tibet!!!
    Free Vermont from Shumlinism
    A new reason to support nudity
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Thursday, May 24 2007 @ 06:11 PM GMT+4
    Hey! I love Chick Tracts, too. It's such classic propaganda - real old-fashioned lowbrow kind of stuff. It's the psychological equivilent of those old campy sci-fi novels.
    Not only will the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus turn you into a mass murderer, you'll burn in Hell for eating Halloween candy, Jesus will catch criminals for you if you're a believer, playing dungeons and dragons leads to Devil worship and suicide, the Holocaust was caused by Catholics, and, by the way, so is communism.
    Oh, and don't worry about wars. When it's time for the world to end, Jesus is going to take care of it.

    -Maus

    ---
    The Walter Mellon Foundation's global art project. Art Happens. www.waltermellonfoundation.org
    A new reason to support nudity
    Authored by: ZAM on Thursday, May 24 2007 @ 08:23 PM GMT+4
    Oh God yes. That's what makes them so funny. They're so over the top, I'd imagine Jack Chick would wear an opera cape and twirl his mustache.

    It also just plain amuses me to watch religions cope with one another. Not even religions. Sects. On top of everyone hating the Catholics, they all seem to react to one another in such a high school cat-ish sense.

    "Oh...My...GOD. Did you see how the Lutherans were praying? That is SO Old Testament!"

    Yeah, I know there aren't any Valley Girls in Vermont, but bear with me.

    The D&D tract was rather funny to me. As a gamer, I knew that his tract was not true the minute I saw his portrayal of a concerned mother. Not only did she know her child was depressed, she knew where she was, and what caused her depression.

    Doesn't he know we're all loners from broken homes?

    ---
    Hate the Intellectual Dishonesty, Love the Intellectually Dishonest--ZAM 15:12
    "Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad
    Nudity
    Authored by: Mark on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 10:44 PM GMT+4
    I really do not like seeing naked people stumble around downtown. And yes, it would be a pain to have to explain it to my little kid but I'm sure I could manage. I could manage, mostly, because I am really looking forward to explaining our constitution to them when they are a little older. And for better or worse, the two go hand in hand.

    Personally, I think it's misplaced expression. When I was 20 I did quite a few things to impress my friends and annoy adults that perhaps were not very smart in retrospect. I don't think they're really expressing much except their own desire to be in the news, create a stir, and have a good time.

    That said, I think it's dumb, moronic behavior. Thankfully, I have a right to say that (although since it is technically insulting I don't know if the Ibrat managers will publish it). But you know, the same rights that allow me to go where I want, do what I want, say what I want, pray where I want, and visit with who I want also allow people to be naked on Main Street.

    So, when my kid grows up, if the worst price she has to pay to be able to express her views, rail against a corrupt presidency, gather with her friends, worship any god that exists or even a new one that she creates, keep her affairs private, and control her own body is to occasionally see a naked moron in pubic, then I think she'll be okay.

    However, I need to make one final point. I find a distinct difference between simple public nudity and publicly manipulating one's genitals. The former is foolish. The latter is, and should be, criminal. I don't care if you manipulate them with your hands, a bottle, or a T-shirt. Should it be a felony? - I'll leave that for another string. That is a law/policy decision for the people to make through their representatives.
    Nudity
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 07:46 PM GMT+4
    You're a reasonable man, Mark. You always state things in a way that represents both the law and your personal views separately.

    As for nudity, I feel, "who cares", as you do. As for "manipulating genitals" there's a wide range there. From the stupidity of the young man's acts on the videotape, to open masturbation, is a wide range. That's why we have interpretation of the law, at least today. I can never accept that his actions are of a felonious grade; people around here have killed people and pled to less, walk around free and are not required to register as a "murderous offender" for ten years beyond serving their token jail term.

    "However", as my brother just noted, "stupidity will get you in trouble". I just hope that one silly, stupid act that happened to be caught on tape and broadcasted worldwide by an unnamed spy, doesn't ruin a young man's life.
    Not enough teenagers today
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, May 23 2007 @ 06:28 PM GMT+4
    The conditions at the Haight, in San Francisco, which got so
    overcrowded with kids (and a major health and sanitation risk for the
    city) could never be repeated today, because there aren't the
    demographics for it. Simply put, there aren't enough teenagers or
    "youth" to form a "youth culture" in today's American society.
    Instead, we are becoming the Geritol culture, populated by a the
    same people who were the young, "Pepsi generation" of forty years
    ago, but they are older and threatening our retirement system. The
    truly scary thing is, these boomers didn't learn how to save money or
    fight for a strong middle class as their older GI and Depression
    generation cohorts did. Of course, this is only a demographic
    generalization, but the numbers, as insurance agencies like to say
    when looking in aggregate, don't lie.

