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    Alcohol    
    Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 05:03 AM GMT+4
    Contributed by: Anonymous

    OpinionRecently the owner of Adagio's Trattoria was quoted in an article in ibrattleboro

    http://www.ibrattleboro.com/article.php/20090703001550991/print

    as saying,

    " that people had been told at the time not to complain because the kids hanging out in Harmony Lot were “nice kids” and should be allowed to be there. But, she said, “They don’t deserve it. None of those people deserve it. It is too dangerous. Keep everyone out. We have too many drug dealers in our bars.”

    Besides the ridiculous unfair and harmful lumping of all kids in the Harmony lot into one despised group

    the horrible irony, of course, is that bars are legalized drug dealing establishments. Alcohol is the drug most associated with violent behavior.

    In an article in the Rutland Herald

    http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20090616/NEWS04/906160357/1003/NEWS02


    Detective Eric Johnson was quoted as saying


    ""In speaking with Andrew Sheets I could smell an odor of alcohol from his breath."

    (Sheets may also may have done cocaine the night before.)

    Andrew Sheets is the man accused of killing David Snow on Elliot.

    One of the things that Brattleboro needs is a zero tolerance policy for public drunkenness where it occurs the most, on Elliot Street.

    What would this look like?

    At least one officer on foot patrols near the bars on Elliot Street, every night, He could walk from Addagio in the corner of the Harmony lot, the to the Weathervane, then up past Metroplolis and Kiplings and MacNeils. Every night. One officer for the short distance between the 5 bars. 1 officer for 5 bars every night. This seems an almost meager ratio but it would be a start.

    On Friday night after the animation festival, I walked down Elliot Street and observed drunken people yelling at each other in front of Metropolis.

    "That mexican, he's the one that was bothering me!" called out an apparently drunken woman. (I did not administer an alcohol breath test). "Don't you start fatty" the gentleman replied.

    Harmless stuff? Maybe. On a different night I saw a man get kicked to the ground on Elliot Street. If you want a little light reading check the police reports and search on the term "Elliot Street" and "alcohol."

    No fight ensued on this night. But everyone knows that Elliot Street is where violence occurs, and everyone knows that it is no coincidence that this is where the booze is sold. No policeman was there to witness or put a damper on this type of hostility from escalating the way it sometimes does.


    At least one other death besides that of David Snow's has resulted on Elliot Street, outside a bar. Numerous assaults by drunken patrons are on record.

    If we are going to allow alcohol to be sold, (and we are) it needs to be policed properly, and vigorously and proactively.

    If you go to the site

    http://www.brattleboropolice.org/press2008.html

    and search on the term Elliot Street, you will notice a pattern. Over and over, our police are "responding to a report" of a fight, or an altercation. It appears to be usually reactive, not proactive.

    If foot patrols on Elliot street had been present on Elliot Street at the time of our only murder this year, would David Snow still be alive?

    We can't know. But we can try to act to prevent violence.

    One officer. 5 bars. Many, many incidents.

    If you are drunk and yelling or otherwise appear intoxicated in violation of the law, it's time for a breath test from a an officer who is always nearby between the hours when bars are selling their product.

    Seems obvious.

    Rolf

     

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  • Alcohol | 36 comments | Create New Account
    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: JoanneN on Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 10:48 AM GMT+4
    I agree the problem comes more from drunks than anything. If your going to crackdown on something crack down on the bars at night.

    ---
    People who fight fire with fire usually end up
    with ashes.
    ~Abigail Van Buren

    To love a person is to learn the song that is in
    their heart and to
    si
    Alcohol
    Authored by: annikee on Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 02:10 PM GMT+4
    It's ridiculously obvious, which may be why the issue is being ignored.



    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: HowardP on Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 03:39 PM GMT+4
    Bars and Restaurants pay taxes and employ local citizens. Drug dealers
    don't pay taxes and really don't employ anyone. OK Einstein's,who do
    you think the Police should or will crack down on?
    Alcohol
    Authored by: George Tirebiter on Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 05:46 PM GMT+4
    They need to crack down on overage drinking.

