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    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back    
    Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 12:59 AM GMT+5
    Contributed by: Lise

    Town NewsThe Brattleboro Selectboard again discussed cutting trash service at Tuesday’s meeting, giving the general public their first prime-time opportunity to weigh in. The verdict among speakers at the meeting was nearly unanimous — almost no one wanted trash pick-up privatized, even if it did mean a minor reduction in taxes. For many, the tax reduction would actually be less than the amount it would cost to have their trash hauled away. According to Town Manager Barb Sondag, their estimates showed that the owner-occupant of a $200,000 house would end up paying an additional $330 a year once their new private trash hauling contract was factored in.

    Supporters of the proposal on the Selectboard hung tough with John Allen continuing to lead the way in advocating for the plan. He said that if he could reduce people’s taxes by eliminating trash service, he would feel good. Corum and DeGray also weighed in with mild statements of support. Only O’Connor was mum on the plan. Meanwhile, public opposition got off to an early start when Ian Kiehle of Brattleboro performed a bit of political street theater in the Selectboard meeting room to make his point.

    The meeting began with an ice storm update from Barbara Sondag. She said that only about 150 homes in Brattleboro were without power as of Tuesday and that they were expected to have it back within the next day or so. She said that the sheer breadth of the storm damage regionwide made it hard to fix, and that restoring power was proving to be slower than many would like. But she said, residents were doing ok even without power, stressing to any who might not have gotten the message that it is a good idea to have some emergency supplies on hand just in case. The weather report has been iffy lately, and it’s possible more people might lose (or re-lose) power as tree limbs broken in the ice storm are brought down by heavy snow. Sondag reminded people of the importance of a battery-operated radio and said to tune into WTSA in the event of an emergency.

    Board Chair Dick DeGray asked again that people donate to local charities including his own favorites Project Feed The Thousands and the Reformer Christmas Stocking. He said that the Christmas Stocking still had $60,000 to raise but that he was hopeful they would reach their goal by Christmas Day. He also thanked everyone for the spirit of community and volunteerism that has been in evidence both in holiday charity efforts and the aftermath of the recent storm.

    Town planner Sarah Brennan reminded folks that the Planning Department is forming a Town Plan Advisory Group to participate in formulation of the new town plan. The group will help set goals, do outreach, and review drafts of the town plan. Meetings will be held roughly every two months for two years. She asked interested persons to send a letter of interest to the Planning Department for possible appointment to this group.

    The Town’s intervenor status in the VY relicensing matter came up for discussion during Public Participation, with a number of citizens rising to speak. All were in favor of the Selectboard calling a public hearing on the matter so the public could weigh in on VY relicensing. DeGray said that “there was no support for a public hearing in executive session.” Garant said there was, implying that he had supported it. DeGray said that wasn’t true. DeGray said he was not in favor of granting a public hearing on the VY issue. Garant was strongly in favor and made a motion to calling for a public hearing to be held in the first couple weeks of January. After some debate as to the legality of his motion, the motion was voted down by a resounding 4-1, with only Garant in support.

    Citizens in favor of the public hearing felt that the issue of VY relicensing was of such vital importance to the town that townspeople and not just the Selectboard should be allowed to have input. By way of rationale in refusing the hearing, DeGray said, as he has said before, that if they held a public hearing, it would be “50 people saying this and 50 people saying that, and I’d hear nothing I haven’t heard before.” He said the opportunity for the public to weigh in would be at the January 6 Selectboard meeting, where it would appear as a regular agenda item.

    At least one member of the public rebutted DeGray’s logic, saying that if while there might not have been support for the hearing among Selectboard members in executive session, there was plenty of support among citizens and they should be heeded. Nonetheless, the Selectboard moved on.

    The Selectboard then convened as Liquor Commissioners where it approved an outdoor entertainment license for a band to perform as part of a Drop In Center fundraiser. The Christmas Tree Band will be performing downtown this Saturday for benefit of the Center.

    The monthly financial report got to Selectboard members a bit late this month, leading them to ask for a two week reprieve while they digested its contents. They’ll be back with questions at the January 6 meeting. However, one tidbit forthcoming was that the area has been declared a state disaster area, qualifying the town for some funds to recoup added expenses from the ice storm.

    Martha O’Connor said that in her opinion, she understood that the storm would trigger unanticipated expenses, and that the Town had performed well during the storm, doing what needed to be done.

    Andrea Livermore and Dan Yates of Building A Better Brattleboro were on hand to present next year’s budget and work plan to the Selectboard for approval. The special tax assessment to downtown property owners remains the same for the third year, as Livermore said this was not the economic climate in which to ask for an increase. That accounts for $80,000 of their budget which is up 17% over last year with funding and revenue from other sources.

    The work plan, which is comprehensive and highly committee-driven, is based around a basic mission of getting “feet on the street” or more to the point, customers in the stores and businesses downtown. They have plans to improve their web site, do some market research including zip code surveys, and market downtown more effectively to both local and out-of-town visitors.

    Livermore said it all runs on volunteers and urged interested people to get in touch or visit the web site for more info. The Selectboard approved both the budget and the work plan with little comment. There were however, suggestions from the audience including one to apply gold leaf to the “rusty spots” on the facade. The same person also said that she would like to see a barter collective or swap meet held in the River Garden periodically. Livermore thanked her for her suggestion and referred her to Tim Stephenson of Post Oil Solutions who is responsible for the Winter Farmer’s Market.

    Sean Donovan of the engineering firm managing the TriPark water and sewer upgrade gave an update. Contract 1 is doing pretty well, at around 40% completion. Contract 2 is doing really well, with 10 homes hooked up to water and sewer and another 68 connected to water. He said that by next summer, both contracts will be completed and all homes in the park will have both water and sewer connections. He also asked that approximately $70,000 be released from contingency funds to cover change orders to the original contracts for drainage improvements, new culverts, and pump station roof work. DeGray said he distrusted change orders but acknowledged that this one seemed necessary. The board approved the change orders 5-0.

    The board then turned to the Fiscal 2010 budget and more specifically, to be or not to be a town that provides trash service. Barb Sondag again made the case for cutting some if not all trash service to town residents and presented the four options. She said cutting trash service would reduce the budget and lower taxes. She said that in her opinion, the town was at the point where services had to be cut as staff and expenses had already been cut to the bone.

    As Sondag completed her presentation, Ian Kiehle of Brattleboro rushed in, carrying four large trash bags. The bags appeared to be stuffed wtih newspaper and had a large notice attached to them that read “Ending trash pickup — penny wise, pound foolish.” DeGray immediately called a recess while Ian made his way out of the room. Sondag said later in the meeting that the bags had been stuffed with recyclables, thus proving her point that people could reduce trash by recycling more....

    There was considerable discussion of Spoon Agave’s idea for an enterprise fund for trash. DeGray was against this idea from the start, and Sondag and Finance Director John Leisenring both said that it would not achieve the results intended. DeGray was more blunt, saying that once commercial and industrial taxes were factored out of the equation, the fund would not have enough revenue to sustain itself.

    A key point, it turns out, is that some members of the Selectboard see a fundamental unfairness to the fact that industrial and commercial landowners pay taxes that apply to trash service but that they do not themselves benefit from trash service.

    Sondag then explained the tax ramifications. For a homeowner who lives in his or her $200,000 house, the tax savings is about $140 if the town does away with trash service. But the added cost of trash removal (or disposal by driving it oneself to Old Ferry Road) is close to $500. The net result is an increase in costs to that homeowner of over $300 per year. The owner of a trailer valued at $40,000 would save $30 on their tax bill but incur the same new trash costs, making their net cost increase over $400 per year.

    The group that saved the most and would not incur a trash offset was industrial and commercial owners. That group would save around $1100 per year in taxes, and since they already pay for their own trash removal, there is no offset. When asked where the breakeven point was, John Leisenring gave a ballpark of $375,000.

