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    A Good Point Against Universal Healthcare    
    Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 01:07 AM GMT+4
    Contributed by: mr.mike

    OpinionPeople used to make comments about some of the stupid things that G.W Bush used to say. But I gotta tell ya. He doesn't hold a candle to this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqUmuZnmf7A

    You've got to be kidding me!!! Was he serious or joking? Hey. Mr Obama. In case you haven't heard the freakin Post Office is going broke!!!! Watch the news lately? I mean after all it is under your government. They may be closing Post Offices. They have huge debt. And lets face it. Their service and rates suck.

    This alone should convince anyone in their right mind what's going to happen to the health insurance when the government takes over. I can't believe he said that.

    I can only hope that eventually that will be the fate of a governemnt run healthcare system. It will end up like the post office and a few private insurance companies will rise up out of the ash heap of Socialism and crush it.

     

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  • A Good Point Against Universal Healthcare | 34 comments | Create New Account
    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    A Good Point Against Universal Healthcare
    Authored by: cbridge on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 09:22 AM GMT+4
    Mr. Mike - have you forgotten that the Post Office was privatized under
    Reagan? And the rates are not due to mismanagement, but to things like
    higer gas prices. Every time the price of gas goes up a few cents, the PO
    loses many many millions.

    Our health care system is one of the least efficient in the world. We
    spend a much higher percentage of GDP on health than any other
    industrialized country; but they all manage to get basic care to all their
    citizens. We don't. No system is perfect, but ours is so out of whack by
    now that a drastic overhaul is needed. Public option is as close as we are
    going to get to squeezing excess profits out of the system.
    A Good Point Against Universal Healthcare
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 11:12 AM GMT+4
    USPS is not quite fully privatized. Here is an excellent article on the matter. Dear USPS: Consider Privatizing

    There is just enough government intervention into the USPS to stifle it's efficiency. Just another reason why so many folks don't trust the government to run healthcare.

    A Good Point Against Temper Tantrums
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 12:09 PM GMT+4
    OK, after this I'm going to stop engaging with you.

    The government does not want to run health care. This bill is about regulating private insurance companies so they can't cut people off when they get sick, or keep them from buying insurance if they are already sick.

    It also tweaks Medicare and offers federal health insurance to middle-class people who do not currently have access to insurance through an employer. I thought Republicans liked entrepreneurship.

    This bill is a tiny baby step in the right direction. I am thoroughly sick of screamers protesting changes that NO ONE IS PROPOSING. It's like we live in a country of 2-year-olds.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    A Good Point Against Temper Tantrums
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 02:25 PM GMT+4

    Your summary is what we all would like to see, but the devil is in the details of the H.R.3200 and that's what all the fuss is about. Hopefully the Senate's version will address the majority of concerns concerning how it is to be paid for, healthcare rationing based on age, quality of life or productivity, and the freedom to move from one private plan to another private plan without being forced into the public option. These are just a few of the proposals that the two year olds are screaming about.

    As for not engaging me anymore, that's your call and a disappointing one at that.

    A Good Point Against Temper Tantrums
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 03:15 PM GMT+4
    "As for not engaging me anymore, that's your call and a disappointing one at that."

    Just about this, Alan. We can still talk about pizza. :)

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    A Good Point Against Temper Tantrums
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 03:23 PM GMT+4
    Fair enough. I do appreciate what you have to say.
    A Good Point Against Universal Healthcare
    Authored by: TomBuch on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 10:15 AM GMT+4
    Listen to the clip again. President Obama referenced UPS and Fed-Ex as “doing just fine,” and then said it’s the post office that’s having problems.

    As noted by another poster, the post office was privatized, and most of it’s troubles are related to a changing marketplace (higher costs, competitors that cherry pick profitable services, and electronic delivery systems that bypass pay services entirely). In spite of that, I’m pretty impressed that the post office will pick up a letter at my house, carry it across the continent, and then hand deliver it to another home for just 44 cents. And their workers will do that with a smile.