    In 1967, so many hippie wannabees flocked to the city that the
    original inhabitants (beatnicks, hippies, working class joes and city
    authorities) all pretty much asked the kids to stay home and "not
    come here." The filth and uncoordinated lack of planning in San
    Francisco to deal with the overrun of kids was truly a huge mess. Let's
    hope Brattleboro doesn't become some kind of mecca for others. The
    locals won't like it, if San Francisco could be held up as an example.

    Haight Everything
    Authored by: xteeth on Thursday, May 24 2007 @ 10:08 AM GMT+4
    Let's all be glum,
    And spew that bile.
    There'll be no fun,
    For quite a while.

    There is to be a meeting of the Puritanical Troglodyte complainers in the skunk cabbage patch at the dark of the moon. Bring your own cilice.


    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: tomaidh on Thursday, May 24 2007 @ 02:47 PM GMT+4
    I don't think it's the sales tax. 1% of $50.00 is 50 Cents. No one's going to drive to Keene for 50 cents worth of gas
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: ZAM on Thursday, May 24 2007 @ 02:50 PM GMT+4
    I don't know about that, Tom. I've seen people who will drive around town looking for the cheapest gas prices.

    While it's not exactly the same, people will waste gas (and thus, gas money) to save money on gas. Why not waste gas money to save the taxes? Doesn't seem like a bright idea, but it does seem the logical extension of an established theme.

    ---
    Hate the Intellectual Dishonesty, Love the Intellectually Dishonest--ZAM 15:12
    "Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad
    Saving Or Self Delusion
    Authored by: Floyd on Thursday, May 24 2007 @ 03:24 PM GMT+4

    Yeah, my grandparents used to go to 3 different grocery stores to save 10 cents on a loaf of generic white bread here or a can of coffee there. It makes no sense in dollars or sense, but psychologically it seems rewarding to certain goals and habits. I guess I have adopted or adapted that mentality in my attempts at avoiding red lights and stops signs even if it makes the trip longer.
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: spoon on Thursday, May 24 2007 @ 09:32 PM GMT+4
    Haight Brattleboro! OK. San Francisco has for the last century and to this day ranked as one of the great cities of the world. BECAUSE it is so full of life and all it's eccentricities.

    ---
    spoon agave
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: ZAM on Thursday, May 24 2007 @ 09:37 PM GMT+4
    Look at New York City. While it doesn't have the rep of SF, it's still amazingly diverse. Amd people are just leaving in droves....

    ---
    Hate the Intellectual Dishonesty, Love the Intellectually Dishonest--ZAM 15:12
    "Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad
    North Beach was better than the Haight
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Thursday, May 24 2007 @ 09:44 PM GMT+4
    Spoon,

    Were you IN San Francisco in 1967? I have many friends who were,
    since our family lived in Southern CA in the early sixties. It was a lure
    for teenagers in the summer of '67. It was truly a big MESS. The
    reason why communes came about in part was that the hippies got
    disgusted with the city, and went "up country". Vermont was a shadow
    of this trend to some degree. Anyway, much as I love the city of San
    Fran, the summer of 1967 was not a good time for the city. It was
    very stressful. I much prefer the city today. Brattleboro as Haight
    won't happen, but if it did, it would be a human resource challenge
    the likes of which the poor town gov't wouldn't be able to cope with.
    North Beach, where Kerouac was, was better anyway, with better
    bookstores, better clubs and bars, and a better, mellower scene. The
    Haight became a carnival of hordes, and drove George Harrison
    running for his life when he tried to visit.
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: cbridge on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 12:54 AM GMT+4
    Some idiot with more gas money than brains drove up to Brattleboro to
    photograph himself nude? Now how could that have happened? Could it
    be the result of the overblown fuss about a few silly children? Would we
    be seeing the nude follies again this year if it had gotten no attention last
    year? Instead of photographing them, writing indignant letters, &
    complaining to the town mas and pas, why not - if you can't ignore them -
    just laugh, chuckle, chortle, snicker, & guffaw until sheer embarassment
    drives them back into their skivies?