    A number of citizens rose to speak after that, almost all in opposition to the proposal to cut trash service. For most, the amount of the tax decrease would not outweigh the increase in cost for trash removal, but they cited other reasons including increased dumping, burning and other forms of inappropriate disposal. A Mr. Cummings spoke in defense of elderly people on fixed incomes, who he said were hurt by this proposal. Dora Bouboulis cited families in distress.

    But for most, the numbers just didn’t add up. Dart Everett said that by his calculations, this would cost homeowners half a million more than the current million dollar trash collection. There would be no savings, and in fact an increase for many if not most.

    Returning to the heart of the matter, Spoon Agave asked: why does the Town need to cut this service from the budget? He was told that the reason was that the Selectboard felt that a 3.4% increase was too high.

    John Leisenring capped the discussion with his thoughts. “Town Trash removal for residents is a bargain compared to getting it on your own,” he said. Private hauling will always be more expensvie. But he said, “People always want reduced taxes.”

    With regard to budgets, Leisenring pointed out that like prices generally, municipal costs rise year to year. “Folks have to understand that government may be more efficient than we think,” he concluded.

    Ellen Angstrom summed it up for the public: “I haven’t heard anyone here saying “Lower My Taxes!” she said, noting that it was cheaper for her to take a tax increase. “It takes a village.”

    DeGray said that the board was ready to act on the budget and would probably wrap it up at the next budget meeting. There was no vote at this meeting as to continuation of trash service.

    Following the weighty trash discussion, the board whipped through the rest of the agenda.

    The board approved a list of errors and ommissions from the Board of Listers.

    The winning employee suggestion this month was to place fuel oil tanks in the basement instead of in underground storage tanks. This idea is expected to save the town a lot of money.

    And the final item was appointments of Town Clerk Annette Cappy, Town Treasurer Emilie Thomas, and Fisher and Fishers as town attorneys. Tom Finnell also received a committee appointment.

    The next budget meeting will be held Monday, December 22 at 7:30 am. If DeGray is correct about procedure, the vote on trash service could be taken as early as then. Rich Garant said he was unlikely to make this meeting due to his job at the Postal Service.



     

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  • Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back | 110 comments | Create New Account
    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: SpudHill on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 04:38 AM GMT+5
    So it appears it's the business owners who will save a tremendous amount of money with this move.

    I think we now know who that anonymous caller to Dick DeGray with the hefty amount of power and pull was.....a Business Owner!

    And John Allen is my hero with my best interests at heart because he would like to cut my taxes by around $140 but increase my overall cost of living by $500 not to mention the loss of my time and inconvenience. Thanks John, I'm so thrilled that you're looking out for me. Wow, with thinking like this who's worried about the fiscal condition of the town in years ahead. Certainly not the local business owners. And as concerned as I am about their survival during these hard economic times I am really not interested in subsidizing the possibility of their survival to the tune of an increased cost of living.

    Personally if the Selectboard votes for this I think we should look into impeaching them....this is an especially outrageous now that we know where the pressure is coming from and who will benefit from this extraordinarily ill-conceived move.
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service - Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 10:34 AM GMT+5
    No surprise that this SB should care more about money than people. As for John Allen "feeling good", I'd like to feel good, too, John. But not if it cost every homeowner in town another 330 bucks a year to do what they already did, with a lot more hassle involved. Nobody, contrary to John Lieisenring's allegation, was yelling, "Reduce my taxes!" at this or any meeting, as Ellen Angstrom noted. This is a load. I don't use town trash, I pay the tax, I also pay for private hauling, and want the Town to have municipal pick up for the public good.

    But apparently, anything I say doesn't matter because I'm not monied.

    The impression that the majority of the SB has, that Bratt residents wouldn't let trash take over the town, is a window into their life views. Had they ever spent time in the poorer sections of town, they'd know better.

    Kudos to Rich Garant for standing his ground and to Ian Kiehle for a bold statement. I hope lots of people bring their trash next board meeting.
    Selectboard: Mathematically challenged, or just in the pocket of business
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 08:18 AM GMT+5
    I think it's pretty clear that business interests will win out over those of the residents under this selectboard. It doesn't seem to matter to them that businesses, at least, have the option of passing expenses along to customers.

    ***A key point, it turns out, is that some members of the Selectboard see a fundamental unfairness to the fact that industrial and commercial landowners pay taxes that apply to trash service but that they do not themselves benefit from trash service.***
    Are they serious, or is this just the main excuse? I mean, there are quite a few services that aren't used by a substantial number of taxpayers.

    If it's fairness and balance they seek, perhaps they should take into account full tax picture. People don't pay their education and municipal taxes in separate chunks, it's all the same to the taxpayer. Businesses don't pay the "local education tax" that residents must pay, saving, I would guess, more than $1,100 per year over similarly valued residential properties. (Even taking the difference in the residential and non-residential statewide tax into account.)
    If it's fairness they seek, perhaps they could levy a special municipal tax on businesses to equal to the difference between resident education taxes and business education taxes, then use that to supplement the sanitation budget.
    I'm betting they don't want to be quite that fair.

    ***John Leisenring capped the discussion with his thoughts. “Town Trash removal for residents is a bargain compared to getting it on your own,” he said. Private hauling will always be more expensvie. But he said, “People always want reduced taxes.” ***
    Do they listen to Leisenring at all? He seems to have a knack for boiling things down.

    Given the numbers - businesses will save an average of $1,100 per year and a mobile home owner will pay an extra $400 per year - this is obviously a proposal that's targeted to benefit those with the most ,at the expense of those with the least.

    Businesses are crucial to the town's well-being, no doubt. But how can the selectboard justify pushing the burden onto those with the least?

    I think this little bit from the VY hearing discussion underscores the problem here: ***DeGray said that “there was no support for a public hearing in executive session.” Garant said there was, implying that he had supported it. DeGray said that wasn’t true. ***
    Not only doesn't the chair listen to voters standing right in front of him, he doesn't listen to the other people on the board. Starting to sound like another one-man medicine show.

    ---
    Capitalism:
    1691 - 2008
    RIP
    Well if memory serves...
    Authored by: Christian Avard on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 10:01 AM GMT+5
    >> DeGray said, as he has said before, that if they held a public
    hearing, it would be “50 people saying this and 50 people saying that,
    and I’d hear nothing I haven’t heard before.” <<

    How much of the nudity discussion was 50 people saying this and 50
    people saying that? How much of it was redundant and things we've
    heard time and again? Double standards have we?

    This is the same guy who queried whether the Fair Trade town
    organizers would protest outside his souvenir shop. He also had the
    audacity to refer ALANA's Curtis Reed as "The Race Guy."

    Whatever "Dick."







    ---

    "A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory." - Steven Wright, comedian

    Well if memory serves...
    Authored by: janed on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 12:37 PM GMT+5
    "The long memory is the most radical idea in the country." Utah Phillips

    ---
    janed
    Selectboard: Mathematically challenged, or just in the pocket of business
    Authored by: rlh on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 07:58 PM GMT+5
    last year I tried curb side pick up
    $35 month
    $420 a year

    up here at the Westminster/Rockingham Transfer Station it is $1.25
    for 1 "kitchen" bag or $2.50 for a "large" bag
    cost me about $100 a year plus gas and time, which I don't mind to
    much, is a chore I do with my son and we run other errands visit
    friends etc.

    one concern I would have in Bratt. especially downtown
    not everyone owns a vehicle with which to haul their trash
    and
    if you stop pick up you get more litter, business owner will have to
    lock their dumpsters as people would rally rather use them than pay
    or find a way to get it to the transfer station...

