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    What The Health Happened?    
    Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 08:55 AM GMT+5
    Contributed by: xteeth

    OpinionI think that when most people (including people who read the dictionary) think of compromise or negotiation, they assume that each side gets something and gives something up in exchange. Like your mother taught you - share your toys. Those fond memories have nothing to do with what currently goes on in our Senate.

    Hate them or love them, the first column is a list of the things Democrats wished to have in the health reform legislation. Both parties say that some kind of reform is necessary as our current system is not sustainable. The second column is the results of the negotiations:

    Single payer ---------------------------------------gone
    Universal coverage ---------------------------------gone
    Medical records keeping ----------------------------gone
    Extension of Medicare to those 55+ ----------------gone
    No rescission ---------------------------------------gone
    No pre-existing condition exclusion ----------------gone
    Require large employers to cover ------------------gone
    No lifetime cap on coverage -----------------------gone
    SCHIP - coverage for children ---------------------gone
    Assistance for those unable to afford it -----------gone
    No insurance across state lines --------------------gone
    Trim Medicare to cover some expenses ----------kept
    Mandate coverage for 30 million -------------------kept
    Fines for not buying coverage ----------------------kept


    How did this happen? Was the filibuster a favorite tool? Its purpose is to make sure of the protection of the rights of the minority all the way down to one Senator.

    1962 Dem Senate, Democratic president --------------- 7 (Kennedy)
    1989 Dem Senate, Republicanic president ------------- 11 (Reagan)
    1996 Rep Senate, Democratic president --------------- 90 (Clinton)
    2003 Rep Senate, Republicant president --------------- 65 (Bush II)
    2009 Dem Senate, Democratic president -------------- 140 (Obama)

    So as a result of these "negotiations," the bill coming out of the Senate, gets rid of all the Democrat's desired items, which were intended to enable you to be covered by health insurance, and keeps items that increase by some 30 million those forced to be new customers of the health insurance industry at whatever price they would like to charge. Threatened with fines for noncompliance. It gets rid of SCHIP (poor children's coverage). Makes cuts to Medicare in the future which were predicated upon the increasing efficiency of electronic data and improved health as some 45 thousand people wouldn't be dying each year due to lack of coverage (so now there will be the cuts to Medicare without the improvements which might have resulted).

    This has been a clearly brilliant parliamentary maneuver by Republicants including the ones in the Democratic Party. Perhaps you don't realize that Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, FDIC, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Rural Electrification, FEMA, Wagner Act, creation of week ends, 40 hour week, overtime pay, elimination of child labor, and on and on were Democratic programs, and started out just like this Health Care reform. Oddly though, at that time we had a different Democratic Party or country or something because those things, upon which you depend now, were passed into law though the objections of Cantservatives were the same as they are now. Perhaps the memory of the Depression was more fresh, or the lying hadn't reached fever pitch.

    The experience in Massachusetts is indicative. Though started by governor Romney (R), our southern neighbor is achieving universal health care, much like what started out in the Senate. It is a mess, costs are huge etc. Strangely enough, though, about 60% of Mass residents now rely on it and want it to be improved and continued according to a Harvard Medical School study. Very much like Canada, France, Britain, Switzerland and on and on, where costs are half or less than are ours, people are quite satisfied that government can do this - just as they are with Medicare and Medicaid.

    So I guess the lesson is that you will be harmed if you let Democrats do what is currently thought of as "negotiating." With the Petersen foundation spending about one billion dollars to get rid of Social Security, if you want to continue to have a middle class without your parents living in your basement keep important things away from the current group of Democratic negotiators - nice guys finish last.

     

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  • What The Health Happened? | 89 comments | Create New Account
    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: cgrotke on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 12:45 PM GMT+5
    Thanks for the run-down.

    Drop the mandates and the fines and we've almost accomplished
    something. : )
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: xteeth on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 02:31 PM GMT+5
    I would far rather have a run up. I don't know what to do. We got a majority, now it seems that we need some 70 votes in order to get 60 as ten or so of the ones we have don't support this most Democratic of issues. That would mean incursion into some of the Red South, never going to happen. (Incidentally, someone pointed out that they think that employer mandates are still in there. Since no one has seen the bill all I can do is read the stuff in the news and like anyone, I have only so much time in the day and there are disagreements even among those that you might think would know. I stand by this stuff though. I am heart sick.)

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 04:29 PM GMT+5
    It wouldn't have mattered anyway. It appears Rahng Emanuel had negotiated away any hope for a bill that would displease the insurance and pharm lobby long before any of this talk of medicare buy-in or public option. It was all just pablum for us, to make it sound like they really tried hard.

    ---
    We Rock!
    Greed did the deed
    Authored by: spinoza on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 02:34 PM GMT+5
    Not to be a Gloomy Gus; but with this health reform fiasco and the Climate Charade in Copenhagen, it seems as clear as ever that the interests of Money steamroll that of reason, maybe even survival.

    Krugman
    Authored by: paulgardner on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 03:03 PM GMT+5
    NY Times columnist and Nobel Prize (economics) winner, Paul Krugman carries a lot of weight with me. He says today that progressives should back the bill. The problem is he doesn't give as many specifics as xteeth.