    The post office used to be the whipping boy for bad service, but these days it's offering solid and friendly service in spite of a changing marketplace that will no doubt require a changing business plan.
    No Good Point Against Universal Healthcare
    Authored by: xteeth on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 11:24 AM GMT+4
    Anyone that has sufferred the outrageous pricing of FedEx or UPS should be insisting that the "choice" of sending packages with the USPS be included on the internet under shipping options. It is about 1/4 of the cost. Very much like health care, the privatized version is incomplete and way more expensive. FedEx and UPS get to suck off the lucrative packages and don't have to pick up at every house in America every business day.

    Also compare the costs of getting rid of the DPW which used to have trucks and boxes and employees to pave your roads. The roads are no better but the prices are much higher. All those jokes in the '70's about the seven guys standing around the ditch and the one guy in the hole with a shovel could only be told by someone who has never been in a hole digging with another person swinging a shovel. Now the other seven guys are back at corporate headquarters applying for more no-bid contracts and tax breaks. Half of the Fortune 500 corporations now pay no taxes whatsoever. Hooray for the United States Postal Service. Bring them back under government supervision and support.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Conservative fun
    Authored by: paulgardner on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 11:38 AM GMT+4
    I can tell the Obama administration is providing good entertainment for conservatives, but let's draw a line between talking points and reality (which admittedly has a liberal bias :)

    I doubt anyone depends on the U.S. Post Office more than I do and they have been 100% reliable for me.
    You can not find a private company that's going to compete in every town, and nook and cranny of the US like the Post Office does.
    What private companies like to do is make a killing on high volume routes and that's fine, but rural areas get ignored or pay a big premium for service. I want a service that's going to be everywhere. That is a government service - BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HAVE TO MAKE A PROFIT! it has to serve the needs of ALL the citizens.

    Another point, when you're extolling the virtues of privately run anything versus the supposedly corrupt, evil and inefficient government, remember one fact: private companies can go belly up at any moment.
    You want to see something ugly: how about a big health insurance company going out of business? Or a big hospital chain?
    Private companies like Enron, Lehman Bro.s et al have proved very adept at hiding their own failing health.
    And as always when the inevitable happens it'll be "come home to mama time" as the federal government picks up the pieces.
    The only reason private business looks at all good is because the gov. is there to provide all sorts of free services and protect them from nature and etc.
    If business had to pay the real cost of everything the feds provide, they'd (we - I'm in business too) go under.
    A Good Point Against Universal Healthcare
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 02:59 PM GMT+4
    More far right wing bloviating. Honestly, when they aren't whining and crying they're having the wool pulled over their eyes by their own leaders. That may be the diff between the left and right; they actually believe what their "leaders" tell them to believe.

    And now for something completely different; facts-

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/32307452#32307452

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.

    A Good Point Against Simple Thinking
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 03:04 PM GMT+4
    And mr.mike, I know youtube is more up your alley, but you really should read THE SHOCK DOCTRINE, a history book about how WE'VE ALL been hosed by ALL our politicians and their pals thru the last 30-40 years.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    A Good Point Against Simple Thinking
    Authored by: xteeth on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 07:17 PM GMT+4
    That is not the lesson from my reading of Naomi Klein. The Milton Freidman "free market" ideas, though they have damaged all the countries in which they have been forced by the IMF and the World Bank, mainly have benefitted those in this country who work behind the scenes to assure Republicanic ascendency. Though they got some stuff, like NAFTA through under Clinton, the glory days were earlier times with Reagan and Bush I and then Bush II. Now they have a military arm (Erik, "the murderer" Prince and Blackwater) to be their enforcers. Major beneficiaries are all the usual suspects - Halliburton, KBR, Bechtel, not the usual Democratic friends.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    A Good Point Against Simple Thinking
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 10:04 PM GMT+4
    When I say, WE ALL, I'm talking about we worker ants, the people being villified; Dems, Repos, whatever.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    A Good Point Against GOP's claims
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 03:29 PM GMT+4
    Britain isn't thrilled with how their NHS is being smeared by the right wingnuts & their hired minions:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/11/nhs-united-states-republican-health

    Knowing family and friends who actually use the NHS in both the UK & Canada, I can tell you they all get far superior care to what we get ("unless you're rich, shut up & suffer" is what I call our "healthcare").