    And anyone too stupid to use the bathroom for diaper changing is going
    to be that stupid anywhere.
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 11:00 AM GMT+4
    Sounds to me like none of the posters here were ever young, but if they were, they certainly have forgotten what it was like. I don't remember filthy as a particularly important part of my thought about living in the "slums" in Boston. (Cambridge and then Roxbury) My hair was long enough to tuck in my belt but I did wash it. Cleanliness is the kind of thing that was of concern to rich white people meeting in committee bemoaning the declining real estate values and the end of the WASP culture. My parents, for instance. Well, it seems that the moaning goes on but now it is the rest of us now and RKElkins, of course. I spent a lot of time cleaning up the neighborhoods in which I lived. Look at all the "filth" along the road in New Hampshire these days. I didn't mind a few burned out cars and buildings. They didn't seem "filthy" to me. That's what poor neighborhoods were like. Haight included, I bet.
    And what's this malarkey about not enough teenagers to have a counterculture? There's not enough social concern or too much disdain but in terms of bodies there are plenty. I think the young have had the fire stolen and don't want to be some sort of pale copy of the '60's. And then there is the expense. My first apartment cost $80 a month in 1967. . No amount of pan handling is going to get you the $1000 a month a city apartment costs now. More fiddling and less burning. It is rather a surprize that young people aren't forming death squads as baby boomers are destroying their future with our profligacy. We're going to be dead when it gets really unpleasant.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 12:11 PM GMT+4
    I remember streaking in the seventies. I did it. : )

    Have you ever lived in Calcutta? I think what people like (whatever
    their skin color or culture is) is plumbing that functions, a bit of free
    space, access to fresh water and clean food, and washable clothing ---
    all things that the Haight began to lack, as it got overcrowded and as
    sanitation went out the window, because people slept on sidewalks
    and in parks for weeks, not just a day or two (which I have done for a
    day or two and that's not a problem). Add to this the LSD that the
    CIA duped on the youth of this country (they introduced it), and you
    had a really messed up scene, "man". What the locals tell me is that
    1965/66 was much better, before all the Valleys and then others
    started flooding in. It's like having a great surf spot ruined by too
    many boards in the water. Dig?
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: NorahCook on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 07:21 PM GMT+4
    So, someone finally confesses to once being young. We got a group of 35 and went skinnydipping in a beautiful public spot, to make a point... we weren't sure what... but it was about freedom, about throwing off the constrictions of a society that has ridiculous notions about how to behave, about the harmlessness and beauty and simplicity of the naked human body. You can't carry a concealed weapon when you're naked, can't intimidate anyone with your expensive suit, can't lend anyone a pen or a dollar, either :-)

    And I'm all for any statements against the current status of our society. It is obscene that the average American household is $85,000 in debt (while the average Japanese household has savings of over $100,000.) It is obscene to be sending 35,000 more troops to wage Bush's war in Iraq (Oh, that's 35,000 on top of the 30,000 deployed in the past couple of months). It is obscene that there is so great a gulf between the rich and poor in the "greatest" nation on earth--the kind of gulf that used to exist only in Latin American countries (and we were horrified when we heard that 10% of the population owned 90% of the wealth).