    ---
    "Oh, was it a joke, you mean?"
    - John Cage
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Hilda on Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 06:01 PM GMT+4
    What is striking to me is how the police LEFT the drunken man in their
    cruiser, to follow up on his (probably false) story about being robbed.
    THEN he got in a fight and killed a guy. (i read this in the commons, i
    think)
    Ive lived on Harmony lot and frequented Eliot street over the years
    and I cannot EVER remember seeing a policeman on foot at night
    there. Just a weekend officer or two walking/biking downtown would
    do a lot of prevention. Park a cruiser there even! Especially around
    closing time at the bars. Contrast that lack of uniformed presence with
    the fact that I cannot go into Brattleboro without seeing those
    metermaids circling around. What area of town is more important to
    protect than the downtown on wknds? Where exactly ARE the police if
    not there?
    Alcohol
    Authored by: annikee on Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 06:35 PM GMT+4
    Obviously, Einstein, the skaters and teenagers. That's a no-brainer.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: tomaidh on Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 06:23 PM GMT+4
    Many, many incidents. If you are drunk and yelling or otherwise appear intoxicated in violation of the law, it's time for a breath test from a an officer who is always nearby between the hours when bars are selling their product. Seems obvious.

    Seems reasonable, too. Prevention trumps punishment.

    BTW, People are forced outside in order to smoke, so they hang out for a while, increasing the likelihood for trouble. Isn't hanging out a synonym for loitering?

    So a cop has to work at night? So he gets overtime? So a murder is prevented? I don't see a problem here.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Maxwell_Edison on Monday, July 06 2009 @ 07:11 AM GMT+4
    Perhaps a smoking ban is an answer. Prohibit all smoking on streets, sidewalks and parking lots in the downtown business district, similar to what they enacted in Berkeley, CA, last year.

    Story: Berkeley Expands Smoking Ban (KCBS)

    I won't go into the obvious health benefits of such a restriction, but I imagine it would reduce the noise level, and cut down the amount of litter on our streets and sidewalks.

    Disclosure: I am a smoker, and have been for the past 24 years (since I was 12). I live downtown. I would strongly support such a ban.

    Peace,
    Max
    Alcohol
    Authored by: jayd65 on Friday, July 17 2009 @ 04:08 PM GMT+4
    Thanks Max
    Alcohol
    Authored by: david_williamson on Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 06:51 PM GMT+4
    Rolf,

    While I see your point, I am annoyed by the balance of your argument and the lumping in of Adagio, which is a restaurant, with the Elliot Steet Bars.

    First of all, you are talking about two separate issues:

    1. The presence of youths who present - at their most passive - a disregard for their surroundings; and at their worst, an aggressive threat to supporters of downtown business.

    and

    2. The adverse effects of alcohol in a segmented area of Brattleboro.

    Simply put, I have been harrased on numerous occasions while passing through he Harmony Parking lot - either on foot, or in my car. Many other times I have dealt with the passive aggression of youths who behave as though the parking lot is their personal park. Let me give you an example... two nights ago, I turned into the lot to find a large group of young people playing hacky sack... they were in the middle of the lot and did not even acknowledge the presence of a 6000 pound truck driving towards them. I then waited... want waited... as other cars, driving the other direction, passed. Then I pulled into the other side of the lot to pass them. At no point did any of these people appear to even notice me. Let me be clear here: even if you take the position that pedestrians have the right of way, there is a basic human instinct to self preservation that this children - and what else can they be called if they lack this instinct - seem to be missing.

    Another time I was accosted by a group of 10 - 15 of these young people yelling at me. They were saying they would f&&k me up... kick my ass... etc.. Now, here's the thing: I don't even know these kids! I don't know why they would be yelling at a guy who is just going to his car on his way home from work, but I can tell you that it scared me, and I'm 6'4", 250lbs... the tourists from New York who had just gotten out of their car, got right back in and left. The older couple who were walking towards their car suddenly began to move at what is probably about the fastest they could.

    Frankly, I'm tired of hearing people talk like these are polite little kiddies with nowhere to go. There may be a few that are nice, but in the end, what we're talking about is a VERY detrimental population of our town that is not being dealt with. If we want to talk about laws, I think its questionable whether people under the age of 18 should be hanging around in a parking lot after 10:00 PM. (I don't think they should be there at all, as its not a PARK, but lets start somewhere.) I mean after all, where is the parenting here?

    The fact is, if we want to present our town as a place full of rough people who will kick your ass because its Tuesday, we're doing a pretty good job. And if anyone is wondering why downtown businesses are closing up and we have empty store fronts, I suggest we look first at how we present ourselves. I know many people in Brattleboro feel antagonistic towards tourists, and have no problem showing it, but in the end, we don't have much else. I'd like to see us start by cleaning up that lot, giving the kids an appropriate place to go, and sending the message that we appreciate the business of anyone who wants to frequent our businesses.

