Welcome back to iBrattleboro.com Friday, March 12 2010 @ 08:52 AM GMT+5  
Home |  Submit Story |  Calendar |  Site Stats |  Directory |  Advertising |  Contact |  Help |  Policies |  Local Links |  Polls | 
What's New
STORIES
7 New Stories

COMMENTS last 2 days
  • Your Garbage And ... [+36]
  • Thoughts on Unhas...
  • Harry Reid's Lett...
  • Apartments for Re... [+2]
  • Tribute To T-Bone... [+4]
  • For Sale: Histori... [+18]
  • Friends of Music ... [+2]
  • Solid Waste Commi... [+6]

  • LOCAL LINKS last 2 weeks


    iBrattleboro Market and More
    Brattleboro Demographic and Housing Data
    iBrattleboro BMedia

    iBrattleboro Job Market
    Brattleboro Community Brain Trust
    BrattleBarter
    iBrattleboro Assignment Desk
    Brattleboro Maps
    iBrattleboro RSS Feed
    BrattleRide

    Recent Stories
    Tuesday 09-Mar
  • Tribute To T-Bone on "Carousel' (7)

  • Monday 08-Mar
  • Thoughts on Unhassled Skating (6)
  • Brooks Library First Annual "Say! What Do You Know?" Trivia Contest - Get Your Team Formed Now (0)
  • My Decision on Running for Office (6)
  • My Two Cents: Writing Opinion Editorials (0)
  • Brattleboro Town Meeting Informational Sessions (0)
  • Post Oil Solutions Offers its Annual Cold Frame Workshop (0)
  • Brattleboro Charter Revision Commission Meeting Agenda and Minutes (2)
  • Free Music at Flat St. Tap Room-Thursday (0)

  • Sunday 07-Mar
  • Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas (38)
  • Brattleboro Town Arts Committee Meeting and Minutes (0)
  • Brattleboro Union Station Committee Meeting (0)
  • Economist Chris Martenson Discusses Resource Depletion (0)
  • BCTV Channel 8 & 10 Schedules, Week of 3/08/10 (0)

  • Saturday 06-Mar
  • Sales Tax Free Weekend. (4)

  • Sections
    Home
    Activism (1,157)
    Arts (541)
    Books (244)
    Business (367)
    Creative (368)
    Education (437)
    Entertainment (815)
    Food (328)
    Features (158)
    Health (364)
    History (170)
    Kids (186)
    Home & Garden (207)
    Media (231)
    Music (622)
    Nature (246)
    Obituaries (78)
    Opinion (1,159)
    Pets (177)
    Police (131)
    Politics (1,541)
    Recreation (213)
    Rumors (155)
    Sci-Tech (180)
    Spiritual (193)
    Town News (1,912)
    Town Plan (314)
    Questions & Answers (1,086)
    Other (809)
    iBrattleboro (134)

    Who's Online
    Maus Anon E 
    Guest Visitors: 67

    User Functions
    :

    :


    Lost your password?


    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro    
    Tuesday, August 21 2007 @ 11:51 PM GMT+5
    Contributed by: SK-B

    Town NewsNudity Ordinance Defeated
    Support Withdrawn Over Amendment

    At an emotionally-charge meeting, the Brattleboro Selectboard failed to enact a permanent ban on public nudity. When the 30 day extension of the emergency ordinance, which was passed on August 7th, runs out, nudity -- so long as it is not lewd and lascivious -- will no longer be illegal.


    There were strong opinions expressed from the audience, some of whom overflowed into the Hannah Cosman Room adjacent to the Selectboard room, and strong opinions by board members. Ronald Doyle, of Moretown, showed a Bible and citing Second Timothy, Chapter 3, said that the Bible reads like a news account of our present time. Second Timothy is a Pauline Epistle about the last days. It says (in part) "3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,...." Several audience members and Selectboard Members (Dora Bouboulis and Rich Garant) objected to the idea that public policy should be modeled on a religious text. At one point a number of audience members vocally disapproved of banning religion as the basis of government.

    Citing a European headline, ""Tolerant Town Becomes Intolerant," after the emergency ordinance was passed, Bouboulis said, "this is not the kind of publicity we need."

    Brattleboro resident Michael Gauthier presented the Board with a petition which he said had a total of 927 names, 551 of which were of Brattleboro residents. In a quick post-meeting interview, Dora Boubolis told iBrattleboro that there were actually two petitions worded in a confusing way so that some people may have signed without fully understanding what they were agreeing to, and that there were a large number of duplicate signatures.

    The Ordinance was doomed when an amendment, proposed by Rich Garant, was passed making it apply only to the exposure of genitals, but exempting buttocks and women's breasts. Steve Steidle, saying, "The amendment is ridiculous" challenged Garant to explain exactly what it would look like for someone to be engaging in the exempt behavior. Garant declined the challenge. In the end, Audrey Garfield and Rich Garant voted for the watered-down ordinance, with Dick DeGray, Steve Steidle, and Dora Boubolis voting against (obviously not all for the same reason).

    After the vote Michael Gauthier said that the outcome does not represent the majority of town residents, and asked the town attorney how to get the issue onto a referendum so that the entire town can decide. DeGray got up, and walked out of the meeting, and did not return.

    Other issues discussed: The 50 year plan for development on Putney Road.

    A proposal to permit a sculpture to carve the granite sidewalk on Elliot Street, starting on the night of the next Gallery Walk.

    Recommendation by the Town Attorney that the Town position itself in preparation for what may be an inevitable lawsuit resulting from contradictory state legislation which mandates indirect disclosure of personal finances of property tax payers. Apparently the town risks being sued for violation of privacy if it follows the law, or being sued for not following the law.

    ___________________________
    Apologies for errors, omission, and particular for getting anyone's name wrong. The following is as verbatim as I was able to do. In the inevitable haste, I am sure I made mistakes, so if you need a reliable record, get a copy of the video of the meeting from BCTV. In a highly-charged, sometimes bitter, controversy, my goal is to avoid my own personal biases, and to report as faithfully as possible the best arguments of both sides. If I fell short in either direction, it is not intentional.
    ___________________________

    Minutes accepted with a minor correction.

    Audrey invites feedback for waterfront design by Michael Cannon and Michael Singer.

    msinger@sover.net

    Barbara expresses condolence for death of father in law of Dick DeGray.

    Barbara - Talked about trash and noise in the Harmony Lot causing complaints, particularly this past
    weekend, and asks for people to be conscious that need to deal with it detracts resources from other
    needs of the town.

    Barbara discusses upcoming audits.

    Attorney General will be investigating tazer incident of July 24, as well as use of force policies
    statewide. Barbara and the town attorney have been trying to determine what the scope of the AG
    investigation will be. She wants people to know that the town is not dropping the ball on this, and
    will be giving updates. Police review committee has been discussing use of force policy, and will be
    considering how they can best give input to AG's investigation.

    Rich - committee report, Friends of Fulflex.
    Group is developing criteria for field, and then will be trying to get hard numbers and comparing
    various options.

    Rich - Fair Trade Group has been meeting and working on coordinating things with other groups around
    the state and around the country. There will be a number of upcoming events, including a film
    tomorrow night at Hooker Dunham theater.

    Dora - Formula stores and W Brattleboro Master Plan.


    Citizen's Participation
    Gerry Benjamin - Asked what is happening with the place where the retaining wall fell. It is now
    being used as a dumping ground.

    Steve Barrett, public works responds - We've just completed the survey, and will be looking for stonemasons to give us creative ideas for how to repair the wall, not necessarily restacking it, but possibly making it not as high.

    Barbara - Part of the delay was we have been trying to find out who owns the wall. Still ambiguous,
    but town will be fixing it, and looking for economic ways to fix it.

    Mike Gauthier (I think) - Asks Barbara if complaints at Harmony lot has been during the day or at
    night. He adds that his wife is afraid to go through the Harmony Lot.

    Barb - night.

    Mike - Asks about loitering and curfew.

    Barb - At this point we will be working on issue of noise. My understanding is that, while there is
    a curfew on the books, it has not been enforced. A few months ago some of the merchants worked with
    the teenagers, and it was very successful. People often forget that people live there, and don't
    realize how much noise they are making.

    Dora - Historically noise and yelling have always been a problem in that area. There is a noise
    ordinance, but it is hard to enforce with people who are just walking by and being loud. Merchants
    have complained to her that there is a lot of trash.

    Mike - Are there trash cans there?

    Dora - Yes, but they are overflowing.

    Dick - I've been in that area in the past few days and it looks like a dump. People are using the
    cans to dump trash bags, rather than for their purpose, which is wrappers, cans, litter. It is not
    just teenagers, there are people of all ages contributing to the problem.

    Scott Borofsky - Has lived downtown for 15 years and walks around all the time. He found a used
    syringe in the Harmony Lot. Asks why the police don't get out of their cars more.

    Barbara - Has had a talk with the police chief, and they will be increasing foot and bicycle patrols.

    Jerry B. - Not a fan of spying on people, but suggests cameras in Harmony Lot, just like in the
    Transportation Center.

    Barbara - Hesitant to blame it all on the teenagers. Gives an example of a tire which was dumped,
    which she said was probably done by an adult. We all need to police ourselves and each other. If
    you see someone throw trash on the ground, you should ask them to pick it up. Police patrols will be
    increased, and that is a stop-gap, but we all need to participate.

    George Reed Savory - Does not want to wait months for the Attorney General's report before we investigate use of tazers. Appreciates the posting of the use of force policy, but wants to see posted the current use of tazer policies. She said that there was something about using tazers to protect property. He is concerned with what that could mean, and wants clarification.

    Barbara -- There is no new policy, there is a police chief's directive.

    George - could you post that directive.

    Barb - agrees to.

    Use of Force Committee
    Police Officers:
    John Martin
    Mark Carignan
    Gene Wren
    Mike Fitzgerald - (a master tazer instructor at the academy.
    P.B. Marino

    Terry Martin -
    Dora (ex officio)
    Kate Warner - Trained and experienced in non-violent protests
    Gail Cooper

    So far this committee has met only once. Additional members may still be appointed.


    Spoon Agave - On Sept 26 there are proposed to be 2 significant projects
    The Coolidge Collector
    The Southern Power Loop.

    Intended to double the electrical capacity of line which are considered insufficient, and to
    increase reliability. "This is like taking a 2 lane road which is jammed with cars and replacing it with a 4 lane road, which is soon filled with cars."

    Warns that we are building to a point of unsustainability, and there is strong evidence that we may
    already be past the tipping point. Our country is the only country which has not signed the Kyoto
    Agreement, and here we are creating the infrastructure for further development. Reliability can be achieved by conservation.

    Steve Steidle: Is this a Brattleboro Issue?

    Audrey and Dora say it is.

    Audrey asks Spoon if there is a meeting he would like to invite people to.

    Monday, 6 pm -There will be Planning Commission meeting. It will be the first item on the agenda.
    Velco and CVPS will be first up, making a presentation.

    7 pm BS&L Thurs sept 27 Windham Environmental Coalition having a meeting for anyone interested in
    discussing how we can conserve in Brattleboro. Representatives from the state will be there.

    Bob Sisler - Brings up noise and kids all over the sidewalk. Bar patrons making noise 1 or 2 in the morning, disturbing people in the high rise. Kids not getting out of the way for him travelling on the sidewalk.