    I don't live in Bratt anymore and think this is dumb



    Boot John Allen
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 09:08 AM GMT+5
    When is John Allen's term up?

    I can't believe that the town would just sit down and take this stupid
    idea. It's pretty clear in today's world that "Busheconomics" i.e. tax cuts
    as the very first priority, don't work.

    I think a "Boot John Allen Out Of Office" campaign needs to be started
    up.
    About John Allen
    Authored by: Lise on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 11:56 AM GMT+5
    In fairness, I don't think John Allen is alone in his support of this
    proposal -- but he is the only one (that I can remember) who has openly
    declared that support at a public meeting. The only vote so far was a
    straw poll among board members on the budget as a whole. 4 out of 5
    said that the 3.4% increase was too high, with only Rich Garant
    dissenting. So clearly, there has been "support on the board" for cutting
    the budget and trash pickup is the service they decided to focus on.
    About John Allen
    Authored by: SpudHill on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 12:01 PM GMT+5
    As I said earlier, if in fact, board members are going to financially benefit from this decision they really should step down from the vote. This decision could end up being very costly not only to individual homeowners but to the community as a whole. I don't buy Barabara Sontag's $500 figure at all, I think she needs to show some how that figure was determined. But it is not correct for board members who own businesses and therefore will get a very large tax break from this vote to participate.
    About John Allen
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 01:27 PM GMT+5
    The "$500" is calculated thusly:

    Estimated monthly cost of private trash hauler - $40
    Months per year 12

    TOTAL $480

    Jesse also said he spoke with one hauler who said about $35-40 for a 2
    trash can household.
    About John Allen
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 01:42 PM GMT+5
    Wow. What if you have one trashcan every two weeks? I wonder.... Maybe people like us would actually save money too. :)

    Not that I think that makes it a good idea, mind you. Trash is a public problem and I prefer a public solution, which maximizes efficiency.

    This goes for downtown businesses as well. Why can't our contract cover their hauling needs too? Doesn't really make sense to me.

    ---
    Paula
    About John Allen
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 02:00 PM GMT+5
    Hey I know!

    Why not take highway and road maintenance away from the federal and
    state governments (and in town roadways away from town control) AND
    GIVE ROAD REPAIR BACK TO THE PEOPLE? Each of us private citizens
    could be responsible for our own section of roadway, to do with as we
    deem fit, as Kramer did on an episode of "Seinfeld". I could just see
    John Allen's eyes light up at the idea!
    About John Allen
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 02:04 PM GMT+5
    I agree completely.

    I plan to turn the hundred feet of Rte. 9 in front of my house into a sidewalk. What will you do with the piece of highway YOU adopt? :)



    ---
    Paula
    About John Allen
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 03:14 PM GMT+5
    I'm going to add extra traffic lanes, and up the speed limit, because I
    don't need no professional Blue State elitist engineer bureaucrat to tell
    ME how to design my private roadway.
    About John Allen
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 12:45 PM GMT+5
    I didn't realize that. Martha O'Connor seemed quiet during the
    discussion, and I thought Dick DeGray was defending the idea of a
    municipality-run trash pick up, when he mentioned how expenses like
    trucks, crews, etc. were not taken into consideration. Maybe I missed
    something. John Allen and Jesse Corum seemed most intent on the
    "Supply Side" economics idea of having everyone do trash collection
    themselves. I thought the Obama election was a referendum on Ayn
    Randian libertarianism?

    The point made about fire and police service being covered by taxes
    (as well as other services like water and sewage) seemed right on the
    mark. There are certain functions which municipalities perform best,
    and dismantling these services is the most BONE-headed idea to come
    along in a long while.

    I think the town's citizens need to rise up and vote 'NO' to this idea. If
    the Selectboard implements it, those who vote for taking trash
    removal from the town's tax paid system should be voted OUT OF
    OFFICE.
    About John Allen
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, December 26 2008 @ 12:34 PM GMT+5
    Buddy- In answer to John Allen. He ran for a 1 yr seat last year, so he'll have to run again in Feb for reelection.

    The vote it will go to is Rep Town Meeting. Those folks are who we should be pressing to vote NO on PAYT. This entire thing has been an unnecessary aggravation all so the SB can say it's done something for business and they kept taxes down 2.9%. It benefits no one but the wealthy,
    Boot John Allen
    Authored by: tomaidh on Sunday, December 21 2008 @ 12:58 AM GMT+5
    From the Town Charter:

    Section 5. Recall.

    A. The voters of the town may recall any of the elected town or town school district officers listed in Article II, Section 1, of this Charter, with the exception of town meeting members.
    B. A recall petition, signed by at least twenty-five (25) percent of the legal voters of the town, and bearing their addresses, shall be filed with the town clerk within fifteen (15) calendar days of its issue. The town clerk upon receipt of a valid petition shall, between forty-five (45) and sixty (60) calendar days, hold a special election with voting by Australian ballot to consider the recall of an elected town officer.
    C. When such a petition is approved by a majority of the ballots cast at such special election, the town officer named in the petition shall thereupon cease to hold his office.
    D. A vacancy resulting from the recall of an officer shall be filled in the manner prescribed by law.
    E. A recall petition shall not be brought against an individual more than once within twelve (12) months.

    Ther's 12,000 people in Brattleboro. Assuming half of them are legal voters, that's 2000 signatures.Not an easy task.
    Unbelievable.
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 09:25 AM GMT+5
    Don't business owners own homes?

    Don't business owners pass the extra expense of being in our town right back to the people who support them by buying at their stores instead of walking half a mile to Wal-Mart?

    Don't business owners want a clean town where tourists will want to shop?

    Don't business owners feel any civic duty to the less fortunate, who cannot even afford to shop at their stores?

    I am disgusted. This is not what I moved to Brattleboro for. If I wanted to live in a town where people like this were in charge, I would have moved to New Hampshire.

    ---
    Paula
    Unbelievable.
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 10:46 AM GMT+5
    Everybody, flood the Town offices with emails, calls and snail mail if this matters to you. This is, as we thought, another "old boy" SB who cares only for the money, not the people.

    And I predict that if this becomes a voting issue, they'll do the same as they did for the Parking Garage.

    I heard thru the grapevine that Martha is against this, but she said nothing last night. Dick (business owner), John Allen (business owner) and Jesse Corum (business owner) want this. I've seen no one else in favor.

    Unbelievable.
    Authored by: SpudHill on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 11:11 AM GMT+5
    Another thought about this. How can they guarantee that the cost to the "average" home owner will only be $500. Without the bargaining power of the town as a whole it seems that this could easily cost each home owner a lot more money than that...they really will have no control over what we are charged by the private carting companies. So I would say that the $500 figure is undoubtedly the bottom figure. This could easily cost much more.

    And sure these guys are home owners but you see they'll be saving enough in their business tax savings to pay for the extra cost at home and still have some left over. This really is outrageous...and they shouldn't be allowed to push this through. John, Jesse and Dick at least should have to recuse themselves from a vote since they will profit personally. I felt something was fishy with this plan at the get-go and now it's clear what the interests are.
    Unbelievable.
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 11:20 AM GMT+5
    This is a "savings" for one year, too.

    Taxes will go up in the future, too, one could assume. Even without
    trash.

    John L's speech on the value of municipal services was great.
    Unbelievable.
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 11:37 AM GMT+5
    How about contacting your Town Meeting reps? Presumably they can put the funding back in the budget at Town Meeting. The budget is just the "proposed budget" until it is passed at Town Meeting. It might be a good idea to remind the board that they recommend a budget, they don't dictate it.



    ---
    Capitalism:
    1691 - 2008
    RIP
    Police involved??
    Authored by: Timmy on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 11:15 AM GMT+5
    KVT just reported that Kiehle was escorted out by police...
    is that true?
    Police involved??
    Authored by: kitty on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 11:24 AM GMT+5
    Yes, Ian didn't just "make his way out of the room," he was escorted out by police and charged with disorderly conduct.