    As far as bar fights in front of Metropolis goes... yea, you sure are right about that. I'm not sure who half those people are, but I won't set foot in that bar as I personally feel it is dangerous. Still, its inappropriate for you to lump Adagio, which is a very nice restaurant, in with bar fights in front of Metropolis. The owner of Adagio was stating a fact - the same that I stated above: that the Harmony PARKING lot is not good for business in this town.
    Alcohaul
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 08:43 PM GMT+4
    What did the police do when you called them on each of these occasions?

    ---
    We Rock!
    Alcohaul
    Authored by: david_williamson on Saturday, July 11 2009 @ 12:52 AM GMT+4
    When I worked downtown I had the police number on speed dial, so please know that I did regularly call the police. Usualy when I call the police I just say, "you all should know the kids in the Harmony Lot are getting rowdy," as I know what a pain it is to fill out reports that nothing will ever be done with. That being said, while they would come down there is little they can do as there is a the whole "he said, she said," issue at hand. There seem to be no problems when the police just station themselves in the lot, but that is a tremendous waste of resources.
    Alcohaul
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, April 09 2010 @ 12:23 AM GMT+4
    I don't think it's a waste, David. It works. Doing what we're doing now is a waste, because it doesn't work. And they can always be available for more important calls. They're right downtown and can get anywhere from here.

    And maybe it is time to stop sidewalk smoking at night. People are also more aware of putting their butts in appropriate disposal spots in the daylight.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Rolf on Tuesday, July 07 2009 @ 02:13 PM GMT+4
    David W,

    My wife and I were in a car when some youths who were refusing to budge slammed the back if it with their hands.

    So, I completely agree that there is a problem that needs addressing in the harmony lot.

    But what the Addagio owner said, was an outrageous lumping of ALL youth in the lot, and was complettely unhelpful and uncivil suggestion.

    "Those kids" created the Tinderbox. Did you ever go the Tinderbox, the music venue and artspsace on Elliot Street when it existed ? Lumping "them" all together for the same treatment is in a word, hateful, mean spirited and a waste fo valuable police resources.

    My lumping in Addagio in with the other alcohol serving establishments might seem similarly unfair.

    If patrons of Addagio do not yell and act drunken they have nothing to fear from police presence.

    Kids who are doing nothing harmful likewise should have nothing to fear from police.

    Rolf



    ---
    Dreams Trump Video
    Alcohol
    Authored by: david_williamson on Saturday, July 11 2009 @ 01:04 AM GMT+4
    Rolf, I have a unique perspective being the former chef of Adagio, and when I talked before about being threatened by people in the Harmony Lot it was usually following a hard shit of work in a kitchen. I don't think the owners of Adagio have an obligation to attempt to distinguish between the few kids in the Harmony lot and the majority who are rude at best, and violent at worst. There are two reasons for this:

    1. First of all, the perception of the Harmony Lot is well known, so if kids - and more importantly, if kids parents allow them - decide to associate with that type of person, in that kind of an environment, then they are going to be subject to guilt by association. I'm sorry but your argument really upsets me because I've been listening to it for years now, what it amounts to is that nothing can be done about the problems in the Parking Lot because we can't distinguish between the trouble makers and the good kids. That argument doesn't hold water and is tantamount to saying you can't bust up a Brothel because some of the people there is a person there who just cooks the food.

    and

    2. We are talking about a parking lot. I do not, for the life of me, understand why it is that we have to have this discussion about a place where people park cars. Within blocks there are 3 separate legitimate parks these kids can go to. I suggest they do, and that the town encourage them to do so.

    With regards to the Tinderbox, of course I have been in to hear music and talk with the kids. I used to own the WeatherVane and so have a close relationship with the building and was happy to see the kids being productive. It is unfortunate that it did not work out, however the Tinderbox has no bearing on my assertions that the Harmony Lot is unsafe as a result of groups of kids being allowed free range of a place that is designed for parking cars and encouraging downtown business.

    There is a very unfortunate disconnect in your argument that I have been seeing for a number of years now with regards to this issue. I don't know how to bridge the gap here - and for that I am sorry - but the truth is, as a business person, I see the adverse effects that this protracted debate is causing and think it is but one small example of a larger, growing issue in this town.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Rolf on Tuesday, July 14 2009 @ 09:55 AM GMT+4
    David W,

    What I like about your post is that did not slide into sarcasm, it wasn't snide. Perhaps you are not one to be tempted in that way. At any rate, I appreciate that.

    We both agree that there it is important that the downtown be a place that is free of intimidating behavior.

    We both also want the police involved to some extent.

    We both also sense a "disconnect" in what the other person is saying.

    Your solution appears to be the one the police are pursuing, and nothing I write will have much impact on that, is my guess.