    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 07:28 PM GMT+4
    Yea Nora, please read my response below. I suspect that Annikee has some thoughts to add here as well. Where did all the old fuddyduddies come from? Go listen to a Pursuit of Happiness album or Mothers of Invention and climb out of that rut.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 08:28 PM GMT+4
    H&ll Yes. I remember being young and free and going home from CBGB's on the subway with no shirt. What the freak is the big deal? Have we become a nation of Puritannical fear ridden idiots? What's next? Birkas? For godssakes, lighten up. Life is short; youth is shorter. Have fun before life drags you to old age and conservative views- and that shouldn't happen til you're over 120. Then you have a right to be a curmudgeon and criticize everyone, in MHO.
    Haute Brattleboro
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 08:53 PM GMT+4
    Now here is my regret. Imagine that I hadn't done all the shit for brains societal helpful stuff that I imagined but went out to extract from the economic system the maximum possible (think Bill Gates) then I would have the money now to give you a grant. Well, not necessarily you, but some lots of someone. I think that George Soros may have taken this other path. Makes me dizzy.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Haute Brattleboro
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:12 PM GMT+4
    And maybe if I hadn't spent half my time in societal causes, I wouldn't need a grant. If I'd been born a Kennedy, I coulda done all of the above and given grants galore. It's all a turn of the wheel. Does it really matter? We're all going up a chimney some day. I'm laughing more than most, I think. That's all that matters.
    Haute Brattleboro
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 07:25 PM GMT+4
    The CIA duped on young people? Not the stuff that I took. I know where it came from and who made it and believe me your paranoia has overcome your memory or else you weren't there. What does Calcutta have to do with anything? I was neither in Calcutta nor S.F. but the same stuff was said about the "hippies" in Cambridge and Roxbury and JamaicaPlain. Is this some kind of Time magazine reminiscence? Were you there? Living in the park, pooping on your shoes or what. That's what my parents thought I was doing in Roxbury. Actually, I was renovating three decker apartment buildings by day and playing rock and roll at night and on weekends. It makes me tired just to think of the amount of work that was accomplished. My father told me that he was appalled that I had my mother come to visit us in "that slum." My mother said she didn't mind at all. We had a terrific Thanksgiving feast as I remember. You'd have thought we were up to our knees in rotten vegetables or something. That crap that was in the media about the horrible living conditions was just that - crap. The buildings were old and poorly kept up - that's why I could buy them for next to nothing. Were they single family houses on one acre in suburbia with white picket fences? No. Now it is true that I can remember being fascinated when looking at bread mold while hallucinating of course. Maybe that is what you meant. Sorry you missed it. I found it very worthwhile.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Haute Brattleboro
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 08:13 PM GMT+4
    Since you weren't actually *in* San Francisco, I'm going to assume
    that you don't know what you're talking about.

    As for the strain on the locals, that's what they told me. It wasn't just
    the Nixon supporters either, or even the Hubert Humphrey Democrats,
    the ones who "sold out" in '68, who were unhappy with the Haight. It
    was locals who made the scene what it was, in 1965 and '66, who got
    unhappy with all the "trendies" who trekked there in 1967. I talked to
    them, not to the editors in Chicago at TIME, fella.

    Calcutta was a terrible slum, with overpopulation and filth. San Fran
    was starting to become like that. Again, I checked with people who
    were THERE.

    Lysurgic Acid (LSD) was tested in project Artichoke by the CIA, as a
    way to get people under interrogation to break down and testify. You
    can look that one up, too. Paranoid, indeed. Go ahead and look it up;
    I dare ya.
    Haute Brattleboro
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 08:47 PM GMT+4
    But you see, I was there in Roxbury where the same things were said. You say you talked to those people. Where have I heard that before? Bush's people talked to Chalabi. Reagan's people talked to the Contras. Woodstock was crazed psychopaths playing in the mud. Sorry, I like people who have seen the scars or better yet have them.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Haute Brattleboro
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:01 PM GMT+4
    My next door neighbor from Palos Verdes, Alyce, went up to the
    Haight, in June of '67. That's one source. She joined a commune in
    Northern CA, in 1969, and told me that the hippie men made the
    women do all the dishes and most of the cleaning, as if they forgot
    some of the "utopian freedom" that they preached. : )

    I have other friends from San Fran, who were there, so I guess you
    want more names. Funny, I'm still waiting to hear your facts about
    how San Francisco wasn't a health hazard to live in, as far as the
    district where the Haight was concerned was. You keep comparing it to
    Roxbury. Apples and oranges. My mom worked with her church with
    Headstart, in D.C., and saw lots of bad conditions. Those black kids
    didn't get the same nutrition and access to education that whites in
    the suburbs got, and she worked to improve the situation. It wasn't
    just "kids" doing things. That's a media stereotype. CROP was
    involved in fighting hunger in the inner cities, in West VA and Tenn.
    mtns, and my mom was part of that as well. Me thinks thou dost slam
    and ridicule too much, out of what? Defense mechanism? Fear of
    being wrong? Pride? Get over it, whatever it is, that is blocking you
    from seeing the truth. It's hateful and not productive.
    Haute Brattleboro
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:15 PM GMT+4
    Oh no. Preachiness. In whose shoes were you walking. I did what I did. You did what you did. What you describe was the news media theme of the time. Maybe it was yours. I tried to create cheap, clean, apartments. I thought it would be a good thing. It turned out a terrible cock up. Does that mean that the CIA controlled me? Did it mean that my experience was a fantasy? You can rant, name books and sit on some high hill and criticize till you are blue in the face and that won't change one iota. What did you do, other than collect other's experience? That is what I mean by the Time magazine view. If you were there then and didn't pitch in to make things better then you had better concider that things are now worse due to your lack of effort. I want to say often, "What did you do to kill the spirit of the sixties?" It's clearly dead now and there is enough blame to go around and around.