    I spoke with him this morning and he expressed surprise that his point may have been missed since he chose not to use real trash for his demonstration.
    Police involved??
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 11:50 AM GMT+5
    Yes, Barb Sondag smoothly thanked Ian for reminding her that people are throwing away recycleable materials, and sidestepped the point he was making. But it wasn't lost on the rest of us.
    Police involved??
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 12:00 PM GMT+5
    Why were the police necessary? Was this intentional civil disobedience? Seems like a bit of an overreaction, unless he was causing a sustained disruption. But maybe he was, intentionally, in order to get arrested.

    I find this detail to be the most shocking thing about the whole matter. If he did not pose what a reasonable person would consider a threat to anyone's person, or to the process of deliberation, I don't understand why he needed to be charged with a crime.

    ---
    Paula
    Police involved??
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 12:56 PM GMT+5
    Welcome to Brattleboro, where most everything is an arrestable offense.
    Police involved??
    Authored by: paulgardner on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 07:18 AM GMT+5
    On Live & Local yesterday, Ian's dad, Jim said that while Ian wasn't handcuffed for the walk from the meeting to the police dept. they did keep his arm (or maybe both arms - I'm not sure which Jim said) pinned behind his back. He was booked and given a court date.
    Police involved??
    Authored by: Lise on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 11:59 AM GMT+5
    I apologize for my cursory coverage of Ian's protest. I did kind of think
    a police officer might have been involved in his exit, but he wasn't
    dragged from the room that I could see, and i just figured they'd walk
    him to the front door and let him out. But I also remember him saying
    something about "going to pay his fine." Anyway, I do think people got
    that he was against the proposal to cut trash pickup -- Barb Sondag
    turned it around to make her own point.
    Police involved??
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 12:05 PM GMT+5
    Her point is well taken, but confuses the issue for me AGAIN.

    If they want people to recycle more so they can save money on trash pickup, then focus on that instead of on "rescuing" the top 10 percent of income earners in our town from the evil of taxation.

    This whole thing is just an excuse to push through something that has been bugging a minority of business owners for a long time. Like I said before, our Selectboard seems to have taken a page from the Paulson Manual of Crisis Marketing.

    Bail out the rich business owners or the town will be strangled to death! And don't try to protest, or you might be charged with a crime.

    Sheesh.

    ---
    Paula
    Police involved??
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 11:28 AM GMT+5
    I saw him walking into town this morning -so he either escaped or was
    let go.

    Police involved??
    Authored by: Rabiah on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 01:23 PM GMT+5
    For some reason, I'd like to think he escaped rather than he was let go! Brattleboro's own "Alices Restaurant!"
    Police involved??
    Authored by: tomaidh on Sunday, December 21 2008 @ 12:41 AM GMT+5
    I heard he threw his shoes at the chief and is now under indictment for Terrorism.
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 12:31 PM GMT+5
    Congrats Tom, whatever committee you were appointed to is lucky.
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service &#8212; Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: tomaidh on Sunday, December 21 2008 @ 12:42 AM GMT+5
    Thanx muchly. I'm on the Board of the Housing Authority.
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: larrybloch on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 02:03 PM GMT+5
    When Ian was booked last night, in addition to being given a Disorderly
    Conduct citation, he was issued a No Trespass order prohibiting him from
    entering the Municipal Center until further notice.
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 02:05 PM GMT+5
    Does this seem reasonable to you? I was not there and am unclear on the nature of the protest.

    ---
    Paula
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service â?" Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 02:23 PM GMT+5
    He's just lucky he didn't throw shoes.

    ---
    Capitalism:
    1691 - 2008
    RIP
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service â?" Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 02:30 PM GMT+5
    That's right. Freedom ain't free. You have to pay as you go every time you use it. Otherwise we would be comminists.

    ---
    Paula
    Mark Twain weighs in
    Authored by: paulgardner on Saturday, December 20 2008 @ 10:54 PM GMT+5
    In the Dec. 22 & 29, 2008 New Yorker is a short piece by Mark Twain which claims that only the dead can truly afford free speech.
    He compares it to murder:

    "Murder is forbidden both in form and in fact; free speech is granted in form but forbidden in fact...both are crimes...Murder is sometimes punished, free speech always - when committed."
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 02:41 PM GMT+5
    Seems excessive to me. He walked in, put trash bags on the floor in
    protest during a discussion of trash bags. It's speech. Protected by the
    first amendment.

    He spoke "out of turn" in that he wasn't recognized by the chair, but
    others did so last night, too, at various points. The Chair gave some
    verbal warnings.

    Via the TV coverage I saw no threats, no violence, no resistance. Just
    a message about "pennywise and pound foolish" delivered with some
    drama.

    A littering charge might have been more appropriate.

    Ian didn't stop the meeting, or even take up much time. The chair
    called a 10 minute recess instead of continuing with the discussion.
    The recess added to the drama.
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service â?" Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 03:00 PM GMT+5
    Yes, in it all, Dick gets the Oscar for his dramatic tour de force. A No Trespass on Ian is the heighth of ridiculous. And somewhere, that in itself has to be illegal. Both the Police Dept and all Town offices are in that bldg; he's now denied access to those?
    Selectboard Rebroadcast times
    Authored by: Tenacious on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 09:28 AM GMT+5

    The meeting looks like it will be re-shown Friday at 4PM on BCTV channel 10

    and again Sunday at 6:30PM according to their website
    Selectboard Rebroadcast times
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 11:50 AM GMT+5
    Thanks for letting us know. It's the best show of the season.
    Arrested for What?
    Authored by: spinoza on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 03:07 PM GMT+5
    Based on these reports...If I heard Ian was tased by a nude bear on a skateboard, it would seem no weirder than this.

    A Garbage Bag Party?
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 03:17 PM GMT+5
    I wonder what the police would have done if a bunch of Brattleboronians
    had dressed up as "Indians" and thrown garbage into the municipal center
    parking lot? We could adopt from the Sons of Liberty a phrase: "No
    privatization without representation."
    A Garbage Bag Party?
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Saturday, December 27 2008 @ 06:28 PM GMT+5
    Hmmm....

    Hey Lee, did you borrow my idea for your latest Brattleboro Reformer
    cartoon (Saturday OP/ED page, Dec. 27)?

    You even used my phrase from Dec. 17th: "No Privatization without
    Representation!"

    -Buddy
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: chrishh on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 03:57 PM GMT+5
    This town and state are ridiculous to call themselves progressive or people oriented. In this small pond of a town the business owners cozy up and the select members feel all too important. These people think they are running a company and that the business owners of the town are somehow the share holders or board of directors. They NEVER consider the residents who are paying their hard earned dollars to be here and make this the nice little crunchy granola place that it is. It isn't the businesses that attract people to Brattleboro - it is the PEOPLE, the community. The responsibility of the board is to make decisions that REPRESENT THE PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE'S MONEY - NOT THE BUSINESS INTERESTS. All this group thinks it is there to do is to figure out how to spend money and save the business owners expenses. Bye bye. They can pick up their things and go to somewhere else. Time to bring sanity and responsibility back - these ninny's on the board are like the old ones from a few years ago. Please Audrey, run in March. We'll be tossing these self important do nothings out left and right. And the business owners can go down the tubes. Won't be anyone left in this town to care. Self important twits.
    Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: Belfast on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 09:47 PM GMT+5
    Whom is the selectboard representing ? Businesses will do business with
    each other-while those of us who are the "underclass" (due to our utter
    lack of assets) aka "plain-old citizens" (ostensible customers, consumers)
    can just go hang (so to speak) ?