    However, the police cannot succeed at keeping any place free of people who are "loitering". They would have to be there all the time. All day, all night forever.

    If that's the proposal, to have them present, it makes more sense, to me, to have them present, but not trying to bust up a hacky sack game.

    When one reads the quotes of some people, one gets the clear impression that they hate, yes hate, the presence of all the kids in the lot, and the intimidating behavior of a few is being used as a pretext for clearing out all that are considered "riff raff."

    That's why the Addagio owners comment struck such a bad chord.

    My post however was entitled "Alcohol" for a reason.

    If you read the police reports the actual violence (as opposed to intimidation) that is regularly occurring in Brattleboro, the assaults, the
    man knocked into a coma, the deaths, the walking into a plate glass window, it frequently is occurring when the only reason to be "loitering" is that people are standing outside in front of bars.

    If there is going to be one standard, your policy of stopping all loitering would be applied to costumers of the Weathervane, the Metropolis, and any restaurant where people go outside for a smoke. No loitering, right?

    One could use your argument, that, well, we can't be asked to discern a difference between good actors and bad.

    IE, we know SOME bar patrons get drunk and break the law and are intimidating so we need to stop all loitering on Ellitot Street.


    But that would silly, and bad for the town.

    Not all bar patrons who are loitering, having a smoke are a problem. Not all teenagers in the lot are the problem. Why apply the " sweep them all away policy" only during the day in the harmony lot?

    That's the disconnect that I see in what you are saying.

    I am sure I have written enough now so that you see some new horrible disconnect in my writings. This conversation might be better in person than as a back and forth here on ibratt.

    But I am concerned that you experienced what you have, and want Brattleboro to be a place that feels safe, and is conducive to business, night and day.

    I just think that the alcohol crowd is the crowd that has proven to be more problematic (actual violence) and needs yes, even more policing, than the hacky sack crowd.

    Again, not all members of either group are the bad ones.

    Rolf


    ---
    Dreams Trump Video
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Truman on Wednesday, April 14 2010 @ 02:24 PM GMT+4
    But if we don't ask the hacky-sackers to move out of the roadway when a vehicle wants to pass....if we don't come down on the group of people yelling insults at everyone who passes by.....what does that tell them? That their actions are acceptable. So if those actions are acceptable, they'll get boring...and new actions will be found to push the envelope, like banging on the cars as they drive by.

    Deal with the behavior, no matter who's doing it. I don't see all kids/teens/young 20's as "bad"...but when I go through the Harmony Lot, I have to assume and behave as if they might be bad because of past experiences.

    Those causing problems are not people with parents who've taught them right from wrong, respect from disrespect. They need to learn it from somebody, so yes, I want the store owners to complain, I want the police to show up and do something about it. Maybe it's time for a group to request police presence there all day long as the weather gets better and the crowds get bigger. It's not cheap, but it could be effective.

    If people want the behavior stopped, we need to be proactive, because being reactive isn't working if police aren't called until after something happens and by the time they get there, the perpetrators are long gone.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: cgrotke on Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 07:02 PM GMT+4
    Um...

    The murder happened at 3 am, after bars would have closed.

    The police were there and spoke with him earlier in the evening, then
    came back. I should double-check the report, but I recall the officer
    being on the scene at the time of the stabbing.

    So, bars closed, police on scene and aware of the guy that evening,
    and through no fault of the police, a death still occurred.

    I was downtown the same night Rolf was. I felt more comfortable
    seeing lots of people on the street having a good time on one of the
    first nice Friday nights in a while. My big city instincts tell me to be
    scared of place where there aren't people hanging out.

    It was the night before the 4th of July. People were out having a good
    time. The police were there - very obviously. You couldn't miss them.
    They sat in cars and observed, they stopped people, they patrolled.
    Most of the people I saw were having fun.

    Alcohol is in almost every home. People get drunk and beat up their
    spouse and kids. They drink a bottle and drive their grandkids to
    school. Most of the time we don't see it. Sometimes we do. It's not
    just Elliot Street and it isn't just Brattleboro.

    Procatively preventing drunken behavior? Impossible, in my view. I
    think it's going after a a symptom rather than the cause.

    More programs to educate and help people, provide jobs and a sense
    of well-being, etc. are what I would suggest. But that takes a long
    time.

    It isn't a quick fix.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Mark on Sunday, July 05 2009 @ 07:30 PM GMT+4
    Just a few quick points I'd like to make to bring the focus back.

    Someone commented that the police reports usually start with "police responded to..." This was cited as evidence that police are only reactive.