    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: ZAM on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:00 PM GMT+4
    At 26, I'm pretty sure I remember whatit's like to be young...Sorta.

    I come from a generation where if you haven't decided your major by Kindergarten, your life is over. Where high school isn't enough, and odds are even college will yield you a low-paying job. Where merely being a straight A student, a volunteer at the shelter, and the son of God won't necessarily guarantee you a slot in college (And think about the rest of us), and so on.

    So spending so many of my formulative years worrying about so much, I'm not sure I was ever particularly young, but there you have it. The generational gap.

    ---
    Hate the Intellectual Dishonesty, Love the Intellectually Dishonest--ZAM 15:12
    "Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: annikee on Saturday, May 26 2007 @ 01:41 AM GMT+4
    Except for the kindergarten part, it was the same story for my generation. In the bathroom stalls above the toilet paper, the week before graduation, someone went around writing, "Bachelor's Degrees, take one".
    Haight Brattleboro
    Authored by: ZAM on Saturday, May 26 2007 @ 01:47 AM GMT+4
    What could make us happier than being such fools?
    Guns in the pockets of boys still in high school
    Knowing we won't given them a fighting chance
    So they take what they can

    ~~Jen Trynin, "Happier."

    ---
    Hate the Intellectual Dishonesty, Love the Intellectually Dishonest--ZAM 15:12
    "Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad
    LSD Must Read
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 08:31 PM GMT+4
    Books

    Acid Dreams:
    The Complete Social History of LSD:
    The CIA, the Sixties, and Beyond

    An accurate, well researched book. As the title implies, it covers such
    things as the origin of LSD and the CIA funded research for use as a
    mind control tool. But more importantly it explains how LSD and other
    drugs have affected society.

    Not a boring text book, this is probably the best book available on the
    social history of LSD from its synthesis in the 1940's to the present
    day. Students looking for information about LSD should borrow this
    book at a local library.

    I would go so far as to argue that cocaine has been shipped into this
    country illegally by CIA (with DEA turning a blind eye) to fund Iran/
    Contra, and other activities since. The idea is twofold: keep the kids
    stoned and distracted from playing a serious role in public policy,
    whilst getting money off the addicted users at the same time.
    Brilliant? Yes, but not invented by the CIA. It's an old trick, used by
    the British in China, when they introduced opium there, in the
    nineteenth century. Divide and rule.

    The kids from the sixties who thought they were being so cool by
    dropping acid and using drugs were just dupes being used by the
    establishment. I find it comical and tragic. It's one thing to be "free"
    but another to be "used". It takes a certain level of sophistication and
    intelligence to be able to differentiate between the two concepts.
    Poor Try
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 08:57 PM GMT+4
    I don't particularly give a shit what the CIA was trying to do any more than I care what sideliners are now trying to do or make others think about what I was trying to do. You don't control that. I am sure that all kinds of CIA people had all kinds of fantasies about how they control the world and you evidently share them. There were people at soup kitchens doing the work of trying to make the world bettter not writing articles for Rolling Stone about how horrible it all was.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    You're evading the answer
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:07 PM GMT+4
    I can't make you care about facts, just acknowledge them. Your
    attitude is your business.

    The fact is, drugs don't improve the lives of people in the inner city.
    The fact is, CIA did introduce the drug LSD, so your charge that I was
    "paranoid" rings false.

    It sounds like you're more interested in slamming Buddy Love than
    arguing a point, because whenever someone says "I don't give a sh*t"
    it's a dead giveaway that they are closing off rational debate.

    Have a civil debate with me or have a nice day. Don't get all Charles
    Manson on me. That's very uncool.
    You're evading the answer
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:22 PM GMT+4
    Wow. Read your answer. The fact is whatever you think it is. You don't seem to care that facts are relative to the people who were actually there not the interviewers and their fond opinions.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    You're evading the answer
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:59 PM GMT+4
    Alyce wouldn't lie to me. She was there; you were not.

    Sorry, I'll go with her first hand experiences with the Haight.