    I'm poor-which in itself seems to be a situation that society at large
    seems to "blame the victim" for, because if one were a ruthless s.o.b.
    then one would be a financial success (albeit, in part thanks to being
    beneficiary of government handouts-though of course such actions wouldn't
    be called that). Sorry I'm not a thug (and no, I'm not namecalling, merely
    describing the general socioeconomic/political environment as I see it),
    white-collar or otherwise.

    Our culture venerates those who "take, take, take"-we shake our heads at
    those who win the lottery (metaphorically, meaning those who are
    wealthy)-yet we each secretly wish to be atop that pyramid as well, and
    hold out hope for someday being in that position, so we don't commit to
    dismantling (and reformulating more equitably) the existing power
    structure.

    Welfare for the impoverished individual gets no respect & mostly disdain,
    but our system creates circumstances that empower those who already
    have more than their fair share of resources. Poor and/or disadvantaged
    folk need a good public relations person to "spin" our situation (and our
    "right" to be considered as equally deserving of assistance) as effectively
    for the government (at all scales, from the town to the nation) as the PR
    teams working for those who can afford such professional redefiners.

    My rent has already gone up because of the cost of fuel oil, no matter that
    gasoline is cheap lately-my rent is not going to be reduced in response to
    that turn of events. Last thing I need is for "the powers that be" to
    alleviate their own distress at a cost to me via requiring individual
    households (be they homeowners or tenants living according to landlord's
    terms) to shoulder the (collective, thus far) burden of trash & recycling
    items removal.

    I am one of the "untitled", non-moneyed, yet responsible & conscientious
    people. Lest someone retort that I should show up in person to be seen/
    heard, or else I ought not complain-I don't appear at meetings of
    government because I have many phobias (and thus am unable to manage
    the anxiety that engaging with a roomful of people would require). That
    does not mean I don't care about the issues.

    I'm too polite & easily intimidated to phone or write to the members of
    the local governing body, for fear of being thought to be harassing them.
    How shall I "be counted", or my opinion be taken seriously ? Can people
    "like myself" be listened to with as much weight as those persons who do
    not share these opinions & stances ?

    Please do not rescind what services the town provides.
    Yes, I do vote (one of the few activities one can still do for free !)-and I
    will remember decisions made (with which I strongly disagree) when it
    comes time to vote again.

    ---
    "You cannot administer a wicked law impartially-it destroys everyone it touches, its violators as well as its upholders."
    Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service - Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: no-see-um on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 12:20 PM GMT+5
    Garbage? Hmmm-m-m....do I smell the plank of a campaign platform here? That, plus a plank supporting a public hearing about VY's extension proposal and maybe one other town-wide issue that the SB bone-headedly declined to address and, Bob's-your-uncle, you have a ready-made campaign. Issues that gore everybody's ox -- conservatives and liberals alike -- lead to political victories, so take heart, poor-and-polite, and find out when the organizing committee is meeting.

    ---
    no-see-um
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 07:08 PM GMT+5
    I think it is important to note that there were no businesses there asking
    to "stop subsidizing" anything. And no citizens (other than some SB
    members) asking for any cuts in taxes or services.
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 07:15 PM GMT+5
    I have a mind to call the Chamber tomorrow and find out their position, and whether they have lobbied DeGray at all.

    If there are some businesses in favor of cutting trash removal, they are likely working behind the scenes, because whoever pulls the plug is going to be considered a Bad Guy.

    ---
    Paula
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service  Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: SpudHill on Wednesday, December 17 2008 @ 08:14 PM GMT+5
    Oh I'll betcha there's a lot of pulling behind the scenes. Also I would like to know how involved in downtown and rental businesses these three guys are...I think someone mentioned DeGray had a downtown store, anything else? Also Corum and Allen, one business, two businesses...how big is their financial stake in this? This is reminding me of a co-op I lived in once where residents would run, get a pet project done and then that was all they did (one personal favorite was the guy who got the board to pay to double the insulation in the furnace room at big expense, his apartment was over the furnace room and he thought it made his apt. too hot). I am quite serious when I say I really have a problem with this plan now and that I am not buying their $500 a year figure and I quite seriously think any Selectboard member who is going to benefit financially from this decision should not be voting for or against it. Anyone out there know exactly how many businesses these people have individually.....

    In fact, here is how peeved I am...I have decided that I will not be buying anything downtown until this is straightened out. I need to save my money to pay for the possible cost of trash pickup next year. If the business community wants to take advantage and raise my cost of living while pretending that they're saving me tax money, to be honest it's a damn insult.....does Allen realize how idiotic this is or just he just think we won't GET it.....so why should I spend a dime in their stores if this is their approach towards me. Which store is DeGray's, anyone?
    Cutting my own services
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 08:18 AM GMT+5
    I pretty much quit buying things in Bratt after the nudity ordinance, another business-supported absurdity. I spent at about $100 per week in downtown Bratt, so they've lost at least $5200 a year just from Frau Maus and me. And once you get used to not buying stuff downtown... it kind of gets to be a habit. Now we don't even do our grocery or clothes shopping in Bratt. We don't go to Gallery Walk anymore. Once in a big while, if we're in town for a reason, we'll stop downtown for a coffee or a beer or to meet friends. That's about it.

    If there are just a few other people like me, then it would seem that Brattleboro's financial troubles are, partly at least, of their own making.

    You'd be surprised how nice shopping in Bennington and Greenfield can be. Really.

    ---
    Capitalism:
    1691 - 2008
    RIP
    Boycotting all of downtown?
    Authored by: Rolf on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 09:28 AM GMT+5
    Maus,

    I agree with most of what you have written, but the concept of boycotting all of downtown seems like mulching the vegetable seedlings as well as the weeds.

    How can boycotting all of downtown, everything from the Brattleboro Books on down to the Tea Lounge, be beneficial ?

    I may vehemently disagree with the select board,

    but I love my town. Towns need economically vibrant down towns for many reasons.

    Punishing all store owners willy nilly could in a worse case scenario shutter another storefront. This overly broad type of boycott is not likely to be effective, and does not add to the vibrancy of our community as a whole.

    I am sure that if one looked hard enough one could find reasons to be upset with bad decisions made by the Greenfield selectboard or with the board in Bennington.

    Maus, you are perhaps the most reasoned and well informed writer on this blog, (and one of the funniest) but this makes no sense. Was this hyperbole?

    Your talk of personal boycot seemed likestraight forward self reporting.

    Did I read this incorrectly?

    Rolf

    Boycotting all of downtown?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 03:51 PM GMT+5
    Well, I might be unfair. Sometimes I am.

    But it's not so much a boycott or a protest. More that I used to make a point of buying things in Brattleboro, and now I don't. Bratt has lost its "shine" for me. The nudity ordinance is not the only thing, but it's representative of an unpleasant change that has occured in the town.

    I'm not a fanatic about it. I'll probably buy a couple things at Sam's for my Christmas shopping. Maybe I'll have a cuppa somewhere.

    But to answer your question, I would say that if you boycott all businesses downtown, including Brattleboro Books and the Tea Lounge, maybe they'll have more incentive to speak out publicly against things that the selectboard does in their name - like budget cuts and nudity ordinances. Why patronize businesses that don't support you?

    ---
    Capitalism:
    1691 - 2008
    RIP
    Boycotting all of downtown?
    Authored by: SpudHill on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 06:40 PM GMT+5
    My point exactly Maus although I must say I don't agree with you on the nudity ordinance. I was totally okay with that however, that is off the subject. Merchants and local boosters are always proclaiming "buy locally" and I try to whenever possible but often at greater expense. It costs me more to buy locally often but I've always liked the idea of supporting the local merchants.

    But if the local merchants are not going to support me when this SB proposes what is really a raise in my cost of living, then why should I spend MORE on items just to support them.