    It is exceedingly rare for someone to start a fight with an officer standing right there. Let's not rush to label the police as failing to be proactive without thinking it through. Police walking downtown prevents a lot of problems. This is a difficult fact to nail down with a statistic. How many fights were prevented by officer presence? How do you explain why something didn't happen.

    Imagine the rediculousness of a press release that says "police were chatting with a few bar patrons out having a smoke when they started to argue and one citizen punched the other in the face. The officer made an arrest for assault" You see my point. Generally, the only assault that is ever witnessed by an officer is one that he is subjected to.

    As far as arresting intoxicated people, being drunk - in public or private - has not been illegal in Vermont for years. Drinking in public is, but it only earns you a town ordinance ticket.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: annikee on Monday, July 06 2009 @ 09:34 AM GMT+4
    In, jeez, probably 1996, I was out barhopping with a friend during my day off. At McNeill's I went into the ladies' and he went out for a cigarette. When I went out to join him he was already being put into a patrol car. In that short time. He was arrested for being "a threat" to the public/ peace because he was drunk. Quite drunk. Isn't Public Intoxication on the books anymore? If not, there seem a bunch of other quasi-regs that get people arrested around here. I'm sure something applies. My friend was not doing anything other than "holding up a wall"; no arguing, no fighting, nothing. He was just Quite Drunk. So it seems it's discretionary where arrests occur.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Mark on Monday, July 06 2009 @ 08:09 PM GMT+4
    It sounds like you are referring to the police taking someone into protective custody for excessive alcohol consumption. That lands you a jail cell and a meal. You get released in the morning with no charges.

    The police can not do this for someone who is just drunk. They have to be "incapacitated" to the point where they need medical care or are a threat to others. The law differentiates this from simply being "intoxicated."

    Title 33, Chapter 7, Section 702 spells it out. Section 708 explains the actions allowed by police.
    Imagine
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Monday, July 06 2009 @ 12:01 PM GMT+4
    ***Imagine the rediculousness of a press release that says "police were chatting with a few bar patrons out having a smoke when they started to argue and one citizen punched the other in the face.***

    Imagine a press release that says "While patroling the downtown area, police observed an altercation between two individuals. As a result, Wally J. Moonbarker and Picasso P. Noodleslapper were arrested for disorderly conduct."
    Not so ridiculous, is it?

    What's ridiculous is pretending that police are helpless and can't observe and catch beligerent drunks and drug dealers who are on foot. They can do it, and they can do it without targeting kids on skateboards, musicians, and kids just goofing around in a parking lot. Either the police don't want to be bothered, or somebody else doesn't want them to bother and is denying them the resources they need to do the job taxpayers want them to do.

    ---
    We Rock!
    Here we go again...
    Authored by: LynnL on Monday, July 06 2009 @ 03:41 PM GMT+4
    Ahhh…Harmony Lot problems of crime and kids! Sounds like Groundhog Day (remember the Bill Murray movie where it just keeps happening over and over and nothing changes). The kids issue is a matter of perspective. Some are okay with the rude behavior while others objecting when they return to their car and find a 19 year old sitting its hood! The crimes however, we all could most likely agree are not acceptable; whether it be drug dealing, fighting, or killing people.
    Part of the problem is our Town’s leaders who seemingly check the wind direction before deciding whether they want the police to enforce the existing laws. Wasn’t it about 3 years ago when the police found money from a couple of grants and asked the Selectboard to use them for hiring a couple of downtown beat cops and for cameras that would record any crimes in the Harmony Lot and Elliot Street? And to appease the paranoid who worried about being watched, the cameras were only going to record the area and not be viewed unless a crime was reported (similar to how banks, stores, and even the parking garage cameras now operate).
    Like the suggestion that most won’t commit a crime when an officer was standing nearby, neither would you be as likely to do something knowing that you were being taped for later viewing and possibly arrest. Unfortunately when the money was available the Selectboard listened to a bunch of “big-brother” crap. Some of the Selectboard even joined in with that same justification and voted down the grants. A real wise decision considering here we are again trying to figure out what to do about the crimes happening there, whether cops should be out on foot, whether we should now put up cameras, and where the heck the money to do these things will come from.
    So which way is the wind now blowing? My guess is that we will revisit this same question in a couple of more years - again. Ground Hog Day 2, again and again and…
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Rolf on Tuesday, July 07 2009 @ 01:54 PM GMT+4
    "It is exceedingly rare for someone to start a fight with an officer standing right there. "

    That's the point.

    I was not writing to criticize police, but rather to point out we need a constant presence on Elliot Street.