    Audrey - We know it is a problem. We are stepping up police presence at that time.
    Audrey - (to the board) Any ideas?

    Barbara - Hit 'em! (laugher)

    Bob F. - You're on television, do you want to be in jail? (laughing)

    Barb - You can't legislate behavior. We have to let people know how we feel.

    Dora - This is a community issue. All over the country the sense of community is disappearing, we still have a bit of it left in Brattleboro. Talk to people who are different than you. Create relationships so that people start to feel some connections and obligations to one another.

    Barb - Do we really want the type of community where the police get called every time someone gets in your way when you are walking down the street? She says that we need to build community.

    Scott B. - Gives a number of examples of obnoxious behavior which he has observed, and says he doesn't understand why the police can't get out of their cars and walk around a bit. Otherwise, if people call the police and they arrive after the incident has occurred, it is too late.

    Barbara - Reminds us that at times there are only 3 police on duty, but we have asked them to step up foot and bicycle patrols.

    Scott - What do you mean "stepping up?" I haven't seen any foot patrols.

    Mike Gauthier - Growing up in this town, it seemed that there was a lot more security in this town. When we had Guthrie and other police walking around town. He noticed that when the police started sitting in cars, the atmosphere changed.

    Audrey thanks everybody for their comments. It is an issue the Board needs to look at, in the meantime police patrols will increase.

    ....

    Water and Sewer Commissioners:
    Public Hearing - Water and Sewer rates, second reading.

    New rates and when they become effective was read by Audrey.

    comments:
    Dick DeGray - Thanks John Leisenring for getting our rates into a more rational basis. Increases
    are painful, but necessary to sustain the costs.

    Audrey - When will people see the changes on their bills?

    John - It will be for the first quarter of this fiscal year, which runs from July 1 through end of
    Sept. It will be on the bill received in December.

    Audience member (Gary ____ ) asks about connection fee.

    Steve Barrett, Public Works - When new house is connected, there is a fee based on the number of bedrooms. Homeowner then pays plumber to install a meter.

    Gary asks how it is fair that in the past the costs were subsidized, but anyone newly on the system will be paying to make up for past subsidy.

    (I don't think they understood his question. John said that it is all being taken into account with
    the new rates.)

    New rates voted on and passed 5-0.
    Public Hearing closed.
    Water and Sewer Commissioners adjourned.

    ....

    Financial Report, John Leisenring -
    Parking Fund is given separately from General Fund.
    (A bunch of numbers rattled off. If interested in the details, check with the Town).

    Audrey - Asked if the annual audit will be done by the same firm as has been doing it before.

    John - Yes.

    Audrey - I thought we were going to put it out to bid.

    John - Right now, when we are making changes, I think it is best to use the firm which is familiar with our system.

    Audrey - You feel confident in them?

    John - Yes. I do feel it is a good idea to go out for bid on a periodic basis, but later, not right
    now when we are in the midst of changes.

    ......

    Public Hearing
    Kevin Maloney, Chair of Planning Commission
    Gary BGodemote, Vice-Chair.
    Presentation of new Putney Road Zoning.

    Gary - We took a look at several comments and questions. One was the possible addition of Auction House as a conditional use under commercial heading. Previously it was not included, now we have decided to include it.

    Building Standards- DRB may grant variance to 60 height limit for particular, uninhabited
    architectural elements, such as roofs, chimneys, vents, air conditioning units, telecommunications
    facilities, elevator shafts, solar collectors, and aesthetic elements so long as they do not have an undue adverse effect on the scenic or natural beauty of the area, aesthetics, historic sites or rare and irreplaceable natural areas.

    An auto Service Station and Repair Garage may not provide parking for tractor trailers. Parking spaces used by tractor trailers that are refueling shall not be considered "parked."
    Plus a couple of other apparently minor changes.

    Audrey - Repair Garage mentioned in regulations, but no definition is given. We either need to take it out, or else add a definition.

    Jim Mullen - Not every use has a definition, when there is no definition we use the definition under
    the Random House Dictionary.

    Audrey - Excuse me Jim, there is a definition (she points out where it is, and suggests moving it up so that it appears in a better location.)

    Some more discussion about fine tuning of language.

    Audrey - Conditional uses - Auction Houses and storage facilities -- are not the highest and best use of land. They do not provide many jobs, and no housing. She suggests that we limit these conditional uses to existing buildings, rather than allow new buildings to build for these purposes.

    Kevin agrees that auction houses are used once a week or once every two weeks, and seems to be agreeing to remove for new buildings.

    Gary - I don't know the economics of it, and it is probably not cost effective to build a new
    auction house, but perhaps we should leave it in because auction houses promote re use of goods.

    Audrey - Storage facilities particularly bother me.

    Gary - Sometimes a storage facility is built, but as the economics make it cost prohibitive, they are converted to other uses. It could be something which happens in the short run, but phased out
    over time as the land got to be too expensive for that use. In the planning process, we are trying to create bridges to the next stage. He sees storage facilities and auction houses as interim uses.

    Audrey - I would hate to see a big, corrugated metal building 20 feet from Putney Road.

    Dick - I would side with Gary because the economics will govern what is done.

    Audrey - If no one would build one for those reasons, then if we don't allow it we are not taking
    anything away from anyone. How about if we make auction houses and storage facilities conditional
    uses, with a bigger setback.

    There does not seem to be any argument with her proposal.

    Audrey - Any comments?

    Dora - I have real concerns about the set backs for the entry to that mixed use area. She suggests
    that the parkings be behind buildings instead of in front of buildings.

    Audrey - Minimum setback is 20 feet, is there a maximum setback?

    Kevin - No.

    Audrey - So there is nothing stopping parking lots from being in front of buildings?

    Dora - You could leave the setback the way it is, but make it so that there is still parking in
    front of the buildings, but most of it is behind the buildings. We want to encourage buildings close
    to the road to create a village atmosphere.

    Dick - A lot of comments I have heard about Cumberland Farms is that it is too close to the road. It
    is almost like we are fighting ourselves with contradictory zoning ordinances... one in West
    Brattleboro, something different on Putney Road.

    Audrey - The first few buildings which go up fitting a new criteria will look out of place, like
    Cumberland Farms.

    Audrey proposes a number of changes in the proposed zoning ordinance. Including design standards,
    use of native plant species for landscaping.

    Audrey - Has there been any thought to reducing the one acre trigger for state stormwater
    regulations kicking in?

    Jim M. - That is a state regulation.

    Audrey - But you can make it more restrictive.

    Jim M. - It is best to deal with that for all commercial property, rather than piecemeal for
    particular zones.

    Bio swales mentioned (without an explanation) and briefly discussed.

    Audrey - concerned about having "shopping centers" as allowed use because that could include large malls in the permitted usages. Suggests subjecting the commercial zone to the large retail ordinance
    to restrict size to 65,000 square feet.

    Dora - I am not finding language in commercial zone restricting parking to behind structures or vegetation.

    Kevin suggests that we find better language in order to achieve the desired effect. In response to a question by Audrey, he does not have specific language to propose, but said, "we've got the message," and will discuss it and deal with it.

    They then discuss the process, and ask Bob Fisher to comment.

    Bob Fisher - It seems that now there are more suggestions than when it was returned to the Planning
    Commission before. You could vote for changes, but there are so many changes that the best course is probably to send it back to the Commission to work on it some more and return with changes.

    Audrey - I thing the difference is that before we had open ended concerns, but now we have very specific concerns which can be addressed.

    Bob Sisler - Suggests a sidewalk up Putney Road.

    Audrey - They are going to do that.

    Bob S. - That was promised ten years ago.

    Audrey - It will be another ten years.

    Bob S. - Great!

    Stephan Bannsteader - Expresses concern about effect of Putney Road development on downtown, particularly on sense of community. He gives example of Claremont NH, where outlying development had a negative impact on downtown.

    Gary - We've been in the process of planning and converting the plans into zoning proposals for 4 years now. Part of the motivation in the redevelopment of Putney Rd. If you look at current development on Putney Rd. a lot of it is low density and a lot of it is uninteresting places where you wouldn't want to spend time. I look at it as creating growth which will make people want to stay in the state rather than to go somewhere else. It is a 50 year plan which envisions slow, thought-out growth.

    Kevin - When you look at growth for the County, in the past 40 years the county has grown about 40%
    and population of Brattleboro has remained steady at about 12,000. For Putney Road to become a mixed
    use area and take on its own vibrancy won't take away from downtown. The Goal is to avoid sprawl,
    and create a pleasant area.

    Scott Borofsky - Asks how you can plan for changes which will inevitably take place when we don't know
    exactly what they will be. Scott mentions less reliance on gas and oil and private cars.

    Gary - We are trying to do something completely different, we couldn't find any other place which is doing what we are trying to do. If I were to bet on a proposal in the light of less reliance on oil, it would be development on Putney Rd, which is already close to a developed area rather than in an outlying district.

    Vote taken on motion to adopt ordinance as written, defeated 5 - 0 (in order to allow it to be reworked).

    ....

    Scott Borofsky - Presentation on proposal for carving by sculptor Ken Hiratsuka. Scott shows photos of Ken's work, rock carvings, sculpted sidewalks. Scott is working with Ken on a museum show exhibiting street art in NYC East Village in the 1980s. He said that a group of artists moved into a dangerous neighborhood and began to change the ambiance through art. He says that street art and graffiti
    are often confused. Grafitti is "tags" meaning names of kids who spray paint just to show their identity. Some kids doing graffiti went on to become street artists. Street art takes into account location, where you take the locality into consideration to do art which harmonizes with the spot.

    Ken would chisel slate sections in Manhattan, did a number of pieces at night, on the sidewalk. You can still see them there.

    Scott talked about a local meeting where it was discussed that if Brattleboro is presenting itself as an art town, there should be public art permanently displayed. He wanted to bring in a big rock for Ken to carve. But when Ken saw there are granite sidewalks on Elliot Street, he wanted to sculpt on the granite sidewalk. Scott went to Boomerang. They said it is fine with them so long as it doesn't disrupt their business. He said the manager of the Hooker-Dunham Building, Bob Lyons, is enthusiastic. Steve Barrett agreed that there wouldn't be any safety issues. Scott and artists want to clear it with all authorities, and is here to ask for approval.

    At Audrey's suggestion, Dora makes a motion to approve (for the purpose of having a discussion).

    Dora asks Scott if he has talked with the Historical Society.

    Scott - no.

    Dora - Historical Society says that the piece of granite may have historical significance, and they need time to study it.

    There is a suggestion that they make the approval contingent on the approval of the Historical
    Society.

    Scott - would like it to begin at next Gallery Walk.

    Bob Fisher - Given the time constraint, rather than table it, it would be better to pass it contingent on Historical Society's blessings.

    Amended for that contingency, and passed.

    ......

    Public Hearing - Permanent Nudity Ordinance, second reading.

    Comments:
    Michael Gauthier - Reads a statement accompanied by a petition not only by registered Brattleboro voters but by other people who want to enjoy our town.

    Other than shock and awe, what is the point the nudists are trying to make?