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.

    A Good Point Against GOP's claims
    Authored by: mr.mike on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 12:19 AM GMT+4
    Really Daniel Hannan doesn't seem to think so.

    Two questions for ya. Do you not recieve adequate healthcare and are you not being covered for treatment?

    And do you still smoke?

    ---
    Want to see how bad the U.S. will be in a few years?

    Look at Vermont.
    A Good Point Against GOP's claims
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 01:02 AM GMT+4
    2 questions for you:
    Can you ever stay on topic?

    What's your point?

    Daniel Hannan is one person, give me evidence or don't bother. Okay?

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    A Good Point Against GOP's claims
    Authored by: mr.mike on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 01:05 AM GMT+4
    Uh I haven't changed topics. Both those questions are healthcare related.

    And again you avoid the topic

    ---
    Want to see how bad the U.S. will be in a few years?

    Look at Vermont.
    A Good Point Against GOP's claims
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 01:11 AM GMT+4
    Personal questions about my health are not the topic, they're your manipulative games instead of having a real discussion about the issue. Fauxnoose has snared you well.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    A Good Point Against GOP's claims
    Authored by: mr.mike on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 01:20 AM GMT+4
    Yeah ok.

    Well you better get used to it. Because it's gonna be bureaucracy's business when we have Universal health care. When the real reform kicks in every aspect of your life will be under scrutiny.

    And just remember the government is going to keep those that contribute the most into the system around as long as they possibly can. How else are they going to pay for it? The rich? Right they'll keep the rich around as long as they can to fund the system. and those that are a draw on the system. Well you know the rest

    ---
    Want to see how bad the U.S. will be in a few years?

    Look at Vermont.
    A Good Point Against GOP's claims
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 01:24 AM GMT+4
    How can you stand to live in such fear?

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    A Good Point Against GOP's claims
    Authored by: xteeth on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 11:13 AM GMT+4
    But he doesn't live in the fear, he just uses it to frighten - well, grandma, this week. It will be someone else next week but the terror in the old people's eyes goes on and on. I bet it makes him proud. His happy life is built upon the Democratic programs of Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the FDIC, unions and on and on which financed grandma so that she didn't suck the money out of the middle class as their parents got older. Fannie Mae made possible the buying of the fanily house. This is Republicanic ingrate politics at its best. Now he's got his, he wishes to prevent anyone else from getting theirs. Hence fear, distortions etc. financed by $1.4 million dollars a day from the Health Uninsurance Corporations.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    It's Not Health Care
    Authored by: Tylerhillgarden on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 03:53 PM GMT+4
    What some fortunate people in the United States have is health 'insurance.' It's not health 'care.'

    Just a quick point before I go to my 2nd job - and I do not have health insurance at either one.

    I'm looking forward to ANY health insurance proposals at this point. And, having briefly studied the Obama plan, it is good - I certainly would have liked to have seen more progress, but I'll take (at 48 yrs. old) what I can get.
    Professor Stephen Hawking weighs in on the health care debate
    Authored by: Christian Avard on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 05:48 PM GMT+4

    "I wouldn't be here if not for the NHS."

    Your move, Mr. Mike, SJD, and AlanF.

    Professor Stephen Hawking weighs in on the health care debate
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 06:34 PM GMT+4

    This statement caught my attention:

    "Both Democrats and Republicans have voiced opposition to the cost which will bring free health care to the 40 million people without any private health insurance.