    Community spirit and support is a two-way street. In order to buy locally I need to have available funds and if the merchants won't speak out against what is essentially an increase in my expenses then likewise I willl be reluctant to support them. I will not go out of my way to spend more to support people who will not go out of their way to support my ability to have the extra it often takes to buy downtown.
    Boycotting all of downtown?
    Authored by: pjmelton on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 06:56 PM GMT+5
    I would note that Lee, whom I originally tried to call out for saying business owners share the trash-tax burden without getting the benefits of it, actually does not support cutting curbside service because it would result in higher expenses for his employees.

    I also noticed this in the Reformer: "Asking town residents to dispose of their own garbage would cost taxpayers about $500,000 more than it does now, said Dart Everett, who owns rental properties in Brattleboro. Why would you make a change to the system that would add that kind of cost to already strapped taxpayers? he asked."

    So I'm getting the impression here that business owners who want to cut curbside service are not necessarily the norm.

    I forgot to call the Chamber today and ask them their position on the issue, however.

    ---
    Paula
    Boycotting all of downtown?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 07:23 PM GMT+5
    I would bet that there are only a handful of businesses that would publicly support the selectboard's plan to dump this budget cut onto the backs of the towns poorest residents.
    But Dart is one of how many business owners that have actually gone to a selectboard meeting to indicate opposition to the plan? Darned few, if there are even any others.
    Lee has the right idea and is obviously a thoughtful person, but if you don't tell the selectboard what you think, your silence is just as good as support for their scheme.

    ---
    Capitalism:
    1691 - 2008
    RIP
    Boycotting all of downtown?
    Authored by: pjmelton on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 09:09 PM GMT+5
    I can agree with you to a certain extent, but OTH I have done nothing myself except mouth off on iBratt and write an apparently ignored email to Dick. I hope you're not planning to boycott me. :)

    ---
    Paula
    Boycotting all of downtown?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 09:35 PM GMT+5
    I think you've done more than most. I'm doubling my patronage.

    ---
    Capitalism:
    1691 - 2008
    RIP
    Boycotting all of downtown?
    Authored by: pjmelton on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 09:46 PM GMT+5
    Great! My address is in the phone book.

    ---
    Paula
    What about the New Yorkers?
    Authored by: paulgardner on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 07:25 AM GMT+5
    Unless you can get the foreigners (from NYC, etc) to join the boycott, I don't see where it will do much good.
    What about the New Yorkers?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 11:39 AM GMT+5
    Visitors may come here and spend a couple hundred dollars shopping downtown, but they don't do that week after week. It's the locals that businesses depend on for their bread & butter, whether or not they recognize it or admit it. Any downtown business that thought it could survive only on tourist dollars would soon be gone.

    But to be clear, I'm not really saying everyone should boycott downtown businesses - especially if you live in Brattleboro. I'm just saying I don't shop there much anymore, and there's a reason why I don't.

    ---
    Freemarket economy: A socialist system in which workers' earnings are redistributed to affluent citizens.
    Going off the subject?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 08:32 AM GMT+5
    Spud,
    I could understand if you were just "okay" with it, but I don't see how anyone can be "totally okay" with it.
    I don't miss the naked idiots downtown (although, really, who cares?) But I just can't be totally okay with the town's legislative body taking away freedoms, even if they're freedoms you have the good sense not to use. It seems like a major solution to what was a minor irritant at best. There wasn't even a public referendum on it.
    To me it's just a smaller and more local version of the erosion of freedom and rights under Bush. Just because suspending Habeas Corpus served a purpose for national security and I haven't been personally affected by the law doesn't mean I'm okay with it.

    But it was more than the ordinance... it was that the response to this erosion of freedoms was non-existent. There are plenty of self-identified liberals and progressives in Bratt ready to talk the talk, but few willing to walk the walk. When such an ordinance was imposed in another town nearby, the freedom-loving residents of the town took matters into their own hands and got it overturned. I remember Bratt residents expressing shock that a nearby town could be so backward as to enact a law against nudity. Apparently they were unmoved to act in their own town.

    ---
    Freemarket economy: A socialist system in which workers' earnings are redistributed to affluent citizens.
    Going off the subject?
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 08:44 AM GMT+5
    There were a handful of us who spoke against it. The SB ignored us in favor of a "vocal minority", half of which didn't live in Brattleboro. I made a speech that fell on deaf ears, as did Spoon, Grotke, Timmy and others. The two chief official lefties on the SB voted against us.
    Going off the subject?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 11:31 AM GMT+5
    Yes, those were the few, alright.

    ---
    Freemarket economy: A socialist system in which workers' earnings are redistributed to affluent citizens.
    Going off the subject?
    Authored by: SpudHill on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 09:32 AM GMT+5
    I see it as a health and security issue. Most towns have ordinances of this sort. The personal freedom argument got pretty much lost on me when someone tried to go into a restaurant nude and then the old guy with the fannypack showed up from Arizona or whatever state he was from.

    I think that someone who would purposefully walk around nude in a town (and I don't really include the local kids as that seemed more like a prank to me) obviously has a few screws loose and anyone with a few screws loose could be a danger. In fact there have been incidences in NYC where young children have been attacked by mentally ill people on the street and injured so the personal freedom argument can and does work both ways. As residents and business owners we have a right also to be able to conduct our business downtown without having to contend with nudity or idiots who would travel far distances just to display their nude body parts on our streets and might therefore be a little wacky.

    I think the personal freedom argument is weak in this case. I see it as setting a minimal standard that adheres to a common definition of acceptability. Clothing should not be optional, if the health department requires shoes they should also require pants, someone's bare bottom on a seat is a far greater health risk for me if I come along and sit on the same seat.

    And I'm not by anyone's standards particularly prudish but I get why the SB felt the ordinance was needed.
    Going off the subject?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 11:17 AM GMT+5
    It would be a stretch for me to see it as a health and safety issue.

    I agree that anyone who would think it's okay to walk around nude might have a screw loose. In the town here I went to high school we used to have a guy who wore a spiderman costume and thought he could climb walls. And another one who walked around with a pipe and a captain's hat who thought he was Popeye. Nobody thought that banning costumes was a reasonable way to control people with loose screws who "might" be dangerous.

    In fact, it's not a crime to walk around with a screw loose. I do it all the time. And who knows, I might snap at any moment. ;-)

    I agree that restaurant owners shouldn't allow nude people in their establishments. You don't need an ordinance for that. Dogs, which are also allowed in public, are generally not allowed in restaurants. (Except for guide animals. I suppose someone might claim they have a "guide nudist.") Shirts and shoes are routinely required in restaurants and stores, and no ordinance has ever been required to enforce it. It would seem easy enough to add "pants" to the list without resorting to a town-wide ban.

    I want to say this very carefully, because I don't mean to suggest that you are a relgious fanatic or a bigot or that you are in any way like one. You know I agree with you almost 100% of the time on everything except this. Please don't take offense, I'm just trying to tell you how I see this.
    With that caveat:

    I think the argument that you have a right not to have to contend with nudity is not far removed from a similar argument used by opponents of civil rights, civil unions, and gay marriage - that they have a right not to be confronted with something they don't like. Not that I'm conflating nudity with civil rights or any other rights, I just don't like the argument that we have a right not to be offended, or that offensiveness is a reason to curb personal freedoms.

    Admittedly, I am a bit of a fanatic about personal freedoms, and this comes from my contact with totalitarian societies (in my deepest, darkest past). I concede that there are freedoms we have to give up to live in a society. But it would be hard to convince me that, in this case, society was in any real danger.