    I won't discount the written reports from others either, just as I won't
    discount completely what others wrote about other historical epochs
    before either you or I was born.
    If it feels that good bein' used.....
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:04 PM GMT+4
    Wherever it came from, I'm not the only person in my acquaintance who straightened out the horrors of their childhood with a little help from LSD. I'm surprised this comes from Buddy, unless all he had was bad trips. Many people were helped by stepping outside themselves for a few hours. I stopped tripping after the first bad trip, but that came years after starting. It's not for everyone, granted. But for many I knew, it opened minds that were cloistered under the Father Knows Best/Nixon mentality. If what Buddy claims is true, many have the CIA to thank for their relative sanity and free thinking.
    If it feels that good bein' whacked
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:06 PM GMT+4
    Bless you Anikee. I am getting to feel out on a limb. Was no one else there?

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    If it feels that good bein' used.....
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:09 PM GMT+4
    Did you guys try heroin as well?

    How about model airplane glue?

    I'm just asking...
    If it feels that good bein' used.....
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:20 PM GMT+4
    Of course you are not "just askin'." You are judgemental and unknowing. You wish that something in which you didn't take part has given some of the rest some insight that can't be gained by reading books written by the CIA. That's like just asking if you beat your wife. A little self knowledge might go a long way.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    If it feels that good bein' used.....
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:41 PM GMT+4
    Get high all you like. It's not my concern.

    I was making a point however about how drugs can be used to
    manipulate people. It's a valid point. I'm not trying to be puritanical,
    and I have my own experiences that I don't care to divulge, thanks.

    I have no first hand experience in the Late Roman Empire, but I can
    learn about it through science (archaeology) and by reading history
    and some literature that survives from the period. If all we knew
    came from first hand experience, we'd be pretty dumb.

    What you did in the inner city was commendable, but slamming me
    for not having the requisite long hair and appreciation of Traffic, The
    Grateful Dead, and Big Brother & The Holding Co. with Janis Joplin ---
    I was nine when the sixties ended --- is UNcool. For the record, I did
    try different stuff, and had the longest hair in my fourth grade class,
    but I look at that as a fashion trend, not any kind of statement of
    political sentiment, like when I wore a black arm band to school in the
    early spring of 1970, to protest the Vietnam war.

    As for drug use, it doesn't automatically make you any more "hip" to
    have used more drugs than me. There is A LOT more to political
    conciousness than how many halucinogens a person ingested or
    smoked. And no, I was never a NARC either! my older brother would
    have kicked the shit out of me if I had narced.
    If it feels that good bein' used.....
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 10:02 PM GMT+4
    But if you had paid attention to the earlier things, I don't think it (creating cheap apartments) was particularly admirable. That is what makes your statments, as you say, "ring false." I don't care about the length of you hair now or then, the point was that mine was in fact washed. People used to throw cigarette butts at me on my motorcycle at stop lights, would I recommend that? Don't be stupid. I don't give a shit about a lot of things and I would hope that you would give up your shit giving because I think that it is a dead end. Just like my long hair. Don't pontificate about the value of drugs or their source. You know only what you have read and if there is any subject upon which reading does not apply, this is it. It's okay. It killed lots. It has damaged my health in my opinion. But don't do on and on about the CIA and who forced me to do these things. I disagree about almost everything in the "Live Free or Die" state but I do take responsibility for self damage. I see living in Brattleboro as a fashion statement but without this push, I wouldn't say it in public. You are the same person when drunk or drugged or whatever. I don't hold your youth against you. I don't give a shit. That is, as I said a statement of lack of standing. The only kind of "hip" I am thinking about is getting one of mine replaced. Where did the NARC thing come from. Stay on the subject. Perhaps it has something to do with Calcutta.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    If it feels that good bein' used.....
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 10:05 PM GMT+4
    Why would you question me and imply other drug use on me, then say that you won't share yours? That's just nasty, bro. I'm not up for that. There's already enough finger-pointing and defamation going on. All I did was speculate that acid wasn't your avenue. No need to get all hatey. I'm just sharing my experience. I thought that was cool around here.
    Ouch!
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 10:13 PM GMT+4
    You know what?

    You guys both win. That's what I used to say to my older brothers when
    they got all in my face, just to have peace and quiet. It sure beat being
    punched out by older "hippie" brothers who cared about peace in
    Southeast Asia, but when it came to personal relationships, they were a-
    holes, ready to get all pushy and in your face. Life's too short for that,
    so I'm pronouncing both of you the winners. Whatever gets you through
    the night.