    That news to me. Free healthcare? I thought the government option had at least some minimal cost to it based on your financial situation. I wonder if the Mexican illegals are included in that 40 million figure.

    the health care debate
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 08:38 PM GMT+4
    Yes, it's free. If the plan is structured like NHS, it will include anyone in the country. In the UK, that's a stickler- because if they travel (and my friends do) it isn't honored in some other countries. For instance, they were in Egypt and couldn't believe they had to pay for an antibiotic, and that it cost 80 Euros. But I haven't read the proposed whole plan, and I'd assume, Alan, that if you didn't even know it was free, you haven't either.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    the health care debate
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 09:16 PM GMT+4

    Your assumption is correct. I haven’t read the entire HR plan, but since you apparently have read at least up to the part about the plan being free, what are the qualifications for free healthcare?

    the health care debate
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 09:58 PM GMT+4
    Haven't gotten that far. I'm reading it carefully.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    the health care debate
    Authored by: mr.mike on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 12:34 AM GMT+4
    The bottom line is, it's not free, just like it's not free in Canada or the UK. It's paid for by confisciatory tax policies.

    Let me tell you a story about healthcare in the UK. A friends father went in for a routine colonscopy. They perfed his bowel. Now rather than immediately go in and surgically repair his colon and give him antibiotics,(like they would do here at BMH). They decided to wait and see what happens and just treat him for infection. About 2 months later after being in a coma he died.

    Now that may happen here as well. But I'd be afraid of this becoming standard operating procedure under a government program.

    Another thing to think about. Under the cash for clunkers program. As of last week there were around 219,000 claims filed by dealerships for the $4,500 per vehicle. Only about 1,600 claims had been paid to the dealers. What's goona happen when the flood gates open at area hospitals for this so called "free" healthcare?

    ---
    Want to see how bad the U.S. will be in a few years?

    Look at Vermont.
    the health care debate
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 12:59 AM GMT+4
    Let me tell you a story about healthcare in Canada. My cousin was diagnosed with a lump in her breast last February. Three days later they removed the lump. Then they set a schedule for her to receive chemo, starting the following week. She was given car service to/from her home (farm) and between the hotel and hospital, hotel accomodations, meals and a choice of wigs once her hair started going. And the government sent a hand to her farm to cover her work. She has just finished radiation. About a month ago they pronounced her cancer-free and her farmhand will stay now until harvest is done. Cost to her family; nothing. It's in everyone's taxes. And they don't pay copays, and there's nothing that won't be covered, whatever is needed is done.

    My sister in law, with very good insurance, in New York City, fared much worse. teatment was spotty. They played wait and see. Two radical mastectomies and three years of chemo later, she's ok now. But when they went to refinance their home this year, an old medical bill for 10 grand in tests done is on their credit record because the insurance co. never paid it. Now they can't refinance, either. So throw up all the stories you want. My mother and stepfather had to remortgage their house at 70 years of age to pay for my mother's ambulance service to/from kidney dialysis. Want any more horror stories about medical bills and this country? I have dozens, let's go. Bring it.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    the health care debate
    Authored by: pjmelton on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 12:53 PM GMT+4
    There are zillions of stories. The fact is, NO ONE is talking about anything even remotely like the British OR the Canadian systems. The French are a much better model - a public insurance option, with the additional option to buy private insurance.

    No need for anyone to freak out about something so incredibly small. The government already runs two huge health insurance programs (Medicare and Medicaid), PLUS a socialized health system (the V.A.). All are quite a bit more popular than the private insurance system is. Everyone can just freakin' chill, because the Senate will make sure that nothing truly major can happen to the poor, poor, starving insurance executives.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Daniel Hannan's Response
    Authored by: mr.mike on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 01:12 AM GMT+4
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,538690,00.html

    ---
    Want to see how bad the U.S. will be in a few years?

    Look at Vermont.

    Daniel Hannan's Response
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 01:18 AM GMT+4
    Ah, I smelled a Fox.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.
    Daniel Hannan's Response
    Authored by: annikee on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 01:49 AM GMT+4
    More from the UK about what's going on here:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/12/healthcare-town-halls-obama

    The comments from the readers say much more than the story.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.

    Couple Good Points
    Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 08:50 PM GMT+4
    Lewis Black expresses his views on health insurance and God:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=legFa7_-RIc

    Gotta laugh, folks.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    Believing gossip is worse than spreading it.

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