    ---
    Freemarket economy: A socialist system in which workers' earnings are redistributed to affluent citizens.
    Definitely off the subject, but interesting anyway
    Authored by: pjmelton on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 11:39 AM GMT+5
    I think it is not so much having a screw loose that is problematic for some, but having a particular SORT of screw loose. I think reasonable people can disagree about whether it is inherently lewd or sexually intimidating to walk around naked in a crowded downtown. I don't happen to think so, but I guess I can see how some people would, and how it might be difficult to legally define the difference between simple nudity and some leering sicko's indecent exposure.

    So while nudity alone does not seem to me to infringe on anyone's freedoms, making people wear clothes in a limited section of town does not seem to me like a major infringement of nudists' freedoms either. Still, I was a little sad that the ordinance passed. Not because I want to see senior citizens downtown wearing nothing but fanny packs, but because I like the idea of living in a place where events like that are considered blasé. Not to get all 70s about it or anything, but our society has some really weird hangups about the simplest bodily functions. The way we treat the perpetrators of the most banal sex crimes - even after they have completed their sentences - the exact same way we treat child rapists is indicative of this. The whole thing brings Whitman to mind:

    I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contained;

    I stand and look at them long and long.

    They do not sweat and whine about their condition;

    They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins;

    They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God;

    Not one is dissatisfied -- not one is demented with the mania of owning things;

    Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago;

    Not one is respectable or industrious over the whole earth.


    And, I would add, not one freaks out when he happens to catch a glimpse of another one's nipple or butt crack.

    ---
    Paula
    Going off the subject?
    Authored by: SpudHill on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 02:56 PM GMT+5
    I don't think necessarily that society was at danger....and I must admit that I myself walk around all the time with a few screws loose and have for some time. But I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one issue, I just can't make the stretch to a civil rights issue.

    We all wear clothes and we can all just keep 'em on when downtown, now I could care less what you do in the privacy of your home and/or favorite nudie camp or swimming hole but please not downtown. It's not offensive it's just too darn distracting.

    And I love costumes and have been known to have worn what some might have thought were costumes in the past although I considered the outfits my daily wear....however, I keep them on....so I guess I'm okay with walking around with a few screws loose as well as a costume or two but just keep the dang pants on....

    Did we need the ordinance....I don't know for sure but it seems to have worked...of course the novelty and shock value could have worn off and that would be the reason....but I just can't drum up any upset over the ordinance....now if they try to outlaw costumes you're talking another story
    Going off the subject?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 03:48 PM GMT+5
    ***I just can't make the stretch to a civil rights issue. ***
    It's definitely not a civil rights issue. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I thought it was. But yes, we can disagree without being at odds.

    ---
    Freemarket economy: A socialist system in which workers' earnings are redistributed to affluent citizens.
    Going off the subject?
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 04:04 PM GMT+5
    If they'd limited the ordinance to downtown, I wouldn't have bothered showing up. It's illegal to be nekked anywhere within the town limits now.
    Cutting my own services That's ok I made up for it.
    Authored by: mr.mike on Saturday, December 20 2008 @ 06:48 PM GMT+5
    Don't worry Brattleboro. I actually did some downtown shopping. It felt good to actually make up for Maus dropping out on you.

    ---
    It takes a union to bust a business.
    Big Labor 1830-2008
    RIP
    Stop the presses.
    Authored by: annikee on Saturday, December 20 2008 @ 07:16 PM GMT+5
    It really is a new day in America! mr.mike didn't shop in NH! :)
    Stop the presses.
    Authored by: pjmelton on Saturday, December 20 2008 @ 07:19 PM GMT+5
    Don't get too worked up. He probably just cashed in some bottles he bought in NH so he could buy some nuts and washers at Brown & Roberts.

    ---
    Paula
    Stop the presses.
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Saturday, December 20 2008 @ 07:21 PM GMT+5
    You don't think he really did, do you? I mean, there's tax on that stuff downtown.

    ---
    Freemarket economy: A socialist system in which workers' earnings are redistributed to affluent citizens.
    Stop the presses.
    Authored by: pjmelton on Saturday, December 20 2008 @ 07:53 PM GMT+5
    Good point. He probably used the fraudulently cashed-in bottle money to buy a pair of socks. No tax on clothes, even in Downtownistan.

    ---
    Paula
    Stop the presses.
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Saturday, December 20 2008 @ 10:41 PM GMT+5
    I think someone should tell mike that buying something some guy is selling out of the trunk of his Camaro in the Harmony Lot is not "shopping downtown."

    ---
    Freemarket economy: A socialist system in which workers' earnings are redistributed to affluent citizens.
    Stop the presses.
    Authored by: mr.mike on Sunday, December 21 2008 @ 05:19 PM GMT+5
    Look I'm a man of integrity. If I said I shopped downtown then I did.

    I bought a pair of boots at Sam's. Yes, there's no sales tax but I would have spent more going to Keene for those. What am I supposed to do. Buy them in N.H. because Vt dropped the sales tax on clothes? I know I know. We're supposed to tax clothing so the poor have to wear cardboard.

    I bought a couple of items of clothes for one of my kids and something for Mrs.Mike at Experienced Goods.

    I bought a few stocking stuffers at Dotties.

    Then went to Price Chopper and bought a gift certificate for a single mom with kids to give as a secret gift at church.

    Even put money in the parking garage.

    And I didn't use bottle/can money. I used hard earned money that came from N.H.

    ---
    It takes a union to bust a business.
    Big Labor 1830-2008
    RIP
    Stop the presses.
    Authored by: pjmelton on Monday, December 22 2008 @ 01:39 PM GMT+5
    I am just teasing you, mr. mike. When you show that you have a conscience about the bottle money, I'll stop teasing you. Don't they teach the Eighth Commandment at your church?

    ---
    Paula
    Stop the TAXES
    Authored by: mr.mike on Tuesday, December 23 2008 @ 10:19 PM GMT+5
    I only perform the duties handed down to me from our founding fathers.

    Give me liberty or give me death.

    ---
    It takes a union to bust a business.
    Big Labor 1830-2008
    RIP
    Stop the BS
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, December 24 2008 @ 12:45 PM GMT+5
    The "liberty" to steal from Vermont taxpayers was not included in that statement. I think your underlying philosophy is more like Nietzsche's than like the founders'. And why do you go to church if the words of Patrick Henry are more important to you than the words of the Bible?

    Also, I recall a certain important guy - can't remember his name now - said "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's." I believe it was in response to a question about taxes.

    Hey, isn't Jefferson on the nickel? I wonder what he would think about what you're doing. Maybe you should think about that next time you get deposit money from bottles you didn't pay a deposit on.

    Perhaps you think the theft of nickels from Vermont taxpayers is a small crime, and I suppose you are right. But once mr. mike decides that only mr. mike has the power to decide who can steal (mr. mike) and who cannot (anyone who makes mr. mike pay taxes), then mr. mike has made himself a kind of god.

    That's not part of the social contract I signed, mr. mike. Or should I say "ubermike"?

    ---
    Paula
    Stop casting stones
    Authored by: Win on Thursday, December 25 2008 @ 11:42 AM GMT+5
    There's also another verse that says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

    I think Mr.Mike should not cash those cans in either. What he should do is give them to someone who lives in N.H. that works in Vermont. Let them cash them in to make up for the parasitic taxes that those people pay every week and get nothing in return.
    Stop casting stones
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, December 25 2008 @ 01:38 PM GMT+5
    I thought NH was the land of milk and honey and there was no business or employment in Vermont? Now I'm confused.
    Who cast the first stone?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Thursday, December 25 2008 @ 11:19 PM GMT+5
    Of course, since we're talking about a bottle deposit and not a tax, the only ones who get cheated by this petty little children's game are businesses.
    It's amazing how much mr. mike and the other cranksters seem to hate Vermont businesses.

    ---
    Freemarket economy: A socialist system in which workers' earnings are redistributed to affluent citizens.
    Stop casting stones
    Authored by: pjmelton on Friday, December 26 2008 @ 10:35 AM GMT+5
    I am not the one who is claiming to be a Christian here. I am only asking mr. mike to judge his own actions according to his own beliefs.