    551 Brattleboro residents
    256 Windham county, non Brattleboro
    7 Other Vermont residents
    88 NH residents
    49 Western Mass
    16 Outside of tri-state area

    927 signatures total

    Several people speak in favor of the ordinance, emphasizing morality.

    A minister (I missed his name) said that young men are visually stimulated, so why put something in front of them which will tempt them to sin. He said that these days the concept of sin may seem old fashioned, but nonetheless there is already so much sexually-explicit stimulation in the culture, why increase it with public nudity?

    Ricky Davis- Talked about a mother who spoke with him and was really upset because a merchant was changing clothes on a mannequin and she was upset that her children were seeing it. Next thing will
    be that we will be legislating that Windham Gallery can't display nudes and mannequins cannot be without clothes. He said that he agrees about sin because he is a good Christian, but we cannot prevent people from sinning.

    An audience member, Jaron Bartshe, who identified himself as a gay man said that if we allow a certain group to dictate morality, he is afraid that they will start to demand that gay people be stopped from
    walking down the street holding hands.

    George Reed Savory - We are not legislating a lot of behavior which is common courtesy, like not blocking sidewalks, so why are we legislating this? He asks about existing statewide laws.

    Bob Fisher - There are laws against lewd & Lacivious behavior, but it includes intent, not simple nudity.

    Gerry Benjamin - I am opposed to nudity in public, but I am more opposed to legislating away our freedom to choose. We have to be very careful, we cannot be reactionary. This country is very
    reactionary: We react very quickly.

    Bob Woodward -- I think you got it right last time, this is a case where the rights of the few are subordinates to the rights of the many. I think you got it right the first time, and I hope you stay with it.

    Audience member (Gary _____ ) - Do the people who engaged in this conduct ever ask anyone their consent? We are governed by consent, and you are ruling over us by the consent of the people. And it is not just an arbitrary thing giving a permit to perform a conduct which is illicit and has been illicit for hundred of years. Not every legislation is governed by the wording, but by the interpretation of the judiciary. No body just gives consent to do anything you want. You are prohibited from doing certain things. Might as well just disregard all the zoning issues and the permits you're going to issue. Permission is not automatically just given, consent is necessary.

    Stephen Bannsteader -- I have lived in this area since 1988. I have not seen rampant nudity during that whole time. I am not in favor of nudity on the street. What you are doing is reacting to a
    small number of people testing the boundaries. Is anyone here now nude, testing the law? Has anyone seen anyone out on the street nude? It's not a problem, just a few people trying to test us.

    Dick, as clarification, the temporary ordinance is in effect, so if anyone was nude at this meeting, they would be in violation.

    Terry Martin - Wasn't going to speak tonight. Mentions town's slogan "Where it can all happen," and said it is all happening. At the last meeting a Selectboard Member said there are no sexual predators in town. In fact there are 22 registered sex offenders in Windham County, 12 in Brattleboro.

    He gave a number of examples, including the nudist skateboarder, the fellow from Arizona, and a man who got out of a car on Sunset Road and stripped in front of a woman who was having a picnic. He said that Brattleboro has gotten a reputation for being the place where you can do anything.

    Dora (apparently feeling that she was the Selectboard member Terry was referring to) that she did not say there are no sexual predators: She said that a sexual preditor is more likely a person in a house with clothes on, not someone naked on Main Street.

    A woman audience member said that she is a nurse, sees naked bodies all the time, but would be very upset be being confronted on the street by someone without clothes. She appealed to the Selectboard for protection.

    Ronald Doyle, of Moretown, Vt. saying that the Bible reads almost like a newspaper which describes our society today, quotes Second Timothy Three. Audrey interrupts and reminds him that the subject is the nudity ordinance. He says that he is speaking about the nudity ordinance, and finishes the
    quotation. Nudity is not only a moral issue, it is harassment. You can say something the wrong way and sexual harassment charges will be brought against you, so why is it OK to take off your clothes on the street?

    Rich - Saying that there is almost hysteria, and saying that it is fine to go by religious texts in your own faith community, but it should not be imposed on the rest of us, proposes striking buttocks and breasts from the ordinance. His argument seems to be that we should start slow, and then see what else is necessary.

    Dora - Speaks against religion being the basis of government. Gasps of disapproval from the audience.

    Audrey reminds her to speak only to the amendment.

    Steve Steidle - Amendment is ridiculous.

    Rich - This issue was sparked by male, frontal nudity.

    Amendment voted on and passed 3 - 2.

    Further discussion on the ordinance.

    Dora - This ordinance is not going to prevent nudity, it is not going to stop nudity, it is just going to criminalize it. In history we can see that criminalization has encouraged prostitution and drug abuse rather than prevented them. I think this ordinance is going to increase the media circus, and will just provoke people into violating it. In this country we are on a slippery slope of legislating more and more denials of freedom. She said she is bothered by a lot of hypocrisy by a shop which sells Penthouse and Playboy but is in favor of a nudity ordinance. She mentions an organization which used a nude calendar to raise funds, and then supports a nudity ordinance.

    Dick says he will not vote for the ordinance because of the amendment, and scolds Dora as not supporting the community. He accuses her of duplicity for voting for an amendment to a motion which she is not going to vote for. He concludes, "I'm glad that you are up for election in March and not me." Loud cheering and applause.

    Audrey warns against further outbursts.

    Bob Fisher - To clarify, the ordinance does not criminalize nudity, it is a civil violation. He says to the board, you are going to vote whichever way you vote, but as a clarification, court after court has ruled that nudity is not constitutionally protected.

    Dora responding to Dick says that she expects the ordinance to pass, so she voted for the ordinance amendment because in politics you try to get what you can, but she opposes the ordinance.

    Dora: Brattleboro has become known as a great place to visit, but when the emergency ordinance was passed, the headline is Europe was: "Tolerant Town Becomes Intolerant." She said that this is not the kind of publicity we need to attract tourists who would spend money here.

    Vote is taken:

    Fails 3 - 2 Audrey and Rich voted in favor of it. Dick, Steve, and Dora against.

    Mike Gauthier (from the Audience) said that the Selectboard vote does not represent the majority in Brattleboro, and asks the town attorney how to go about getting the entire town to vote in a referendum, and warns that this is not the end of the issue. Dick DeGray gets up and walks out of the meeting.


    ....

    Next item - Prebate, rebate law.

    Bob Fisher - New law allows public information to be used to extrapolate personal income information about homeowners. Bob says that we have to put ourself in the strongest position in anticipation of being sued, and suggests that we err on the side of not giving out personal information, even if this means not complying with the law that the legislature has given us.

    Emily (Treasurer) We are no longer telling people how much the tax is, only whether they are delinquent or up to date for each quarter.

    Emily explains that the new law also causes confusion for tax prorations at closings.

    Charter Commission Discussion was tabled, and Robert's Rules for Small Assemblies to be put on the next agenda.

    Next: Housing Commission Appointments - Jennette White, which is working as staff support for the Commission. First meeting is scheduled for Sept 18 at 6:30. Selectboard puts off appointing ex
    officio member.

    Meeting adjourned.

     

    What's Related

    Story Options
  • Printable Story Format

  • Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro | 82 comments | Create New Account
    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: shaw on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:20 AM GMT+5
    Wow! I think this might be the longest post in Ibrat's history. Good job Steve! It looks like you captured everything (and thensome).
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: BrattPack on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 01:31 AM GMT+5

    The nudity issue is not over. After the meeting I checked with Audrey and Rich and found that the ordinance has to be discussed again because they have to act on the "Emergency" Nudity Ordinance which is still in place. That would mean, in my estimation that we could possibly end up with some sort of ordinance against nudity. Whether it be the original proposed, and I doubt that, or a watered down one remains to be seen. Or it in fact could be defeated totally.

    I would suggest for those of you who care about our freedom of choice, that you show up when you see it on the agenda again and voice your opinion. I was very disappointed to see so many alarmists religious types stack the deck on this issue. I sincerely hope that does not happen again. Please be there if you care.......
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 03:01 AM GMT+5
    Once again, the religious right wing is pressing their agenda of legislating their morality. Thank you, Dora and Rich, for pointing this out. The next time, we of the free minds need to show up. Bogus claims and unverified petitions are all hysterical reactions. And Dick's dramatic grandstanding needs a rest; we're seeing a little too much melodrama as it is.

    My favorite part of the night:

    Bob Sisler - Suggests a sidewalk up Putney Road.

    Audrey - They are going to do that.

    Bob S. - That was promised ten years ago.

    Audrey - It will be another ten years.

    Bob S. - Great!


    ---
    The Third Horseman: Girls Like To Ride!
    Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action Program.
    Getting off the Subject with a Comment about a Previous Topic
    Authored by: BrattMan on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 09:50 AM GMT+5
    ...which is why I prefer Econo Lodge on Canal Street and not any motel/hotel on Putney Road simply because it is not safe for us pedestrians who do not own or is licensed to drive a vehicle. We now return to our regularly scheduled discussion on nudity and the Selectboard meeting. Please pardon my interruption.
    People with too much free time on their hands
    Authored by: Christian Avard on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 07:17 AM GMT+5

    Religious zealots from Moretown show up at a Brattleboro selectboard
    meeting?????? I guess that's gonna happen when you don't let trivial
    matters go. First came the international media, then came the "bible
    thumpers." And next will be "The O'Reilly Factor" with Bill O'Reilly
    editorializing Brattleboro on his talking points memo.

    Thanks........ "DICK!"

    Keep in mind the town of Wilmington tried nudity ordinances in 2002
    and it didn't stop anything. In fact, the town repealed the ordinance
    and nudity hasn't been a problem since. As I said above, the more
    you make it an issue the more it gets out of hand. I can see where
    Dora is coming from.

    I can see the new bumper sticker now:

    "The last time there was a merger of Church and Business...... fill in
    the blank."

    Any suggestions?
    Walking Out
    Authored by: John Donaldson on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 07:20 AM GMT+5
    My expectation is that folks who hold office in Brattleboro will stay to
    the end of a meeting unless a personal matter needs to be attended
    to.

    We, as a community, are proving to have a very difficult time
    resolving problems and I have yet spoken with anyone who disagrees
    with the statement that "The Brattleboro community is far too
    reactive and needs to be more proactive."

    Walking out of a meeting is a childish political stunt, but more
    importantly it degrades the important work at hand.

    All five members of the board volunteer for the town with a passion
    for what they truly believe is right and there is not a one who sits at
    board meetings with the intent to bring harm to our town.

    Our community members are a strong and diverse group with a willing
    voice and to leave those people behind, no matter your political
    leaning or how strongly you believe in your position, when there is a
    task at hand is insulting and unacceptable.
    Not to mention....
    Authored by: Christian Avard on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 07:26 AM GMT+5

    Calling out another selectboard member during a selectboard meeting
    and saying, "I'm glad that you are up for election in March and not me."

    Good point JD.
    Not to mention....I second that.
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 07:42 AM GMT+5
    I agree with you guys on this.

    Dick DeGray was unprofessional to say and do what he did.
    He really hurt his cause for fiscal reform with last night's stunt and
    verbal spatter.