    Rolf

    ---
    Dreams Trump Video
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Rolf on Tuesday, July 07 2009 @ 02:03 PM GMT+4
    3 AM is a short time after the bars close.

    I saw no police on the night in question during my short walk.

    Nor did the drunken yellers see any police, thus I assume, they felt free to yell hostilities to each other.

    Yelling hostilities sometimes escalates to fighting, especially when people are drinking.

    And as I say, Mr Snow's death was not the first one to occur on Elliot Street near a bar.

    The last victim I remember was the man who was puched not far from what was Mike's I beleive, on Elliot Street.

    What might be useful would be for citizens to walk down Elliot Street during booze dispensing hours, and report back as to whether there are any police during these crucial hours.

    Again, this is not a criticism of police. The polie in Brattleboro have done great work on South Main Street, for which I am truly grateful.

    But a constant and highly visible presence is needed.




    ---
    Dreams Trump Video
    Police Out In Force On Friday Night
    Authored by: Lise on Tuesday, July 07 2009 @ 05:55 PM GMT+4
    I was downtown the same night Rolf was from about 10:30 to 12:30 on Friday night and sitting right there in the front window table of McNeill's, facing out. We saw the police go by numerous times. We saw them shine a spotlight on people getting rowdy. We saw them stop and talk to kids on Green St. They were there, so much so that we all noticed and commented on it.

    We had come downtown that night jokingly "looking for action." What we saw was a lot of young people and some older ones too, walking around, chatting, yes, smoking, and of course, drinking and dancing in the bars. It was GREAT FUN. I had a blast. I sat with Chris, and Barlow and Phayvanh and listened to our friend Pockets play Michael Jackson songs at just the right volume. We drank beer. We laughed and told stories and caught up on things. There was no drama for us at all.

    Not to discount Rolf's dramatic incident. But it wasn't the same for us. And like I said, the police seemed to be everywhere. At one point, we were literally in their spotlight, sitting in McNeill's. I couldn't have felt safer.... ;)

    Just wanted to get that out there as my experience was so different. For me, downtown is almost always a great experience, day or night. So either I'm very lucky or I have a higher threshold for noticing stuff. Having grown up in the city, I almost instinctively know when I'm at risk. I just don't get that feeling here in Brattleboro, but then again, I don't often walk around after the bars close. In fact, I even have a saying about that -- "There's nothing to get into but trouble after 2 am."

    Police Out
    Authored by: Rolf on Friday, July 10 2009 @ 05:12 AM GMT+4

    Well were just going back and forth on this, but again, I saw no police.

    Perhaps they were coming and going. It seems obvious that this is the case.

    "Having grown up in the city, I almost instinctively know when I'm at risk. I just don't get that feeling here in Brattleboro, but then again, I don't often walk around after the bars close. In fact, I even have a saying about that -- "There's nothing to get into but trouble after 2 am."

    Brattleboro is small enough that the "danger zone time" could be drastically improved with constant presence on Elliot Street, as opposed to the coming and going that appears to have happened on Friday night.

    Rolf



    ---
    Dreams Trump Video
    Alcohol
    Authored by: javanyet on Thursday, July 09 2009 @ 12:49 PM GMT+4
    People are amazing, either they are complaining about police "harassment" i.e. presence, or they are complaining that cops should BE there to keep the crime from occurring.

    Why don't you just send the cops a schedule and let them know when you'd like them to be around. It would save a lot of time and aggravation.


    ---
    "No guts, no glory."
    Bette Davis
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Rolf on Tuesday, July 14 2009 @ 08:48 AM GMT+4

    Police presence is not the same thing as police harassment, right ?

    Police can very effectively prevent violence and intimidating behavior, just by being seen.


    I can't find a single post that states they want less police presence.

    Thus, this particular post of yours makes no sense.

    Besides, desiring more police presence is not a criticism or attack of the police.

    The police in Brattleboro have a difficult job, and I have no desire to heep criticisms on them.

    Stating that we need them on Elliot Street, constantly, is not a criticism or an attack.

    Rolf




    ---
    Dreams Trump Video
    Alcohol
    Authored by: KlangenFarben on Monday, July 06 2009 @ 11:00 PM GMT+4
    Rolf, thank you for fixing the focus on the correct issue.

    A few notes:

    The officer was _not_ on the scene when the stabbing took place, he arrived (returned) shortly thereafter.

    The bars were closed, yes. Most of the disorderly conduct & violence occurs after the 2.30am bell, which is when the bars must be free of all beverages and the patrons are tossed. I've called the BPD to handle escalating situations at 3.15am numerous times. 11pm seems to be the second-most prone time for undesirable behavior.