    Have fun with your life.
    Ouch? Wow!
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 10:27 PM GMT+4
    That's my point- it's not about winning. You attack me- and I win? No discussion, just, "You're like my big brothers"? What's that? Some kind of a put down? Please. I don't even get a response over the generalized defamation, I'm just lumped into your spat. Nice.
    Crouch
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 11:12 PM GMT+4
    Classic passive agressive. Truth used to be the norm. Your truth, my truth, they may even disagree. Generalization, however, when the implication is that because your truth is somehow truer than my truth, that is a problem. There is no contest that the CIA, Nixon, etc. tried to do a lot of things but to assert that they were the cause of what I did when I have told you that they weren't, that's trouble.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Crotch
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Saturday, May 26 2007 @ 02:34 AM GMT+4
    "Typical passive ag[g]ressive:"

    Let's all be glum,
    And spew that bile.
    There'll be no fun,
    For quite a while.

    Yeah, let's not spill too much bile.
    I mean, we sixties hippies have to set an example.
    Peace, love and understanding.
    Altamont? What's that?

    Trot out those slogans
    Authored by: xteeth on Saturday, May 26 2007 @ 08:28 AM GMT+4
    It's clear that you wouldn't know.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    TO ALL WHO WOULD KNOW
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Saturday, May 26 2007 @ 08:34 AM GMT+4
    Dude, you'd probably give Mel Lyman a friggin' headache:

    Courtesy of The Avatar:
    The Hip Movement is guilt ridden, it represents everything it condems.
    It overflows with prejudice, war, lovelessness, pride, injustice, and
    contempt. It totally lacks compsasion. There is more truth in a cop
    directing traffic than in a hippie preaching love, there is more truth in
    a soldier fighting against Viet Nam than a hippie fighting for freedom,
    there is more truth in President Lyndon Johnson than in all the Learys
    and Ginsbergs and all the rest of the professional lovers in the world
    and I hope you hate me for telling you the truth because there is
    much hate IN you and you might as well use it up on me because at
    least I can fight back. The little narcotics officers, the little politicians,
    the little businessmen are at your mercy oh mighty and powerful
    Hippy Generation and they CAN'T fight back, they're bewildered
    because you don't tell them the truth, they don't know WHAT you
    want because YOU haven't learned how to TALK yet. The mighty
    indignant little hippie has risen up to slay the dragon and there is no
    dragon outside of himself. Once more the blind are leading the blind
    nowhere and leaving chaos and destruction in their wake. I am
    AGAINST everything you stand for. I stand only for truth, however,
    wherever, in whatever form it takes. If there is more truth in a
    Southerner HATING a negro than in a hippie LOVING him then I am
    for the southerner, if there is more truth in Sgt. Barry Sadler HATING
    a Viet Namese than in a hippie hating Barry Sadler then I am for
    Barry Sadler. I am not swayed by great shows of Love and Freedom, I
    see the truth wherever it appears with no rose colored glasses, I
    recognize it IMMEDIATELY and I recognize the LACK of it immediately,
    it has no permanent home, it is not partial, it cannot take sides, no
    one owns it, it cannot be bought or fought for, it is only where it
    needs to be, it reveals itself only to those who have stripped
    themselves of all UNtruth and believe me oh hippie generation you are
    buried in lies and deceit, you don't recognize the truth because there
    is NO TRUTH IN YOU. In your blind misguided way you are
    SEARCHING for it but you have failed to search your OWN HEARTS,
    they're as cold as ice. I read your newspapers, I attend your
    gatherings, I listen to your prophets, I find no truth there. You are no
    different than your fathers and mothers, you are only younger and
    angrier. At least in their own way they love you, you don't love
    ANYBODY. They work for what they believe in, you don't believe in
    anything but your own grand free hippie glory. It's empty, so so
    empty. Someday you will learn that you reap exactly what you sow,
    you are setting yourself up for much suffering, your freedom will end
    in pain, your love colony will end up on the same old heap and some
    poor old tired Johnson or Humphrey or Reagan will have to drag
    himself to the top of it and kill himself trying to scrape together
    enough pieces to call it a country or a nation or a home of the brave
    over your last little wisps of namecalling rising up from somewhere
    deep down in the bottom of the pit. Wise up. This doesn't HAVE to
    happen, what we have today here in America is a result of negligence,
    the negligence of people just like you BEFORE you, the ammassed
    negligence of a selfish race, a negligence that you reflect beautifully,
    a LACK OF SELF DISCIPLINE. Why don't you take yourself in hand
    NOW before someone else has to do it FOR you, why don't you be a
    good person YOURSELF before you demand it of others, why don't you
    expose the murderer in YOURSELF before you expose it in others, why
    don't you look at your OWN deceit, you OWN hate. The poor old
    leaders of this country have ENOUGH on their hands without having to
    fight YOU. Why don't you try and UNDERSTAND why they do what
    they do. They are working for the same things YOU are working for,
    they're not evil villains striving for personal power, they're doing the
    best they can with what they have to DO it with, all humanity is ONE
    unit trying to get itself together, why don't you try and get YOURSELF
    together and THEN take a look at the world, why don't you try and
    UNDERSTAND, do you really know what the word responsibility
    means, you haven't the foggiest, neither have our leaders but they
    are a lot closer to it than you are. WAKE UP, you haven't the remotest
    conception of where it's really at. I'm so weary of fools.
    Mel Lyman
    ©1967, Trust Inc.
    To all who weren't there.
    Authored by: xteeth on Saturday, May 26 2007 @ 11:13 AM GMT+4
    I actually never met him but I lived across from his band of what we all thought were religious wackos for several years on Fort Hill. What a bunch of paranoid psychos. They had a walled community and no one came out or went in from the surrounding neighborhood. They "hid and protected" their women sort of like Muslims. They lived in fear of an attack by the polizei and had only contact with the rest of the world through the Avatar. Mel, supposedly played banjo though I never heard him. The Kweskin Jug Band supposedly stayed there for a while though I think that was before 1968 when I arrived. I saw some construction work that they did when they left their fortress to gain coin of the realm and was impressed. They were charging $5 an hour which we thought was outrageous. He was another example of Jim Jones or David Koresh. I've never liked the type but maybe you and your aunt would have fit right in. Fitting that you should quote him.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    To all who weren't there.
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Saturday, May 26 2007 @ 03:26 PM GMT+4
    Why is my aunt part of this discussion?