    I wish the folks in town could all take a collective deep breath, work
    on the important things like infrastructure, town finances, and charting
    the direction of growth so we don't look like: a. sprawlmart with a few
    interstate exits; or b. hippietown with nothing but candle shops and
    tye dye boutiques. I'd like to see more vibrant local economic growth
    that is intelligently planned, so we look classy and beautiful, not all
    shabby and run down. We should pride ourselves on our number of
    bookstores, some smart and clean looking shops, and a still working
    downtown district. I think there is a "middle way" between dumb
    "pave everything with set backs" sprawl and "let the River Garden go
    back to hosting used clothing sales" mentalities, both of which don't
    work. Instead of driving home the differences between the hippies and
    the old New England blue collars, we should find some common sense,
    common ground agreement and work on that. There will probably
    never be a healthy working relationship between anarchist far left
    bomb throwers and super right wing religious factions, but for
    everybody else in between, the vast majority of folks in this town, we
    can work together. As Lincoln said, "a house divided cannot stand."
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: ZAM on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 07:54 AM GMT+5
    The fact that we're even discussing religious mandates in a government function is kind of pathetic to begin with.

    Other thoughts:

    "She said she is bothered by a lot of hypocrisy by a shop which sells Penthouse and Playboy but is in favor of a nudity ordinance."

    Go Dora!

    I'm also concerned. Walking down Elliot ST, I can see nude paintings from the window. Can someone explain to me why this bar (Metropolis, I think) is still open if business if failing because people are so offended by nudity?

    "Nudity is not only a moral issue, it is harassment. You can say something the wrong way and sexual harassment charges will be brought against you, so why is it OK to take off your clothes on the street?"

    Of course, merely speaking is not harrassment. You have to do specific things. Merely being naked is not harrassment. You have to do certain things. Am I the only one not seeing how this is a double standard?

    You can't say certain things to someone. Similarly, you can't walk around rubbing your genitals on people.

    "At the last meeting a Selectboard Member said there are no sexual predators in town. In fact there are 22 registered sex offenders in Windham County, 12 in Brattleboro."

    OMG, Terry, are any of them nudists?

    "Do the people who engaged in this conduct ever ask anyone their consent?"

    That's awesome! People in public need my consent now?

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    The thing of it is ZAM....
    Authored by: Christian Avard on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 09:12 AM GMT+5

    .... is that most sex offenders are people you least expect to be sex
    offenders. They're the people you trust, the people you admire, the
    people who stand out in a town, have respectabilty, the people who
    are close to you. Sex offenders are crafty, creative, manipulative, and
    controlling and hide their serious sexual disorder.

    The people you see walking down main street nude is most likely not
    a sex offender; just a deranged idiot who lacks sound judgement and
    has too much free time on his/her hands. Sex offenders aren't that
    obvious. Some are, but I still say the numbers are small.

    Terry Martin of all people should know that.
    The thing of it is ZAM....
    Authored by: ZAM on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 09:30 AM GMT+5
    Oh, I know, and I agree. Hence the facetious response. I think it's absurd. Especially given what was said as opposed to what was characterized as being said.

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Terry Martin on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:16 PM GMT+5
    Now there you go ZAM & patagonianomore - You aught to know me better than that! You have to forgive me for being "just a dumb cop." I only took Psych I, Psych II and Clinical Psychology in college, plus of few years of street physiology.<G>

    Apparently, you weren't there, because what I was speaking to was a previous remark by a select board member (not made by Dora) that there were no "predators" around Brattleboro. It had nothing to do, nor did I say it did, but was merely rebutting it against the "facts" of what the Sexual Offender Registry reveals as to who lives around and in the Great Area: specifically 22 Offenders in Windham County, 12 of which residing in Brattleboro, 6 with active warrants, and 1, in particular who had a "High Risk" of re-offending.

    OPTION 4 for ZAM: Could a Sexual Offender go nude around town?
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Christian Avard on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:30 PM GMT+5

    Thanks for clarifying Terry. I just hope you still understand that's still the
    m/o of a sex offender though. That's my concern and that the rest of the
    police force is aware of that too.

    As for ZAM's option 4, I hope to hell there's no ordinance protecting a
    sex offender's right to go around town naked. That we can't tolerate.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: ZAM on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 04:27 PM GMT+5
    "Now there you go ZAM & patagonianomore - You aught to know me better than that! You have to forgive me for being "just a dumb cop." I only took Psych I, Psych II and Clinical Psychology in college, plus of few years of street physiology.<G>

    So ironic.

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: BrattMan on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 09:52 AM GMT+5
    This was a reply to annikee's submission to having a sidewalk on Putney Road.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 10:17 AM GMT+5
    There is some confusion over Dick's exit last night. Some say it was a
    pre-approved departure, to handle family matters.

    The outburst against the other members, especially Dora, seemed a bit
    extreme, though. The rest of the meeting had been rather civil, despite
    the hot topics.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Brandon on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 11:45 AM GMT+5
    This is true ... I heard that Dick came to the meeting to debate this issue and all knew he was leaving right after due to a death in his family. So it was not grandstanding, a childish act or anything else you people can dream up. Maybe Dick deserves an apology?
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Christian Avard on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 11:53 AM GMT+5
    I dunno who your sources are Brandon but I'd like to know before people
    start giving mea culpas.

    The only one more deserving of an apology is Dora. DeGray's reaction to
    her was the more grevious of people's reactions last night.

    And while we're at it, how about DeGray give an apology to ALANA's
    Curtiss Reed for referring to him as "The Race Guy." That's what DeGray
    called him when they first met.


    ---
    "One difference between the way the right and left organizes is that the right organizes for electoral power-- even between elections. We organize for self-expr
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: jas on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:02 PM GMT+5
    There is probably some merit to the death. I heard a store owner Galanses passed away recently. Not sure if that is the relationship.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Terry Martin on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:20 PM GMT+5
    Exactly ... and they buried his father-in-law the day before. I attended the Visiting Hours the day before the service in that "duty called" and I couldn't break away.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Christian Avard on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:26 PM GMT+5

    What relation does DeGray have with the Galanses? It would help if you
    let the others know who's related to who here!
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: BrattPack on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 06:13 PM GMT+5
    Dick is married to Jim's daughter Mellisa...
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: tiny on Friday, August 24 2007 @ 07:57 PM GMT+5
    This is the second time you have brought up the race guy comment. Did
    you hear this first hand or from another source. Seems like a serious
    allegation. I would be interested in some facts behind the comment. Just
    curious....
    An apology
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:04 PM GMT+5
    Brandon,

    I was wrong to take John Donaldson's reporting on Dick's departure
    verbatim. I'm sorry to hear that there was a loss in his family.

    There's a lot of sloppy "citizen reporting" that goes on here at
    ibrattleboro, plus lots of knee-jerk responses (like mine was) that
    should be checked first for accuracy. I'm a big fan of peer review in
    science (that's why the scientific method trumps all religions and
    superstitions), and there should be careful checking of facts in
    reporting as well.

    If it's true that Dick said what he said about Dora's one-year term
    regarding how "it was a good thing elections were coming up in March"
    I don't condone that (if it was what he said).

    I also think the nudity issue should be put up as a referendum on the
    March ballot, so the citizens can decide democratically how they want
    this thing to go. I don't think this should be decided by a committe or
    by elites, whether THEY are elected or not. It's an issue that seems to
    bother a lot of voters in the community.

    Buddy
    An apology
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:27 PM GMT+5
    I would say our report by SKB is not sloppy. It is your best written
    report on the meeting last night.

    You read it right. Dick walked out without explanation to the public at
    the end of a heated discussion where he was lashing out at fellow
    board members. Numerous viewers and people in the room were
    confused. It was not made clear to all, and the reasonable impression
    for those who didn't know was that it related directly to the items
    being discussed.

    Watch the meeting when it repeats.

    (Sloppy is the Reformer getting the main piece of the story - who
    voted and why - wrong then WKVT using the Reformer as their source
    for radio news all morning, repeating it incorrectly.)

    An apology
    Authored by: Christian Avard on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:31 PM GMT+5
    Well put Chris.

    I didn't mean to pick on ibrattleboro
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:35 PM GMT+5
    Yeah, "sloppy" applies to the Reformer, to the New York Times, and
    anyone who doesn't do good fact checking (I bring up the Times
    because of the Judith Miller thangy).

    I will most definitely watch the procedings when they come on channel
    8.

    I think this issue should come up for referendum, let the voting bloc
    decide it in March. That should settle the issue, IF the referendum is
    worded properly (for example, I think only genitals should be covered
    because female breasts are, no pun intended, a 'touchy' subject,
    especially because breast feeding is involved and because men don't
    have to cover theirs---although I know of some cases where they
    SHOULD, for beauty's sake--ha ha). I also think the referendum
    should just involve the public areas downtown, which could be
    specified carefully in a referendum.
    Radio stations and staying the whole meeting
    Authored by: shaw on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 04:18 PM GMT+5
    I'm afraid most radio stations in the New England area DO NOT send out reporters to cover news stories. Instead, they read the newspaper stories on the air. I can say that from experience. When I was working at The Transcript, we'd hear 99% of our stories read over the air the next morning (I mean jeez...they could have at least changed a word or two that I wrote, but nooooooooooooo. It was all repeated verbatim).

    BTW, at least Steve stayed all the way from the beginning to end of the meeting. I COULD be wrong, but The Reformer's piece looked like the reporter left during the meeting.
    Radio stations and staying the whole meeting
    Authored by: BrattPack on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 06:19 PM GMT+5
    Never saw a Reformer reporter there, I ended up sitting in his usual chair, he was nowhere to be seen.....
    Walking out
    Authored by: SK-B on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:42 PM GMT+5
    Ordinarily, it would be an expected courtesy for a Board Member to explain why he is leaving, rather than to just walk out. If Dick had to leave because of personal business and in the heat of the moment he forgot to say something, it would make more sense (in my opinion) for there to be a clarification rather than demands for an apology.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: ZAM on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 04:10 PM GMT+5
    So do we know for a fact this is true? Did Dick have an engagement? Does it excuse the rest of his behaviour?

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: jas on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 10:54 AM GMT+5
    The more interesting thing about this meeting and several meetings recently are Audrey's dictatorship style and condescending tone. It's amazing anyone can recognize her between the cloud of dictatorship hanging over her head and the big chip on her shoulder.

    I am particularly concerned that she stipulates to public participants that there thoughts must be new and not repeating other speakers. Yes she is the chair; however, people want to say their peace even if it is somewhat redundant.

    She has proven to be a hypocrite on more than one occasion re: transparency (the information relative to Winstanley project deal was never revealed), and now limiting public participation at open meetings (if I recall correctly I think this was one of her platforms for running for select board).
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: ZAM on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:06 PM GMT+5
    Audrey's actions and attitude are quite distressing, yes. I really want to see her off the SB. This is getting not only ridiculous, but frustrating.

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Tad Montgomery on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:09 PM GMT+5
    This bit sounds like character assassination to me.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: jas on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:18 PM GMT+5
    I think your confused between character assisnation and the facts. Look at post by annikee on the Bob Sisler questions for an example.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:39 PM GMT+5
    The response to Sisler was an honest reponse - it will be 10 years
    before it is done. It's a state project. She has no control over that - it
    started before her and will end after she moves on.

    Asking to keep people on track with their comments and not repeat
    part of an ongoing effort to keep meetings short while still hearing
    from everyone. Even so, it was their longest meeting so far, ending
    just before 10 pm.