    And while I have many sins, I do not brag about them on the Internets.

    ---
    Paula
    Stop casting stones
    Authored by: mr.mike on Friday, December 26 2008 @ 08:37 PM GMT+5
    Well Paula, I kinda like Win's idea. I figure I've got 2 choices. I take Win's advice and give the cans to those unfortunate souls that live in N.H. and work in Vermont. More than likely these are pople who worked their way up in one of the last few companies left and don't want to leave. They probably could use the money for retirement.

    Or I can just throw them out on the side of the road and let someone else cash them in. They won't have the burden of truth to know where they came from. And can benefit from the cash.

    ---
    It takes a union to bust a business.
    Big Labor 1830-2008
    RIP
    Very Dickensian
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Monday, December 22 2008 @ 02:14 PM GMT+5
    Then it is truly a Christmas miracle - iBrattleboro's own Mr. Scrooge has opened his heart and his wallet to the community. Almost enough to make me believe in that "Jesus" fellow.

    ---
    Freemarket economy: A socialist system in which workers' earnings are redistributed to affluent citizens.
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: Lee on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 08:04 AM GMT+5
    I have not heard a big outcry from my fellow business owners about this issue. What doesn't get mentioned much is that our businesses got a lot of tax relief during the last reappraisal. Our home values in town went way up during the reappraisal and our commercial property values went way down....which means I am paying lower property taxes for my business property today than I was a few years ago (although I am partially making it up in my payments for my house).

    Now, if you really want to get a heated discussion going we could talk about the insane personal property tax that businesses with lots of equipment have to pay to the town.... but that is for a different thread.
    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service - Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, December 19 2008 @ 11:12 AM GMT+5
    "What doesn't get mentioned much is that our businesses got a lot of tax relief during the last reappraisal. Our home values in town went way up during the reappraisal and our commercial property values went way down....which means I am paying lower property taxes for my business property today than I was a few years ago".

    I never heard this talked about anywhere. I was under the impression that bizes have had ever-skyrocketing taxes!

    Selectboard Meeting Notes: Selectboard Mulls Cutting Trash Service — Citizens Push Back
    Authored by: Truman on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 09:34 AM GMT+5
    I'd like to know where the board gets the idea that taxes must not be increased--no matter what the cost. It just doesn't make sense.

    Do you suppose this is just easier for them than making another type of cut in the budget?

    How 'bout a compromise? The trash contract (I would hope) is based on how many tons are collected. If the town mandated recycling--by forcing us to use clear bags and rejecting any with recyclable items inside--that would cut down on the tonnage and therefore the contract costs. We'd still get curbside pickup, without having to resort to pay-per-throw and we'd increase recycling too.
    TRUMAN 'S CLEAR SOLUTION
    Authored by: Rolf on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 10:35 AM GMT+5
    Excellent idea Truman.

    Clear plastic bags (preferably recyclable) are the best idea I have heard so far.

    Any bag that has a recyclables in it, does not get picked up.

    Right now, if you try putting construction waste out on the curb it is likewise rejected by the trash collectors.

    This idea would probably result in much less trash and a higher rate of recycling.

    My guesses are that some people would rather throw their trash over an embankment than sort their recycling,

    but probably this is a small number of people who would throw thier trash over embankments if it saved them hundreds of dollars.

    Hmmmm.

    Of course, sometimes people like to make items "go away"

    without anyone seeing what it was that they were consuming.

    This idea probably would result in a lot of Playboy and Penthouse magazines being burned instead of being thrown away,

    but besides that, what drawbacks are there?

    I can't see any drawbacks that would get in the way of trying this.

    We are supposed to be recycling anyway; this plan merely makes it more onerous to be a scofflaw.

    Rolf
    This will never work.
    Authored by: pjmelton on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 10:39 AM GMT+5
    You guys are forgetting something. This idea is WAY too reasonable. Also, it does not include any tax breaks for the wealthiest 1 percent of residents.

    ---
    Paula
    This will never work.
    Authored by: Rolf on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 10:47 AM GMT+5
    But

    but

    but . . .


    So, aside from that, can you poke any holes in Truman's bag ?

    I am impressed.

    Makes me want to look up all of Truman's comments to see if there are any other gems out there recorded on old iBrattleboro posts.

    Which leads to 2 questions which I acknlwedge as being comletely off topic

    1) who is Truman ?

    2) Who is Maus ?

    Rolf
    This will never work.
    Authored by: pjmelton on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 11:09 AM GMT+5
    The clear bag thing became popular in the 90s; I remember hearing about it on NPR. A lot of people didn't like the invasion-of-privacy bit, but a lot of towns did it anyway. The idea that your trash is private does not hold up in court, and it is an illusion outside of court as well. This is why god made shredders.

    I would be curious to know how many towns still use the clear bags.

    The real problem seems to be that Sondag wanted to push recycling to save money on trash, and the idio - er, IDEOlogues - on the board seized the opportunity as a way to save businesses money instead of creating incentives to recycle. If they can pretend they are cutting regular people's expenses by making a token tax cut as well, all the better! Maybe they will get re-elected for that!

    All this is reminding me of last year, the night before town meeting, when I read Chris's interviews with all the SB candidates. Corum didn't even bother to participate, which was just gross, and Allen said he had to look up the word "sustainability" and then made some comment about how the sustainability of businesses was what interested him. That and his comment that he "couldn't wait to leave this godforsaken place" pretty much decided my vote for me. Too bad the people who voted for these guys didn't read iBratt first....

    If the town wants people to recycle, they should have curbside recycling every week. If clear bags help, I'd be in favor of that too, but moving to once a week would be a huge improvement for most people.

    ---
    Paula
    Sorry, that was an interview Lise did, not Chris.
    Authored by: pjmelton on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 11:23 AM GMT+5
    Here is a really nice quote from Allen, just before election day:

    "This should be looked at as a volunteer position. If, as some board members have stated, it requires 25 to 35 hours per week of their time, THEN YOU ARE MICROMANAGING and we should be listening to the department heads and our town manager, not the vocal minority, and make decisions that have an effect on the majority of the citizens."

    So, is he listening to what Sondag tells him, that we should create incentives to increase recycling and reduce trash, or is he listening to a vocal minority? Or, rather, a sotto voce minority? No one, as far as I can tell, is crying out for lower taxes, or for lower business expenses. Including the town manager and department heads whose opinion he said he was just planning to rubber-stamp. Oh, but that was MONTHS ago!!!

    ---
    Paula
    Sorry, that was an interview Lise did, not Chris.
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 11:58 AM GMT+5
    "This should be looked at as a volunteer position. If, as some board members have stated, it requires 25 to 35 hours per week of their time, THEN YOU ARE MICROMANAGING and we should be listening to the department heads and our town manager, not the vocal minority, and make decisions that have an effect on the majority of the citizens."

    In other words, don't listen to anyone because you can do what you want when you're an SB member.

    Reminds me of that old Bowie song, "When You're a Boy".
    Maus is Maus
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 07:26 PM GMT+5
    Haven't you seen my picture? Just click on my username.

    ---
    Capitalism:
    1691 - 2008
    RIP
    A Chink in the Plastic
    Authored by: spinoza on Thursday, December 18 2008 @ 01:15 PM GMT+5
    I don't know about you urbanites, but where I live(on the outskirts) the crows decimate plastic garbage bags, and have some kind of deal with the critters, who then scatter the detritus as far as they can from the original pick-up spot.

    As much as the unsavory unsanitary prospects of the current proposal bum me out, I'd not be too psyched with a solution that has me either holding vigil over the crows, or doing my own pick-up from the picked over unpicked-up ripped bags.
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