Sunday, June 28 2009 @ 06:29 AM GMT+5 Contributed by: JoanneN
I know i have not been on here in a few days due to personal reasons, but I did not see a link to this article which was an answer back to the Twelve tribe commons article. I also wantto say I have met and spoke with about five different people from 12 tribes and they have never tried to recruit me and have treated me with respect and kindness knowing full well how different my beleif system is from theirs. I also know a man in town who used to be a member nad left of his own free will without sneaking off, abd he still speaks with them even though he is no longer a member.
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12 Tribes Response Article
Authored by: Wantastiquet on Sunday, June 28 2009 @ 10:22 AM GMT+5
Does anyone know when they are planning on reopening The Common Ground Restaurant? They purchased it awhile back and there doesn't seem to be any sign of it being reopened. It's a nice space on Elliot St and should be used.
Authored by: SK-B on Sunday, June 28 2009 @ 05:21 PM GMT+5
I read Clara Rose Thornton's article, and the rebuttal by Sharon Brosseau, and found that both articles seemed to leave out important points. Although both pieces fell short of journalistic standards, the relative magnitude of omissions between the two articles was not equal.
I have known Twelve Tribes members Melevav and Niflaah for two or three years, and I recently attended a three-session poetry workshop with Clara Rose. I have been treated with kindness by these friends from the Twelve Tribes, and I also found Clara Rose to be an warm and accepting person.
I do not expect that I need to ostracize one "side" in order to continue to be accepted by the other. In challenging some of what I read, I am simply asking for clarification.
In the article criticizing the Twelve Tribes, Ms. Thornton did not explain how she knows that:
___________________
"Yoneq is a textbook definition of a cult leader who lives in luxury on his several private properties while his minions slave away in the cramped communities without pay, offering all of their worldly assets to the Tribes upon joining. He stays in obscurity most of the time but occasionally hands down a new law that 'came to him' through divine intervention."
____________________
This is a description of a corrupt and exploitative leader. Yet Clara Rose Thornton did not explain where she got this information, or how she knows it is true. An opinion piece must follow the same rules of press ethics as any other piece, and certainly a potentially defamatory statement which is made as an undocumented assertion is unworthy of publication in The Commons.
The second gap which jumped out at me is less important, but curious. Clara Rose Thornton described her escape, but did not explain why she needed to give a cover story and sneak off. Why not just say, "Goodbye, I am leaving?"
The rebuttal, in my opinion, was weak because it avoided the main point: the offensive racist teachings which are at the core of Ms. Thornton's revulsion at this group.
___________________
"A man came and sat next to me. He cheerfully offered his hand and asked if I’d ever been down South.
'Oh, yes,' I replied. “I have a lot of family in Virginia, Georgia, and Texas.'
'Really? Well, you should visit our farm down in Tennessee. Lovely people,' he said, quickly tacking on: "You know, the Twelve Tribes believes that the South was right in the Civil War.'
I stared.
He continued. 'How much better off were the blacks in servitude, learning about God and lifting their curse, than in the jungles of Africa?'"
___________________
Other than mentioning that The Twelve Tribes welcomes people from all backgrounds and has African American members, "who are respected leaders, prophets, and teachers," Sharon Brosseau's rebuttal completely ignores Clara Rose Thornton's account of this shocking encounter, and her expose of the racist teachings which encourage such brutal disregard of an other's humanity.
Several times Brousseau quotes children to make points, but she avoids mentioning the eight year old whom Thornton heard refer to her as "a Châmite."
As fantastic as it sounds to allege that the Twelve Tribes teach that the South and slavery was right in the Civil War; from a conversation I had with one of my friends from the Twelve Tribes, I know that it is not a fabricated story.
Much of the disagreements seem to be garden variety misunderstandings which become magnified when there is a deeper, unresolved issue. While it is important to understand the contrasting perspectives about clothes, music, food, work, etc; the opportunity to rebut was squandered by focusing almost entirely on these secondary issues, and only touching briefly on the core issue - racism.
Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, June 29 2009 @ 12:24 AM GMT+5
It's not just racism. You forgot the anti-Semitic writings and sexism....and of course the explanation is always that it's all there in the bible. And then the counter that "we have members who are .....(fill in the blank)....." which is supposed to make okay the fact that their literature and writings are chock full of racism, et al. Suppressive beliefs that are supposedly backed up by biblical documentation. It's an old tactic and not just a Southern one.
Authored by: JoanneN on Monday, June 29 2009 @ 01:55 AM GMT+5
I have to say that they have never shown any racism in my presence if they did I would tell them they were wrong to think this way, but I also disagree with them on religion anyways. I disagree with a lot of people though about many things. I am not friends with 12 tribes I just do not wish to persecute there way of living any more than I would want someone to do the same to me. I know how it feels and since unlike some of the local churches they do not try to make me a member and accept me for who I am I have to do the same.