    Whenever the nudity issue comes up, she looks worn out and tired of
    dealing with it. I think many people are tired of it and it is making
    people grumpy. I would guess that might explain why she and Rich
    voted FOR the ordinance - to move on to other issues.

    What surprises me is that Dick and Steve didn't take the compromise
    and "protect" the town from seeing genitals. The amended ordinance
    did almost everything they wanted, but it wasn't enough. It could
    have ended it all. They could have said something like "it's not
    everything I wanted, but our community is now safe...and we can now
    move on."

    Where is the spirit of compromise? Why do they want this to remain
    an issue?
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 12:42 PM GMT+5
    Good questions, Chris.

    Why not put the "no genitals in public spaces view" up on a referendum
    ballot in March? Let the voters, not just Dick, Audrey and the others,
    decide this? I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the majority of voters in this
    town (those who vote anyway) go for the nudity ban in town regarding
    this compromise.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 01:08 PM GMT+5
    And I'll bet pastries to pesos that Bratt voters have better sense than to support anything as patently ridiculous as a "nudity ordinance." But I agree the best thing, no matter the outcome, would be for voters to make the decision.

    -Maus

    ---
    The Second Horseman: Less than a year and a half left in office.
    Shear the Sheeple!
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 01:41 PM GMT+5
    WOW. I think you're going to be wrong on this one. Are you going by
    ibrattleboro postings, or by some other demographics, or just a "gut
    feeling" on this? I looked at the petition numbers, and then add to that
    the merchants in the chamber, and the influence they have, and am
    guessing that the nudity ban will be brought back if put up for a public
    vote. The wording of the referendum is key of course. And I agree with
    you on the public being allowed to decide. But that's just common sense.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 02:45 PM GMT+5
    Well, I could be wrong. I just have faith that Bratt voters will take a deeper look at the issue - to me (although I realize not to everyone) it's clearly an issue of our philosophical outlook on freedom and liberty, and not one of penises. Do we value that freedom, even when we choose (sensibly) not to exercise it? Or do we sacrifice it to protect ourselves from the practically non-existent specter of a naked man? (Say, it all sounds kinda familiar, doesn't it?)
    The choice is clear to me, as I'm sure it is to those who disagree with me. At any rate, you don't have to worry about me voting in Bratt. If I'm wrong, let me know where to send the doughnut.

    -Maus

    ---
    The Second Horseman: Less than a year and a half left in office.
    Shear the Sheeple!
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 03:01 PM GMT+5
    And I would be very skeptical about that petition. Take a closer look. Of 927, only 551 were Brattleboro "residents." How many are Brattleboro voters? Why did they ask non-residents to sign it? How many signed it to get the petitioners to go away? Among what demographic was the petition circulated? Did you ever see the petition when it was being circulated?
    A lot of people will sign any petition.

    But yes, gut feeling is what I'm going on. When it comes right down to it, conservative or liberal, people are generally resistant to more regulation.

    -Maus

    ---
    The Second Horseman: Less than a year and a half left in office.
    Shear the Sheeple!
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 04:12 PM GMT+5
    The petition is mostly driven by chamber contacts, but the fact that
    Babb and the Chamber support this may have some influence in
    getting this up as a referendum vote in March. I think there is a
    majority of voters who don't like nudity in the town, but are more
    laizze faire about nudity at swimming holes and perhaps a streaker or
    two (do people still "streak"?). Anyway, I think you're right about a
    resistance to more regulations in America, but if limits are pushed,
    many people will change their minds. I see most people's tolerance
    limits being pushed too far if they see naked adults hanging around a
    parking lot or walking down a public walkway in town. Americans
    aren't Victorians anymore, but I doubt they are willing to accept full
    frontal nudity in public towns. I could be wrong, but I've talked to a
    lot of people and not just on ibrattleboro, which tends to skew pro-
    nudity tolerance everywhere.

    I lived in Europe for a number of years (Scandinavia) and saw
    tolerance for particularly breasts exposed in public beaches and even
    sometimes in cities and towns, but full nakedness (by adults) in towns
    and cities was REALLY frowned upon, by most Swedes and Danes I
    met, talked with, and saw in the media while I was there. Small
    children are often nude in public---no big deal. University students on
    holiday, particularly upon graduation, when all hell breaks loose, can
    take it all off in a fountain or such stunt. But the idea that they would
    condone or want to allow adults with penises and vaginas cavorting
    around town is just not so. Most Swedes are willing to ban things and
    make up rules and regulations, for the common good, whereas in
    America, the attitude seems to be a childish one of: "I can do
    ANYTHING I want, the state can't tell ME what to do!" It's the same
    with planning towns: Swedes will put up with codes and regulations in
    order to have common rules and order. Americans are all about ME
    and MINE and "freedom" even if it disrupts the commune. I think (my
    opinion) that liberals in this country could learn something from the
    Swedes and Danes, who are in most aspects, more "free" than we
    are, because they are also more grown up about what it means to live
    collectively in an open society, with rules and regulations.
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 04:54 PM GMT+5
    ***ibrattleboro, which tends to skew pro-
    nudity tolerance everywhere.***
    I think that's your perception. Mine is that many people on ibratt don't care for the nudity, but are against an ordinance as a measure to deal with the issue.

    For me, the issue is tied our changing attitudes about freedom. Congress sits on its thumbs while the Bush adminstration invades our privacy under the pretense of protecting us from terrorism.
    There is a big difference, I know, and someone will triumphantly point out that there is a constitutional right to privacy, and no right to nudity. Which is true. But not the issue.

    I don't think there's much sense in analyzing the situation in Brattleboro by superimposing European social attitudes on Americans, as much as I like to do so myself sometimes. The historic differences in the underlying political and social norms are too vast.

    -Maus

    ---
    The Second Horseman: Less than a year and a half left in office.
    Shear the Sheeple!
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 05:11 PM GMT+5
    I think that since America has a relatively young culture, we could
    learn a lot from older cultures, such as European cultures, and in
    particular, Scandinavian culture, which has dealt with much of this
    stuff before. To say that we are not the same *is* true, but to say
    that we cannot learn lessons from history and from other cultures is
    too narrow an interpretation for my taste.

    The people on the ibrattleboro postings who say they don't like
    regulations or rules mandating things seem quick to want zoning rules
    and regulations limiting sprawl, so I don't buy that argument. Maybe
    you mean "cultural" rules? Americans have historically had to
    negotiate with many religions and immigrant culture clashes, so you
    may have a valid point there.

    As for Bush and the distrust, if Gore had won in 2000 with the Florida
    recount, and had been in office for these past 6+ years, do you think
    people would have been more willing to trust government again? I
    don't. You'd probably have to go back to 1963 to find trust again, but
    even then, in Greenwich Village, people were impatient with Kennedy.
    You just can't please everyone. Getting Americans in line behind
    something is like herding kittens. Frustrating as hell, unless you like
    messes and anarchy. I'm not advocating fascism, mind you. Just
    some reform that actually gets us moving ahead. It has been made
    worse the past 45 years because of boomer angst with Washington,
    and leaders who aren't fit to run for dogcatcher.

    Anyway, my final thought is that in the interest of beautifying this
    town, the last thing we need is more hairy nads and saggy boobs on
    display. It's bad enough that people don't take good care of their
    bodies, but showing more of it is just ugly, in my opinion. Stylish
    clothes just look better on most people, with a few exceptions, mainly
    young people and those who are really good looking and fit.
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 06:40 PM GMT+5
    Sure, I wasn't in disagreement with your observations or your analysis. I particularly agree with the American obsession with "me."
    We can learn, but we can't emulate - at least not without erasing the impact of 350+ years of history.

    As for trusting the government, I don't care who is running the government, I'm not interested in giving them authority to invade my privacy and take away my rights or my liberties. It's not an issue of trust this bunch, distrust that bunch. Again, it's an issue of freedom and liberty and how we value it. (On the surface of it, though, how can you trust anyone who guards their own privacy so jealously while playing fast and loose with yours?)
    Frankly, I've already given up hope for this nation. People have no respect or responsibility for their freedom or their liberty. (I could rant here, but I'll save it. My escape is secure.)

    I'll continue to hope that even with a more cursory look at the Brattleboro issue, most voters will see that the anti-social antics of half a dozen naked idiots don't warrant sacrificing one's liberty. There doesn't seem to be much return for the price.
    Only those who succumb to the false and narrow notion that they're "voting against nudity" will vote in favor of the ordinance.

    -Maus

    ---
    The Second Horseman: Less than a year and a half left in office.
    Shear the Sheeple!
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: ZAM on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 07:47 PM GMT+5
    "As for trusting the government, I don't care who is running the government, I'm not interested in giving them authority to invade my privacy and take away my rights or my liberties. It's not an issue of trust this bunch, distrust that bunch. Again, it's an issue of freedom and liberty and how we value it. (On the surface of it, though, how can you trust anyone who guards their own privacy so jealously while playing fast and loose with yours?)"

    I don't see why people even play the trust issue in Politics. Our country's government is one based, in theory, on check and balances and oversight and not trusting anyone with power. It was a smart move, though it's not to say they created the perfect form of government.

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 08:45 AM GMT+5
    It's true; the system wasn't designed to rely on trust. If anything, it was made to eliminate trust by assuring that one area, one faction, or one person could not reign unchecked. It's the retaining of the system that's sorely lacking these days, on all levels.

    As for voting in this town; after the multi-votes used to foist the parking garage on us and the absolute ignoring of the vote to have a Citizen Complaint Review Board, who can TRUST that process anymore?
    :D

    ---
    The Third Horseman: Girls Like To Ride!
    Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action Program.
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: ZAM on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 08:58 AM GMT+5
    "As for voting in this town; after the multi-votes used to foist the parking garage on us and the absolute ignoring of the vote to have a Citizen Complaint Review Board, who can TRUST that process anymore?"

    It's especially funny when listening to the "Champion of Democracy" himself, GW Bush, yesterday, talking about how the voices of the people do not affect the government's policies.

    I wonder, who took notes from who here?

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: richardtete on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 09:26 AM GMT+5
    One of the biggest myths in this town has been the misrepresentation of the voting on the Garage.
    The Selecboard voted 4-1 to build it.
    It then went to Town Meeting where the reps voted 60-40 to build it.
    A petition was then taken out for Town-wide vote.
    The vote resulted in the garage being defeated by 14 votes out of over 1000 votes cast.
    Another peteition was then taken out for a revote.
    The revote was held and the garaged passed by a 60-40 vote.
    That adds up to three elections in favor and one squeeker against.
    Whatever one's opinion of the garage is, the facts of the votes are just that-----facts.
    Bob Fagelson
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 11:33 AM GMT+5
    As far as citizenry goes, that was two votes, one down, one up. Why was a second vote held, except to overturn the first? There's a fact missing.