    How do you know how I would feel?

    If I'm being "passive aggressive" how would you describe your
    behavior? Aggressive? Defensive? Angry? Forgiving?

    What's your point? It's to say the last word, to "win" right? Or is this a
    mischaracterization?

    It must mean something to you, because you keep reacting to what I
    post. For someone who seems to think of me as being "not there" and
    "unknowing" and "so, so, utterly...(cough with emphasis for contempt
    and drama)...BENEATH it all" you have a funny way of showing it, by
    responding to each of my posts, keeping the dialog going.

    It's almost as if all I have to do to get you to jump through my hoop
    "lowly as I seem to be in your estimation" is to post something, and
    you'll reply. Of course, I could be wrong about all this and could be
    hallucinating it. : )---silly me of course.
    To all who weren't there.
    Authored by: xteeth on Sunday, May 27 2007 @ 03:01 PM GMT+4
    Okay with me I'll add you to Scott. I thought you might have wanted to know. Silly me.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    LSD Must Read
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 09:29 PM GMT+4
    The only thing that is a must read is something that others wish would indoctrinate you to their views. Informative it might be. Filled by facts to which I didn't have access, it might be, but some definitive thing which will prove my experiences were false. Don't you wish?

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Stoners
    Authored by: lancer on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 11:31 PM GMT+4
    I may be too young to remember the sixties, but my experience with the
    stoners was, they were the ones who didn't get very far in school, and I
    see many of them working low wage jobs. The sixties are overrated.
    Stoners
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, May 25 2007 @ 11:47 PM GMT+4
    What claptrap. Sounds like you are part of the X generation (No that doesn't necessarily mean xcellent) There are dunces everywhere. There is superior performance occasionally. Which label do you feel you have earned?

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Stoners and Stereotypes
    Authored by: annikee on Saturday, May 26 2007 @ 12:37 AM GMT+4
    Well, may be true across generations. I've also known some of the biggest "heads" as we called them, become amazingly successful. Financial wizards, computer geeks, musicians, writers, artists, chefs, labor organizers, medical professionals, lawyers, religious leaders, even politicians. I'm hoping to see the next generations' "heads" do as well.