    Most nights, especially if the Weathervane or Metropolis is busier than usual, 2-3 patrol cars wait in the Lot by the Elliot St entrance around 1.30am. When 2am rolls through, they start doing the rounds. A foot patrol may or may not be more effective--sometimes situations flare up while another is in progress, and I've seen the officer forced to dash down Elliot to address the most egregious incident at the time.

    Last August, at my suggestion, a cruiser was often parked in front of Emerson's sometime near last call to dissuade the Metropolis idiots from acting up. It was pretty effective. Haven't seen that strategy return for many moons.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Rolf on Friday, July 10 2009 @ 05:19 AM GMT+4
    Thanks for the clarifications, on the presence (or lack thereof) on the night of the murder,

    and the timing of the release of drinking patrons.

    I am curious if anyone else is interested in waling Elliot Street, late at night, to check to see how policed it is at closing time?

    Again, I think the police in Brattleboro do a great job overall. I am just trying to ascertain how strong assigned coverage is on a nightly basis from first hand experience.

    Rolf


    ---
    Dreams Trump Video
    Alcohol
    Authored by: AEames on Monday, July 13 2009 @ 03:06 PM GMT+4
    I realize this thread's a bit old, but I really wanted to
    respond, as a twenty-something "downtown kid". I
    live on Main St. with my 4-year-old son, hold 2 jobs,
    and yes, I occasionally stoop-sit in various spots
    downtown.

    I was downtown on Friday, speaking to several
    armed, uniformed Department of Liquor Control
    officers. As we spoke, we watched a gentleman
    staggering with his girlfriend down the street in front
    of Hotel RX. He paused for a moment to vomit
    directly on the sidewalk, himself and his girlfriend,
    then casually continued on his way.

    One officer remarked, "There's someone who's been
    overserved."

    Seriously.

    Now, these officers spent the entire night inspecting
    bars downtown, interviewing employees (bouncers,
    bartenders, performers), looking for Liquor license
    violations.

    Rather than approaching an obviously intoxicated (to
    the point of danger, in my opinion) man wandering
    town, the conversation focused on signage, tax
    documentation and managing crowds on the
    sidewalk.

    No mention of violence, profound intoxication or any
    of the issues we are ALL concerned about.

    I can't fight the feeling that our town and state
    governments are interested more in controlling the
    public (local and tourist) PERCEPTION
    of safety and the volume of business downtown.

    Without DUIs, no revenue. Without fights, no
    violation fines for bars. Without crackdowns, no press
    opportunities for generally lackluster legislators.

    I understand, as a resident and employee, the vital
    need for safety and civility. But this feels more like a
    deepening conflict between "night-time" businesses
    and "day-time" businesses, with law enforcement and
    bar employees caught in the middle, pulled in two
    directions.

    The perception that the people who - ON PUBLIC
    STREETS - harass, assault and loiter are somehow
    the responsibility of a business owner seems
    ignorant and reactionary. I'm tempted to question
    the politics/philosophy/age/class/race of some (not
    all) of those who post here. (You totally know who
    you are).

    I've noticed that all of the anecdotes I've heard
    about Elliott Street problems all occurred OUTSIDE on
    the street. We're all responsible for the vibe on the
    street.

    When you're afraid to go out, it's not because there's
    some Scorsese-scripted conflagration going on. It's
    because you're not into the bar scene, and you don't
    feel comfortable with the type(s) of people you
    perceive to be there.

    I feel qualified by experience (personal familiarity
    with the "night people") to say that intimidation in
    Harmony Lot is independent of the bars in large part
    - those drunken kids downtown? You know, they can't
    buy those 40-oz's at the Weathervane. They can't
    smoke weed in the bar. They can't even get a beer
    without an ID. But they can certainly furnish younger
    kids with booze from any store.

    I haven't heard anyone proposing a liquor sale ban
    at shops in Brattleboro.

    So if alcohol isn't going to be banned outright, let's
    stop acting like the problem is availability.

    A bar owner can be (and should be) shut down or
    fined for overserving an individual. But that individual
    himself is apparently not responsible for ANYTHING
    but refraining from driving or hitting people?

    Can we stop hiding behind cops, the selectboard and
    the chamber, and start talking?

    Come downtown! This is your place too!

    Plus, the more "normals" we get down here, maybe
    fewer thugs, vigilantes, and the freakouts who love
    them will feel like they set the social tone.