    ---
    The Third Horseman: Girls Like To Ride!
    Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action Program.
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: richardtete on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:13 PM GMT+5
    The first townwide vote was of questionable legality as the petition for it was begun, circulated, and signed by many people before the Town Meeting votes were cast, much less counted.
    Because of the narrow margin (14 votes out of over 1000) those in favor of the garage took out a second petition. Recounts and revotes are not unusual when the margins are that close.
    The second townwide vote was overwhelming.
    Bob Fagelson
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: richardtete on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:15 PM GMT+5
    Oh. by the way. There was nothing to stop garage opponents from taking out a petition for a third townwide vote.
    Bob Fagelson
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:22 PM GMT+5
    And how many voters turned out for the second vote? As I recall, that was a very bad weather day. And just how many votes constitutes a final vote? Could this have gone on for years of voting?

    ---
    The Third Horseman: Girls Like To Ride!
    Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action Program.
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: richardtete on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 12:29 PM GMT+5
    I don't recall the number but it was at least as many and probably more than the first vote.
    As far as it going on forever, I'm not an authority, but I think there may be a limit on the number of times something can be revoted, and it may have something to do with a certain time period. I am sure, however, that a third vote would have been legal, but after that, I don't know.
    Bob
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: ZAM on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 05:27 PM GMT+5
    "I think that's your perception. Mine is that many people on ibratt don't care for the nudity, but are against an ordinance as a measure to deal with the issue."

    Sounds more accurate.

    But then, it's hilarious that people are using the word "tolerance" like it's a bad thing.

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    Oh, yeah...
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 05:42 PM GMT+5
    Everybody has their own "tolerance" level. Just ask my dad about my
    blasting rockabilly full volume when I was a teenager, in the seventies.

    Tolerance can be a good thing, but I've also seen parents who have NO
    rules for their kids, and I don't like to go to their house to visit. Rules
    are a good thing too. Structure and civil society depend upon a nice
    balance between tolerance and rules.

    Now back to my Johnny Burnette & the Rock 'n Roll Trio!
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 11:45 AM GMT+5
    I am becoming a big Dora fan.

    ---
    The Second Horseman: Less than a year and a half left in office.
    Shear the Sheeple!
    Dora Bouboulis bobblehead dolls
    Authored by: Christian Avard on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 11:57 AM GMT+5

    Rumor has it, they'll be selling Dora Bouboulis bobblehead dolls at the
    farmers market this weekend, with proceeds going to the Jerry
    Remeillard fund.

    ---
    "One difference between the way the right and left organizes is that the right organizes for electoral power-- even between elections. We organize for self-expr
    Hypocrisy of the left reared its ugly head again at yesterdays selectboard meeting
    Authored by: Scott on Wednesday, August 22 2007 @ 04:33 PM GMT+5
    Dick Degray didn’t use the word hypocrisy but did point out how those who campaigned to get on the selectboard saying that everyone needs to have a say in things have been intolerant of those who say what they don’t care to hear. Before the nudity ordinance, Spoon rambled on about how the increased size of power lines would affect the world (Global Whining) and brought up the Kyoto treaty etc. and so Steve Steidel rightfully interrupted to ask Audrey how is this pertinent? She insisted it was and allowed Spoon to ramble some more. Then during the public comment time for the anti-nudity ordinance we had to listen to people make inane claims like the guy who said he is a ‘gay man’ and this law would be a slippery slope which could then cause more laws against ‘gays’ and their rights such as holding hands in public etc. This nutty notion was believed by the leftist board members like Dora, Audrey and Rich Garant. Dora actually equated what the ordinance would prohibit, public nudity, with a loss of rights.

    The town attorney had to point out that it wasn’t a criminal law they were considering but a civil fine only ordinance and that one does not have a Constitutional right to be naked anywhere. The attorney pointed out that the slippery slope notion was an unfounded fear since homosexuals have a right to be of that persuasion and are protected by the Constitution in being so, but that went in one ear and out the other of the lefties in the room. Besides the ‘gay man’, others against the ordinance used inane arguments and rambled on and were allowed to do so, but when one who was for it started to read a short Bible scripture, Rich Garant cut him off saying he didn’t want to hear from the Bible since 'not everyone agrees with that'. Audrey had also said that they didn’t want to hear any moral arguments against nudity.

    So much for diversity of opinion and everyone having their say. If your opinion is based on your moral and religious beliefs then it doesn’t count nor belong in the public arena, according to those who allow citizens they agree with to ramble on and on but those they don’t care to hear they cut off and marginalize. Leftists make the claim that we are a democracy form of government and they want their ‘Democracy Now!’ But the word democracy means majority rules, as opposed to a representative republic government where the rights of those in the minority must be preserved.

    The Constitution says in Article 4 section 4 that we are to be a republic, and never uses the term democracy. Dora said at one point that she doesn’t care if 99% of people want something passed, she’ll vote against it if she sees it as wrong. Funny how they’ll push their own brand of religion (humanism etc.) and acknowledge that we’re a republic when they have the power to vote against the majority that they don’t agree with, but they’re quick to cry about their individual rights being oppressed and in need of protection when they’re view is in the minority. Claiming that those with 'right wing' or 'religious right' views are pushing for a theocracy are typical of the kind of B.S. strawman arguments the left employs as happened at the selectboard meeting last night.

    Degray said he didn't believe in legislating morality. The ordinance is not about that, it's not even about criminalizing a conduct but enforcing a civil penalty for what the majority of people still consider unacceptable conduct in public, and a town has a right to enact such an ordinance.

    One ordinance that Brattleboro had which was unconstitutional (and I believe they no longer have) was the one I took issue with by bringing it up with Jerry Remillard a few years ago. It was the one that said you couldn't simply hand out pamphlets on the street. I told Remillard that the rule was a violation of my free speech, and he said he's have the town attorney look into it. Days later he told me it was to be removed.

    Rich Garant once tried to marginalize my freedom of speech at a public forum where Bernie Sanders was speaking. He and Ellen Kaye set up the forum at the All Souls church and had their own informational papers for those attending. I had some of my own info handouts and was handing some out to people coming in but Rich tried to tell me I couldn’t do that since they organized the public forum at the building. Ellen later tried to butt in and keep me from asking Sanders a question. These people think that just because they set up a forum site that they can tell individual constituents there not to exercise their right to free speech/press or grievance with our public servants. That was the night Sanders lied to everyone saying "There is no Patriot Act II" when there certainly was, it just was technically called something else in Congress but was commonly known to all who watchdog Congress as Patriot Act II. At that time John Ashcroft had spewed the same lie, and actually blamed those talked about loss of freedoms as being the problem for which the government would have to enact more laws to deal with.

    The ACLU on the law that Bernie said didn’t exist >
    http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/17383leg20030328.html

    The top ten advances towards tyranny in the United States during the tenure of the Bush administration, from the Patriot Acts I and 2 to the latest expansion of the illegal eavesdropping surveillance program >
    http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/070807_tyranny_timeline.html

    SK-B said: “After the vote Michael Gauthier said that the outcome does not represent the majority of town residents, and asked the town attorney how to get the issue onto a referendum so that the entire town can decide. DeGray got up, and walked out of the meeting, and did not return.”

    -That makes it sound like Degray had a problem with the town being allowed to vote on having an ordinance, which I’m sure had nothing to do with why he left in obvious disgust. Wilmington had a town vote on their public nudity law a few years ago and it passed by a handful of votes, but was re-voted on two months later and the people revoked it by a handful of votes. The few 'religious right' types which asked for the law there did go a bit overboard in demonizing nudists before the votes but there were real problematic incidents at the lake where open sex was occuring in the woods right near people's cabins, done mostly by homosexual men and not the types that should be considered true nudists.

    SK-B said “Several audience members and Selectboard Members (Dora Bouboulis and Rich Garant) objected to the idea that public policy should be modeled on a religious text.”
    I didn’t hear either the man with the Bible or Pastor Kevin who were there and spoke suggest that the ordiance be modeled on any religious text. They simply pointed out that it’s wrong and there should be some legal remedy against public nudity. The scripture Mr. Doyle tried to read was 2 Timothy 3:1-4:
    But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God…

    Vermonter and avid nudist Jim Cunningham wrote a new book “Nudity & Christianity," that says nudity is not a sin >
    http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2007/07/01/for_blind_author_nudity__christianity_marries_two_passions/ His site: http://www.jimccunningham.com

    ---
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8110153514948749779 INFOWARS.com You can lead the sheeple to the truth but you can't make them think.

    Can't we all be adults about nudity?
    Authored by: NorahCook on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 01:41 PM GMT+5
    Nudity issue is inflamed to a size that is way out of proportion with its significance. Truth is, no one should be going to town government or cops or anyone unless they are threatened/harassed/flashed by sexual predators. If people would please have the courage to act like adults and speak directly to the nude person who is frightening and/or offending them, or at least ask a big, strong friend to please go over and tell that nudist to his or her face that their bareness is detrimental to their child's mental health. Why are we wasting valuable time and resources asking the Selectboard to make our community safe? That's cowardice. I wish the Selectboard could just call this a "nuisance" and toss it out.
    Can't we all be adults about nudity?
    Authored by: BrattPack on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 01:47 PM GMT+5
    Thank you Nora, you have got it right here, not Bob Woodward.. I sure wish you would show up at at the Selectboard meeting the next time this issue comes up, to help us save us from ourselves...
    Can't we all be adults about nudity?
    Authored by: Scott on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 04:05 PM GMT+5
    "Can't we all be adults about nudity?"

    -Adults should know better to keep their clothes on in public.

    "no one should be going to town government or cops or anyone unless they are threatened/harassed/flashed by sexual predators."

    -I don't see a big difference between being 'flashed' by some weirdo and having some weirdo walk naked by your kids on Main Street. Nudity doesn't belong on Main St., and a town has a responsibility to listen to the majority and enact a reasonable ordinance prohibiting it if a majority of the people demand it.

    "or at least ask a big, strong friend to please go over and tell that nudist to his or her face that their bareness is detrimental to their child's mental health."

    -That big strong person should be a cop causing a detriment to the naked person's bank account with a fine as a disincentive to such unruly conduct, and slamming them into a cell if they refuse to put their clothes on.

    "the Selectboard could just call this a "nuisance" and toss it out."

    -And what next- calling those who merely ask their representitives to enact an ordinance 'nuisances' themselves, and outlawing them for even trying? People have complained that having to see naked people where they shop and work etc. is a nuisance and gross, just as stepping in dog poop is a nuisance and gross, and we have ordiances about that for certain public areas. No one is saying ludicrous statements like "cleaning up after your mutt laws are a slippery slope toward banning dogs altogether" as they have about the nudity ordinance. I haven't heard smokers say that the reaonable laws against smoking in certain public places are a slippery slope to outlawing tobacco like marijuana is. People shouldn't have to deal with smoke in their face everywhere and the same goes for nakedness.

    I've said before that one does not have the right to not be offended, but we already have reasonable laws to deal with the few who go overboard with their conduct that others find offensive. The ordinance they were considering (before Garant's modification) was a reasonable one and not a slippery slope to some kind of fascist theocracy as some have cried.

    ---
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8110153514948749779 INFOWARS.com You can lead the sheeple to the truth but you can't make them think.
    Can't we all be adults about nudity?
    Authored by: ZAM on Friday, August 24 2007 @ 03:50 PM GMT+5
    "Adults should know better to keep their clothes on in public."

    So we now legislate what people "should" do?