Racism is wrong in any form however people have the right to the freedom of their beliefs as long as they do not act out violently on them. I have someone in my everyday life that I care for very much but they are against almost everything I believe in. This is a free country so they can choose to believe it to be honest this person never has a nice thing to say about Jewish, black , or gay people. This person drives me nuts. However he is terribly kind hearted in many other ways. We agree to disagree and go about our daily lives.
Hate towards the Twelve Tribes is not the answer to anything. Hate simply builds more hate.
---
People who fight fire with fire usually end up
with ashes.
~Abigail Van Buren
To love a person is to learn the song that is in
their heart and to
si
Authored by: SK-B on Monday, June 29 2009 @ 02:54 AM GMT+5
JoanneN's admonition againt hating the Twelve Tribes misses is fine, and I certainly understand what she is saying about loving people in your life regardless of their beliefs.
Nonetheless, there is nothing wrong with expressing our revulsion at racist teachings, even if those teachings are delivered in a soft spoken manner. I wonder whether JoanneN is surprised that a young woman with African ancestry felt dismayed when she heard a child refer to her as "a Châmite?"
Authored by: JoanneN on Monday, June 29 2009 @ 03:25 AM GMT+5
dismayed I do not think would be the proper word. I feel for her as well as them. If i had been in her situation i would have told them how disturbing and upsetting it was ot me and how it made me fell than I would have packed my bags and been on my way.
I also agree freedom of speech is just as important and i certainly would not tell anyone they do not have the right to say what they are feeling. I just do not want to see a Witchhunt (I guess would be the word to use although I very much dislike this word.) against anyone.
---
People who fight fire with fire usually end up
with ashes.
~Abigail Van Buren
To love a person is to learn the song that is in
their heart and to
si
Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, June 29 2009 @ 03:39 AM GMT+5
The exactly refers to SK's comments before this.
Who's on a witchhunt....let's just get the facts out about what these people really believe...that is not a witchhunt.
Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, June 29 2009 @ 03:37 AM GMT+5
Exactly.
This is not about hate, it's about clarifying what this group says in their own writings. What your belief system is, what you teach your children, what you hold in your heart is what determines whether you're nice or not. In order to join a group like this you would have to subscribe to their teachings.
There are plenty of people in this world who are "nice" for nefarious and evil reasons in order win trust. Personally I do not find anything in this groups writings "nice" and would question the judgment of anyone who would join such a group. And it would be irresponsible to let posts go out in support of this group without countering these claims of "niceness."
If these are their beliefs then it would follow that if ever given a position of power these people would undoubtedly support slavery, persecution based on religion and suppression of women. There are far too many examples of groups and governments that have taken these steps. This is not about hate, it's about being informed as to who these people who want to be a part of our community really are and where they really stand on these issues.
A few links from earlier on IBrat and statements by the groups founder.
"The Tribe believes that it is the biblical destiny of blacks to be slaves and servants, that this is what God wants and it is the blacks responsibility to be subservient to whites. Also that intermarriage is sinful and against
God's will.
From the Twelve Tribes teachings: (Cham refers to Blacks) (elipses refer
to cut material, there was just so much that was illuminating that I
couldn't print it all out. Take a look at the links.
"If slaves were mistreated in the days before the civil war, it was because
of their unsubmissiveness. Even if the master was unreasonable, the
slaves were to bear up under the yoke of slavery (1 Peter 2:18-3:1). This
is Châm's(blacks) discipline that he has been under for 4000 years. The
word said that Châm(blacks) was a servant of Shem and it is God's
ordained word. When you try to set Châm(blacks) free, he gets worse and
worse in his own soul. .....Man cannot change the social order that YHWH
has established (Philemon). There is a distinction that YHWH has
established in the three races of man. He did not call for men to
intermarry. This is against His order. He wants the distinction to exist.
....Slaves were responsible for how they responded to their masters and
masters were responsible for how they treated their slaves. There have
been many revolts in history. There is a principle here. Some people in
societies who were slaves were useful as slaves. To set certain slaves free
would do nothing but degrade society. Châm(blacks) was meant to be a
servant to his brothers, Shem and Yapheth. He was to help them, assist
them."
Links Provided Earlier
For more information on The Twelve Tribes "Religion" please visit The following Web sites:
Authored by: JacobEberhardt on Tuesday, June 30 2009 @ 01:21 PM GMT+5
My name is Jacob Eberhardt and I can be reached at 530-554-2540. Upon hearing about the dispute between Tim Kroehler and Jeff Potter concerning the authenticity of the Twelve Tribe teaching quotations, I called Mr. Kroehler first and then Mr. Potter.