    Thanks.
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Rolf on Thursday, April 08 2010 @ 11:49 PM GMT+4

    According to this article, the Weather vane had over 20 incidents involving patrons and as a result their license renewal has been delayed.

    http://www.reformer.com/localnews/ci_14841572

    Other bars that are having their license renewals delayed are McNeil's and another alcohol dealer on Putney road, the Beacon.

    ---
    Dreams Trump Video

    Alcohol
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, April 09 2010 @ 12:13 AM GMT+4
    When will people learn that if you're gonna get wasted, stay home. Nobody wants to see or deal with what the smashed do in public. Besides, who can afford it these days?
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Rolf on Monday, April 12 2010 @ 05:20 PM GMT+4

    Charged on: 3/21/10
    ACCUSED: Alexander Johnson AGE: 23

    SUMMARY OF INCIDENT: On March 21, 2010 Brattleboro Police were advised of a fight on Elliot Street in front of the Metropolis Bar. When police arrived they found one male, Alexander Johnson screaming and yelling at another group of people in front of the bar. Johnson was arrested for Disorderly Conduct and brought to the Brattleboro Police Dept. for processing. Johnson was released on a citation to court for a later date and time.


    _______________

    Charged on: 3/18/10
    ACCUSED: AGE:

    SUMMARY OF INCIDENT: On 3/18/10 Brattleboro Police were patrolling Elliot Street when they discovered a man who had been assaulted. The man had been knocked down and beaten about the head and neck. The man was transported to BMH for treatment. Police are investigating this incident. Anyone who has any information related to a fight or assault that occurred near the Harmony Parking Lot around 1:40AM is asked to call Sgt. Mark Carignan at the Brattleboro Police Department.

    ---
    Dreams Trump Video
    Alcohol
    Authored by: Rolf on Sunday, May 02 2010 @ 10:37 PM GMT+4
    Excerpted From the Reformer

    http://www.reformer.com/ci_14917734

    Tuesday April 20, 2010
    Brattleboro

    -- Ron Wilkins, 25, of Brockton, Mass., was cited for driving under the influence April 17.

    A Brattleboro Police officer patrolling the downtown area on foot just after 1 a.m. noticed a vehicle traveling over a lawn on Church Street.

    Another officer in the area responded and located Wilkins allegedly driving his car on the lawn of a local business.

    Wilkins allegedly admitted to consuming alcohol prior to the operating the vehicle. Police said he failed field sobriety exercises and provided a "partial roadside breath sample" of .098. He was processed for DUI and released with a citation to appear in Windham District Court at a later date.

    ***


    -- Anthony Paraspolo, 25, of Newfane, was cited for driving while intoxicated April 13. He was stopped by Brattleboro Police for not having a front license plate. After a short investigation, it was allegedly found Paraspolo was intoxicated. He was arrested and brought to the Brattleboro Police Department for processing. He was released on citation to appear in court at a later time.

    ***



    -- Robert Foran III, 32, of Chesterfield, N.H., was cited April 11 to appear in Windham District Court at a later date for drinking and driving. Brattleboro Police conducted a stop of Foran's vehicle on Putney Road. During a search of Foran, officers allegedly located a stainless steel flask containing intoxicants. He was taken into police custody where he was processed for DUI.

    Rockingham

    -- Jami Mitcheal, 31, of Alstead, N.H., was arrested by Bellows Falls Police April 13 for driving under the influence on School Street just after 2 a.m.

    Mitcheal was processed and released with a citation to appear in Windham District Court May 4 to answer to the DUI charge.

    ***


    Vernon

    -- Bonnie J. Nasuta, 27, of Brattleboro, was arrested April 14 in Vernon for allegedly driving while intoxicated, attempting to elude police, driving with a criminally suspended license, resisting arrest and unlawful mischief.

    Officer Scott Lane of the Vernon Police Department took Nasuta into custody, and she was sent to Southern State Correctional Facility. She will answer to the charges against her at a later date in Windham District Court.

    ***

    -- Colleen E. Christiansen, 49, of Vernon, was arrested for driving while intoxicated April 9. Officer Scott Lane of the Vernon Police Department took Christiansen into custody without incident. She was cited to answer to the charge at a later date in Windham District Court and was released.

    Westminster

    -- Thomas Baldwin, 52, of Rockingham, was cited March 12 for drunken driving.

    At about 8 p.m., a State Police trooper conducted a motor vehicle stop of Baldwin's vehicle on Interstate 91 in Westminster after learning that his license was under civil suspension.

    Baldwin allegedly admitted to police that he had consumed three beers during the evening. A preliminary breath test allegedly revealed that Baldwin's blood alcohol concentration level was in excess of the legal limit of .08 percent.

    ---
    Dreams Trump Video

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