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    Nudity Ordinance Defeated in Brattleboro
    Authored by: conductorchris on Thursday, August 23 2007 @ 02:36 PM GMT+5
    The best thing to do here is to extend the temporary ordinance for another 2 or 3 years, but give it a sunset clause where it will just disappear if permanent law isn't enacted by then. Then we can just table the whole controversy until the international news media has forgotten and our passions are more seasoned.
    What If...
    Authored by: BrattMan on Friday, August 24 2007 @ 07:07 AM GMT+5
    Hypothetical scenario between a husband and wife who lives in some major city:

    Husband: So where would like to go for our vacation, dear?

    Wife: I was thinking we could escape the drudgery of our crime-infested, overly-crowded polluted city which is noisy and overflowing with traffic at times and spend a week in a nice, quiet small town. One that is filled with a lot of art, culture, unique stores and nice friendly people.

    Husband: How about we spend our vacation in Brattleboro, VT? I hear it fills all of that criteria.

    Wife: Are you nuts? There are naked people running around their downtown business district! Do you really want to expose our young children to that kind of behavior and imagery?

    Husband: You're right, dear. What was I thinking? Let's go to (some other place) instead.

    Do you really want people to think that way about good ol' Brattleboro? I sure would not!
    What If...
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Friday, August 24 2007 @ 09:44 AM GMT+5
    Yes, I see your point. The ordinance supporters have falsely portrayed Brattleboro as a place where naked people run the streets, and some people might actually fall for it.

    -Maus

    ---
    The Second Horseman: Less than a year and a half left in office.
    Shear the Sheeple!
    German nudists respect boundaries//Nude Man Kicked Out Of Salon In New Hampshire
    Authored by: Scott on Friday, August 24 2007 @ 09:55 AM GMT+5
    "There are naked people running around their downtown business district!"

    -I was reading about how in Munich Germany people can go nude in certain parks and other areas but not in the business district. They appantntly don't have a problem with jerks walking down the main streets nude like we do but at least have some respect for those who don't care to see it everywhere.

    http://gogermany.about.com/od/germanculture/a/nudityingermany.htm
    "Germans have a healthy regard for their bodies and for nature. Nudity is accepted on network television and is a natural part of life. That being said, most Germans generally don't flount it. It is much more likely that someone will sit on their blanket or in their beach chair, get undressed and stretch out to read or chat."

    And on occaisions when nudists have left the designated areas where it's OK to be nude, people rightfully complain.

    'Come back to the park, Munich begs nudists'
    "There was a time when tourists who had tired of the Nymphenburg Palace, the museums and the chic boutiques of Munich could wander into the city's park to look at the nudists.

    Those days are gone and the city's tourism is suffering.

    A spokesman for Munich city transport said complaints from people over nudists catching buses back to where they left their clothes after letting themselves float several hundred yards downstream in the park's fast-flowing canal had fallen to zero." >
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/07/14/wnude14.xml


    Nude Man Kicked Out Of Salon In New Hampshire
    http://www.wayodd.com/nude-man-kicked-out-of-salon-in-new-hampshire/v/7561/

    According to the Eagle Tribune, the locals had previously debated the opening of the salon there because of the provocative and low cut clothing worn by its employees.

    ---
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8110153514948749779 INFOWARS.com You can lead the sheeple to the truth but you can't make them think.

    German nudists respect boundaries//Nude Man Kicked Out Of Salon In New Hampshire
    Authored by: ZAM on Friday, August 24 2007 @ 03:54 PM GMT+5
    "They appantntly don't have a problem with jerks walking down the main streets nude like we do"

    Wonder if they have problems with Jerks standing outside the post offices with signs.

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    German nudists respect boundaries//Nude Man Kicked Out Of Salon In New Hampshire
    Authored by: Scott on Monday, August 27 2007 @ 12:09 PM GMT+5
    "Wonder if they have problems with Jerks standing outside the post offices with signs."

    -Unlike free speech/rights haters, signs don't hurt anyone's freedom nor can mere sign holding (as long as there's no cusswords etc.) be said to be so offensive as to justify laws to disallow them in public- at least in a free country that is. They used to have a big problem there with some REAL jerks who disallowed pretty much any free speech. They wore shirts the same color as yours. There still are some countries where you could move to Zam and not have to put up with seeing what you hate.



    ---
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8110153514948749779 INFOWARS.com You can lead the sheeple to the truth but you can't make them think.
    Signs with body parts on them
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Monday, August 27 2007 @ 12:52 PM GMT+5
    What if it's a sign with a penis on it? Or a penis with a sign on it? Or..

    -Maus

    ---
    The Second Horseman: Less than a year and a half left in office.
    Shear the Sheeple!
    Signs with body parts on them
    Authored by: annikee on Monday, August 27 2007 @ 01:13 PM GMT+5
    Or an @$$ with a sign? Or a boob with a sign?

    ---
    The Third Horseman: Girls Like To Ride!
    Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action Program.
    B00Bz and @$$e$ on public websites and their EQUAL rights
    Authored by: Scott on Monday, August 27 2007 @ 02:48 PM GMT+5
    In NH a few years ago they tried to enforce a public decency law against 'Waffles T. Clown' cuz of his giant penis costume. It ended up getting shot down and he won on freedom of speech gounds. The difference is, he didn't actually whip out his penis, he was able to call it 'art' (that stuff you're into Maus) and 'expression'. The famous statue of David is in public and his weaner is for all to see, but if it were to come to life and walk down Main St. in the same country it's in, I'm sure it would be arrested immediately and charged with violating the law they have there (which the people there mostly agree with!!)

    A nude person on Main St. given a civil fine under an ordinance like the one that should have passed here would not be able to claim a right was violated.

    BTW, even though Waffles legally got away with the offending costume, he hasn't worn it in public since. He does at least have some scruples unlike the jerk from Arizona and others who sport naked in a downtown business district. I saw Waffles in the Bratt parade on Independence Day. He was dressed as Uncle Scam and his lady friend was as the Statue of Liberty with bruises and a black eye cuz of the infringments on our (true) rights under Bush and Clinton etc.



    ---
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8110153514948749779 INFOWARS.com You can lead the sheeple to the truth but you can't make them think.
    B00Bz and @$$e$ on public websites and their EQUAL rights
    Authored by: annikee on Tuesday, August 28 2007 @ 07:54 AM GMT+5
    "They wore shirts the same color as yours. There still are some countries where you could move to Zam and not have to put up with seeing what you hate."
    And the same can be said to you, Scotty boy. You want a theocracy? There are plenty of em.


    ---
    The Third Horseman: Girls Like To Ride!
    Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action Program.
    B00Bz and @$$e$ on public websites and their EQUAL rights
    Authored by: Scott on Tuesday, August 28 2007 @ 03:08 PM GMT+5
    I've never supported anything near a theocracy and in fact just the opposite, although I do look forward to the return of the Man who'll establish THE government, the way it's supposed to be, under Him.

    Yeah I know, I'm 'delusional' for that. Whatever.

    ---
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8110153514948749779 INFOWARS.com You can lead the sheeple to the truth but you can't make them think.
    B00Bz and @$$e$ on public websites and their EQUAL rights
    Authored by: ZAM on Tuesday, August 28 2007 @ 04:09 PM GMT+5
    "I've never supported anything near a theocracy and in fact just the opposite,"

    So you're allowed to lie about people's beliefs, motives, and actions, but nobody else is?

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    ...and their EQUAL rights
    Authored by: Scott on Wednesday, August 29 2007 @ 04:49 PM GMT+5
    "So you're allowed to lie about people's beliefs, motives, and actions, but nobody else is?"
    -Give a couple examples of where I did that, and I'll clear up your miscontruation of it and/or point to how it was my opinion which I have a right to as much as you with your many opinions, which are all unquestionably correct (according to you).

    So give a couple examples of where I supposedly lied about people (not so much famous people but locals etc.) and when/how I supposedly said nobody else should have their free speech.

    Besides, I never said that those ranting about how an ordinance would be a slippery slope to the 'religious right' being able to turn this into a theocratic state of tyranny were themselves trying to turn this into a Sodom and Gommorah state or whatever by not supporting an anti-nudity ordinance. If I did, that would be an instance of me misconstruing and over-blowing people's beliefs, but I didn't. I simply pointed out what they claimed cuz it wasn't covered in the paper or here, and it was neccesary to be reported as I see it, for all to understand what the argument entailed. I reported that fact, and then added my OPINION, that it was an example of knee-jerk reactionary 'left' types misconstruing and overblowing and it's nuts. I'd call it B.S. but I wouldn't go so far as to say they 'lied', not knowingly at least, since they seem to actually believe it.

    ---
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8110153514948749779 INFOWARS.com You can lead the sheeple to the truth but you can't make them think.
    German nudists respect boundaries//Nude Man Kicked Out Of Salon In New Hampshire
    Authored by: ZAM on Monday, August 27 2007 @ 10:56 PM GMT+5
    "There still are some countries where you could move to Zam and not have to put up with seeing what you hate."

    Oh God, considering I never said I wanted to regulate that which I hate, that's rich. I should be saying this to you. Fact is, I'm not the one who is whining about having to put up with something he hates.

    All I did, was put the shoe on the other foot. And it's funny, that when you do it, it's okay. When I merely flip that back to your side, suddenly, it's a bad thing.

    You condemn your own actions, Scotty, not mine.

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    German nudists respect boundaries//Nude Man Kicked Out Of Salon In New Hampshire
    Authored by: Scott on Tuesday, August 28 2007 @ 04:00 PM GMT+5
    "Oh God,..."

    -Huh? I thought only 'delusional' people believed in that?

    "...considering I never said I wanted to regulate that which I hate, that's rich. I should be saying this to you. Fact is, I'm not the one who is whining about having to put up with something he hates."
    -I never said I 'hate' nudity, just that it doesn't belong on Main St. I love dogs, but I'd hate to step in their poop and it doesn't belong on the sidewalks. Asking ones representatives to pass a reasonable ordinance should not be considered 'whining', as I said, it's part of ones 1st Amendment right of grievance. Whining is like when someone rambles on during a selectboard meeting about how an ordinance that so MANY other towns and cities nationally and worldwide have that didn't start a 'slippery slope' toward a fascist theocracy in those places will somehow (in their paranoid fear) end up making our local govt. into one.

    "All I did, was put the shoe on the other foot. And it's funny, that when you do it, it's okay. When I merely flip that back to your side, suddenly, it's a bad thing."
    -When 'I' do 'IT'? But I never went nude downtown. Ohh- you mean the sign holding people in front of the Post office you referred to- So you admit you were lumping me in with those you name called since you know I've joined them in the past.

    "You condemn your own actions, Scotty, not mine."
    -I've only condemned public nudity and representatives who wouldn't do the right thing about it.


    BTW, if one who believes in God is 'delusional', then wouldn't that make a pagan (who believes in multiple gods) MULTI-DELUSIONAL?

    ---
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8110153514948749779 INFOWARS.com You can lead the sheeple to the truth but you can't make them think.
    German nudists respect boundaries//Nude Man Kicked Out Of Salon In New Hampshire
    Authored by: ZAM on Tuesday, August 28 2007 @ 04:26 PM GMT+5
    "-Huh? I thought only 'delusional' people believed in that?"

    Didn't say I believed in it. It's an empty meaningless phrase.

    "I never said I 'hate' nudity, just that it doesn't belong on Main St."