Approximately 2003, I took a trip from NH to Vista, Ca to meet Yoneq after overcoming cancer in order to resolve past issues. I stayed for a time in Vista and Yoneq had me flown to Arcadia, Fl. In the process of deciding to return to my covenant with the TT, it was noticeable to me how clothing was used to condition visitors, teachings I had heard given by Yoneq in Vista took a legalistic bend when I heard them in Florida, members telling me my prayers were not heard when Yoneq had said something quite different concerning me at gatherings in Vista. I was allowed computer access in Arcadia and came across the digital library of teachings the elders possessed and recognized them from my days around the Print Shop in Providence RI in 19997, when I was a covenanted member. Upon reading the teaching "Execution of Justice", which describes Yoneq calling a little girl over and asking for a pair of scissors to cut off her thumb because she would not obey him,.... I realized much of the child abuse that had occurred in the Community, i.e. Jones children, Zadok's children, etc., was based on a legalistic view and absolute adherence to Yoneq's teachings. I left the Community forever. Before leaving, I took the opportunity to copy 15 - 20 teachings I thought imperative because I realized no one had ever made them available to outsiders and considered it beneficial for their understanding. I posted these on the Internet. Soon after an ex-elder who wished to remain anonymous because they had family still in the Community sent me a disc with the bulk of the catalog you find on www.twelvetribesteachings.com, including the catalog of teachings available there. I posted these teaching without alteration because I wished to present an objective resource for people to read the teachings that motivate the TT and that people could make an honest decision before deciding to visit.
I am reviewing the teaching in question and can verify it's authenticity. Originally, I presented these teachings to the Religious Movements website at UVA/University of Waterloo; they could not post them because they are in electronic format, but encouraged me that they are a valuable resource for researchers.
It was only a matter of time before a professional writer outside Academia or an axe to grind (pro or con) documented their stay in the Community. This piece is an accurate representation of a visitors experience, especially one who had no extensive knowledge they were walking into a closed religious sect.
Lying about WWOOF.
The value of reproduction to the Community.
Sharpness when ways are not their own.
Preaching out of turn and without depth of understanding.
Which brings me to Mr. Kroehler. I called him before calling Mr. Potter. He treated me indignantly, with suspect, and requested I turn myself in for theft of electronic material. I called him to offer a chance for him to explain his issue with the quote and to avoid embarrassing him and the Community. Many times the left hand does not know what the right hand does in the Community.
I am not sure Mr. Kroehler represents the Community in this matter. A few years back Hakam (Eddie Wiseman), generally respected to be the number 2 man in the TT, met me in Burlington, VT. At first he was angry because it is believed in the Community that the teachings can not be understood properly outside of their Spirit; Yet when I explained myself, he understood, walked me home, and hugged me wishing me that I find what I am looking for. I told Hakam, I was tired of exposing the Community. Someone else recreated the Twelve Tribes Teachings site. From looking over the site, many of us ex-members could vouch for the authenticity of these posted teachings. Hakam also expressed that the Communitiy's eldership did not have issue with them being posted, just that people outside the community do not have the same spirit that the teachings were intended.
Mr. Kroehler would better serve the TT by taking full credit for their beliefs and express that how the salvation Yahshua has offered the Community has removed racism from their midst. Love draws people, and defending a theology through technicalities drives people away.
The Community hides their sin while judging those outside their covenant. Their numbers are decreasing. The sad thing is: They could have been a Light, rather than perpetrating US and THEM.
There is a vast difference you will encounter between the average member grateful for the salvation they are receiving and those responsible for enforcing the 'Annointing' or whom have been there from the beginning. You will not hear about the VERY REAL hurt occurring behind the closed doors like the fact that:
Yoneq's (Eugene Spriggs) wife Ha 'Emeq (Marsha Spriggs) had an affair with a teen/young adult man and hid it for years while others were 'sent away' and separated from their loved ones and 'sent away' penniless after years of dedication for far less infractions.
Cases of sexual abuse that the Tribes hide in their midst because they believe their judgment as a priestly nation (Israel) takes precedent over the nations (US) law. Read between the lines in this article published on the TT official site, http://www.twelvetribes.com/controversies/re-sexual-abuse.html
If people do their research, they will find a closed sect that operates according to their own laws regardless of US law. Many members benefit greatly and many members become scarred for life.
Authored by: JacobEberhardt on Tuesday, June 30 2009 @ 01:28 PM GMT+5
Sharon's and the TT website response to the article are the usual response. Express their open door policy, 'we mean no harm', yet do not take full responsibility for their views or the effect it has on others. And blame others.
US and THEM is the foundation, though they rarely say it outright.
Read all the materials... you will find a common thread.
Authored by: Genie on Tuesday, June 30 2009 @ 01:39 PM GMT+5
I find the TT's sexism equally as backward and offensive as their racism. The subordination of African-Americans and the subordination of women go hand in hand: they both lay in the same sweet garden bed of ignorance.