    As much as you might want to play the semantics game, the funny thing is I'm still not the one in favor of legislating against what I don't want to see on Main ST. So we're right back at square one. You're ascribing a behavioural trait to me that not only doesn't apply, it applies more aptly to you.

    "Asking ones representatives to pass a reasonable ordinance should not be considered 'whining',"

    It's always reasonable when the person talking about it is the person who wants it.

    "it's part of ones 1st Amendment right of grievance."

    Spoiler warning: Just because you're invoking your rights doesn't mean you're not whining.

    "When 'I' do 'IT'? But I never went nude downtown. Ohh- you mean the sign holding people in front of the Post office you referred to"

    Very good. You figured out what an intelligent person would have known from the beginning. That's progress.

    "So you admit you were lumping me in with those you name called since you know I've joined them in the past."

    Nope. Once again, you miss the point. But first:

    I don't know you, and I don't want to. I don't rally know what you've done in the past. If you're one of the "jerks" in front of the post office, well....

    I know a couple of Scotts, and while one of them's a "jerk," he's not the kind of "jerk" who hangs out in front of post offices bleating. To assert that I know you and know what you've participated in is false, and assumes you can see into my mind. Can you? Are you one of those clairvoyant devil worshippers?

    As the saying goes, Scotty, I don't know you from Adam. To me, you're a faceless person on a message board, an it's only through the insistence of other posters here that I even believe you're real, and not someone's work of satire in a Colbert-esque fashion.

    I chose to turn the phrase around on people you were likely to agree with, as demonstration of the point, which you totally missed in favor of making yet another false assertion.

    "-I've only condemned public nudity and representatives who wouldn't do the right thing about it."

    You've condemned one group of jerks while defending another.

    "BTW, if one who believes in God is 'delusional', then wouldn't that make a pagan (who believes in multiple gods) MULTI-DELUSIONAL?"

    Sure, why not? Whatever floats your boat.

    ---
    Power to the Sheeple!
    The Fourth Horseman: Sent by Hell's Affirmative Action program.
    German nudists respect boundaries//Nude Man Kicked Out Of Salon In New Hampshire
    Authored by: Scott on Wednesday, August 29 2007 @ 04:18 PM GMT+5
    "Didn't say I believed in it. It's an empty meaningless phrase."
    -No Zam, 'God' is not empty and meaningless, as a phrase or in any use.

    "I'm still not the one in favor of legislating against what I don't want to see on Main ST."
    -So then logically you'd be in favor of repealing laws already existing that were legislative actions against what many don't want to see on Main St.>

    You want to have people on bicycles run into you on the sidewalk?
    You want dog poop and trash all over it?
    You want smokers to be able to smoke anywhere and for you to have to breathe it?
    You want more jaywalkers and beggers and obnoxious drunks starting fights outside nightclubs or more screaching of tires and speeding?
    How about hookers? Could you put up with legalized unregulated prostitution on the streets Zam?
    Is it a 'waste of town resources' having any or all of those laws on the books? (cuz Zamlogic seems to be saying they are)

    "Spoiler warning: Just because you're invoking your rights doesn't mean you're not whining."
    -The Revolutionary War started with what you'd call 'whining'. The 1776 Declaration of Independence is what you now call mere 'whining'. The Women's sufferage movement and the 'Civil Rights' era etc. were nothing but a bunch of 'whiners' and 'bleating' says you eh?

    "If you're one of the "jerks" in front of the post office, well....

    -Well.. what?
    You didn't put " " around jerk when you made it clear you feel they are jerks.

    In a previous post, you said*:
    "Are nonviolent protesters really in danger of being shot in the kneecap?
    Because if they are, I'm freaking terrified of the cops now." *At>
    http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:SZPcvzlYSNUJ:www.ibrattleboro.com/article.php/20070801230649239+ibrattleboro+zam+kneecaps&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

    -No Zam, there was never any statement or inference at all from any officials/authorities that non violent protesters would ever be shot in the kneecaps with real bullets- So quit yer whinin!

    "You've condemned one group of jerks while defending another."
    -No one can rationally show how those with political etc. signs are causing a problem or are a disgust to others to the point of needing to overturn the 1st Amendment. Unlike those who chained themselves to cement blocks on someones private property- the ones at the PO break no laws. The scary thing would be if there were MANY like you calling peaceful lawful protesters jerks etc. which would mean people calling for free speech to no longer be free. That would mean no standing with a sign on Main St. as well as no one giving opinions and political comments on 'chat sites' as you call this. I've read many such comments from you here that sound similar to what has been on those signs- so what's the difference?

    ***"BTW, if one who believes in God is 'delusional', then wouldn't that make a pagan (who believes in multiple gods) MULTI-DELUSIONAL?"***

    "Sure, why not?"
    -OK, at least I know that I'm not AS 'delusional' as yer best buddy here who identified himself a pagan.

    ---
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8110153514948749779 INFOWARS.com You can lead the sheeple to the truth but you can't make them think.

    'Naked 'prankster' shot with Taser' // 'Nude man tasered to death'
    Authored by: Scott on Friday, August 24 2007 @ 10:44 AM GMT+5
    'Naked 'prankster' shot with Taser' >
    http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=35319&in_page_id=2

    A naked student covered in oil ran around his school canteen screaming and flailing his arms until police shot him twice with a Taser gun.

    Taylor Killian, 18, had rubbed his body with grape seed oil to stop himself from being caught and was wearing nothing but a long beard and shoulder length hair.

    He entered the canteen at Westerville North High School, Ohio, and ran towards his fellow students who screamed and fled.

    Police said that an administrator ordered him to stop, but he made a sexual gesture towards them and kept running.

    After being shot for the first time he continued running towards a group of frightened students huddled in a corner.

    **School officials described Killian as a good student.**

    'Nude man tasered to death'
    A nude man who had stripped off - after tumbling from a motel balcony and breaking his leg - has apparently been Tasered to death by police.

    Terrill Enard allegedly jumped from the balcony and broke his ankle so badly he suffered a compound fracture.

    With the bone sticking out of his skin, he is thought to have then walked into the motel lobby, where he promptly undressed.

    He then walked flagged down a car and was driven to a nearby waffle house, where he allegedly began abusing staff.

    Police sergeant Sgt Mark Francis insisted: 'This was an aggressive individual, and the officers did what they had to do according to departmental policy.'
    http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=30142&in_page_id=2

    'Police Taser Naked Man'
    (with video)>
    Local officers taser a man they say was waving a weapon while he had no clothes on -- and it was all caught on home video.
    http://www.wsbtv.com/news/9658509/detail.html

    'Naked passenger puts up L of a battle, cops say: Chased, subdued after fighting off guards, pepper spray, Taser'

    http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1611661.html


    'Police send 100,000 taser volts through naked man's private parts'

    Fort Myers Beach, Florida - Vacationers at a Fort Myers Beach Holiday Inn called deputies on Saturday night, reporting that a naked man was running around the building, and soliciting people to touch him.

    When deputies approached the man, 26-year-old Jeremy Miljour of Bonita Springs, they say he became aggressive, and that's when they decided to taser him.

    Unfortunately for Miljour, a probe from the taser latched on to his genitals when they tasered him with 50,000 volts. This however did not subdue him, so they tasered him a second time forcing him to surrender.
    http://mcpierce.multiply.com/links/item/144

    ---
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8110153514948749779 INFOWARS.com You can lead the sheeple to the truth but you can't make them think.

    Feminism and nudity
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Friday, August 24 2007 @ 11:36 AM GMT+5
    Aren't many self-described "feminists" opposed to the showing of the
    female body in public? For example, what if some women wanted to go
    "Hooters" one better and wear wet-t shirts that said something
    provocative on them, or went nude and body painted "boy toy" on their
    bodies, a la Madonna? I would think many women would want to ban
    this, just as they try to ban Hooters establishments, or strip clubs that
    feature nude women on display. The strip club women often defend what
    they are doing for example by saying that they aren't being "sexual" but
    the men only interpret them this way.

    Weather
    Brattleboro, VT
    45 °F
    The visibility is 16.1 kilometers (10.0 miles).

    Forecast


    Local Ads


    Contact the Selectboard
    Richard DeGray, Chair
    Dora Bouboulis, Vice Chair
    Jesse Corum
    Daryl Pillsbury
    Martha O'Connor, Clerk

    Brattleboro Events
    In the next 2 weeks

    Friday 12-Mar
  • 19th Women's Film Festival Begins
  • Sunny Lowdown At Adagios
  • The Legend of Sleepy Hollow - 7pm
  • Yellow Barn "Kafka Fragments" Public Lecture
  • Jatoba @ Rte 63 Roadhouse, Millers Falls, MA

  • Saturday 13-Mar
  • Brattleboro Winter Farmers' Market
  • The Legend of Sleepy Hollow - 2pm
  • March 13 Celebration-The Stone Church
  • The Legend of Sleepy Hollow - 7pm
  • Miles Orgasmic (& Patrick Coman) @ Weathervane Free!
  • The Vermont Jazz Center Presents The Music of Jimmy Giuffre with The Harrison/Schuller Sextet
  • Yellow Barn "Kafka Fragments" Concert
  • Jatoba to Rage the Flat St. Brew Pub

  • Sunday 14-Mar
  • Post Oil Solutions Cold Frame Workshop
  • The Legend of Sleepy Hollow - 2pm

  • Monday 15-Mar
  • Wagons Ho! Teaching Your Dog to Pull a Cart

  • Tuesday 16-Mar
  • Project Management Institute Keene Presents a Preview of MS Project 2010

  • Wednesday 17-Mar
  • Bone & Joint Health- For All Ages
  • MorrowVine @ WeatherVane for St. Paddy's Day!

  • Friday 19-Mar
  • Magic of Spring
  • Fencing Hobbits
  • The Legend of Sleepy Hollow - 7pm

  • Saturday 20-Mar
  • Pruning & Grafting Workshop
  • Winchester Stables Open House
  • Kitchen Science - Super Science Programs
  • The Legend of Sleepy Hollow - 2pm
  • River Gallery Schools 20th Anniversary Benefit Auction
  • The Legend of Sleepy Hollow - 7pm
  • Spring Swing/Ballroom Dance
  • Clayton Sabine

  • Sunday 21-Mar
  • The Legend of Sleepy Hollow - 2pm
  • River Gallery School Benefit Auction
  • Clayton Sabine & The Blackout Lottery

  • Monday 22-Mar
  • Philosophy Club – Reason To Think

  • Tuesday 23-Mar
  • Prison Town, USA
  • Community Conversation on Underage Drinking

  • Wednesday 24-Mar
  • Open House at Neighborhood Schoolhouse -am
  • Open House at Neighborhood Schoolhouse -pm

  • Thursday 25-Mar
  • Springtime Rejuvenation
  • Vermong Businesses for Social Responsibility Networking Get-Together
  • The Claire Lynch Band w/ Amos, Stockwell & Buchwald

  • Brattleboro Weekly Poll
    The furthest I can trace my family history back is to about my
    parents
    grandparents
    great grandparents
    great great grandparents
    great great great grandparents
    great great great great grandparents
    even farther back in time
    nothing. I don't know my family history.
    Other
    Results
    73 votes | 5 comments