    Did anyone else read the column?
    Krugman
    Authored by: vtjasper68 on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 04:30 PM GMT+5
    Plain and simple it's politics. Everyone thought that now that we had a Democratic President and a majority of Democrats in both Houses of Congress, health care would fly through, along with EFCA and all the other promises.
    Nothing has changed. In fact, i believe we have gone backwards.
    Krugman
    Authored by: pjmelton on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 06:02 PM GMT+5
    There are a lot of things that are absolutely vital in the bill for the working and not-working poor. I am disappointed, but glad they are doing something that can be built on later. Ezra Klein is a good one to follow for health care policy analysis: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/

    Honestly, I stopped following health care (and unsubscribed from Ezra's blog in my feed reader) some time ago, because it was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. However, the bill is not as bad as people are making out. Ezra's take: "Imagine telling a Democrat in the days after the 2004 election that the 2006 election would end Republican control of Congress, the 2008 election would return a Democrat to the White House, and by the 2010 election, Democrats would have passed a bill extending health-care coverage to 94 percent of Americans, securing trillions of dollars in subsidies for low-income Americans (the bill's $900 billion cost is calculated over 10 years, but the subsidies continue indefinitely into the future), and imposing a raft of new regulations on private insurers. It is, without doubt or competition, the single largest social policy advance since the Great Society."

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR

    Krugman
    Authored by: vtjasper68 on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 08:53 PM GMT+5
    The only thing it advances is the Insurance and Pharma's control over our insurance. The senators have sold us out and so has the president.
    Krugman
    Authored by: pjmelton on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 01:03 PM GMT+5
    On what basis do you make that claim? You might believe it, but that does not make it true. Show me some numbers proving that only insurance companies benefit!

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Krugman
    Authored by: dfhoughton on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 01:28 PM GMT+5
    This just isn't so. Read more about the bill. I've been following politics obsessively for a while now. All of this bellyaching about the bill mischaracterizes it. Please inform yourselves before you rant.

    Yes, the liberals had to compromise and compromise and compromise again. It's not that they got nothing for it, but all they've gotten so far is for conservative Democrats to allow official debate to begin. Yes, the Obama administration screwed up by setting an arbitrary limit of 900 billion dollars as a ten-year pricetag. Yes, it galls that the same fiscal scolds who tut tut about the price of healthcare for the poor signed off on Bush's tax cuts for the rich, Medicare Part D, and wars, all of which were funded with debt and all of which enriched wealthy interests in one way or another. Yes, it galls that the Republicans have decided it's better to burn the government down than let Democrats pass legislation. Yes, most of the debate has revolved around lies and distortions from the opponents of healthcare reform. Yes, even now the people given the most responsibility in the republic find it unnecessary to master the most basic details of policies they've been debating for decades. Yes, single payer would save much more money and be much simpler. In general, this is really sucky legislation and that we're settling for this illustrates that our government is fundamentally broken.

    BUT, this is a huge, huge improvement over the status quo and we can improve on it over time! If progressives help scuttle this this will be like the Naderification of 2000 all over again. Things will get a lot worse and there will be hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths, hundreds of thousands of preventable medical bankruptcies, and the whole nation will be vastly poorer before we get another crack at it. It sucks that Lieberman risked all of this out of pique. It sucks that the conservatives howl in rage and threaten insurrection and mutiny over lies and distortions. But let's take this!!!

    And please, please, please find out the facts before you foment your own insurrection against health care reform. I believe there are concern trolls out there trying to do just this, spreading misinformation to gullible progressives. Don't launder any lies with your own reputation.
    Krugman
    Authored by: annikee on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 03:16 PM GMT+5
    df, please give a link to something sane that points out the good stuff about this- as all I read is the bad and what's been thrown out.

    What may happen in the end is that it all goes back to state level. That is also a good/bad scenario.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    If you've a bed, closet & fridge, you're richer than 75% of the people alive.
    Krugman
    Authored by: dfhoughton on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 07:42 PM GMT+5
    Ezra Klein is great. Here, for example, he is responding to Jane Hamsher's list of 10 reasons to kill the bill:

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/12/jane_hamshers_10_reaons_to_kil.html

    Here's some about insurer monopolies:

    http://feeds.voices.washingtonpost.com/click.phdo?i=07e88e02f9fea40fa377db896de690fe

    Ezra is very pragmatic. He wants the best policy outcome. I'm very much in his camp. I would love to have gotten a better bill, but I'd hate to get no bill at all. Other folks I like to read are Steve Benen, Matt Yglesias, Kevin Drum, and Talking Points Memo. They all sound the same themes but Ezra's main focus is HCR.
    Krugman
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, December 22 2009 @ 07:45 AM GMT+5
    And yes, it mandates the purchase of health insurance, which will either be paid by individuals or subsidized by tax dollars, and yes, that's a huge reward for the same insurance companies that are the biggest part of the problem already.

    ---
    We Rock!
    Again with the bathwater
    Authored by: pjmelton on Tuesday, December 22 2009 @ 11:19 AM GMT+5
    All of this is true. But the Medicaid expansion, non-discrimination based on health status, inability to put a cap on people's benefits, and subsidies for the working poor are absolutely essential.

    I think people are throwing these very precious babies out with the (admittedly, rather nasty) bath water. But short of a second Constitutional convention, we cannot expect radical changes to happen at a non-glacial pace in this country. So I'll take what's available in this world. People I love really, really need this bill to pass.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    There's sewage in the bathwater
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, December 22 2009 @ 05:27 PM GMT+5
    I can see your point, and many have said that we'd be much better off if we had accepted similar deals in the past.
    But I can't see how "reform" that maintains the status quo really helps all of us in the long run. This will actually increase the cost of health care, as far as I can tell, and strengthen the influence of insurance companies.

    Medicaid expansion is great, but how do you think Vermont is going to pay for more Medicaid when we can't pay for what we have now?

    Non-discrimination (except based on gender, apparently) and the inability to put a cap on people's benefits is great, too, but insurance companies will charge everyone more because of those liabilities.

    Subsidies for the working poor are fine, too, and I understand that it solves problems for a many individuals, but it compounds the overall problem of health care affordability.


    ---
    We Rock!
    Where's the Money?
    Authored by: SJD on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 03:31 PM GMT+5
    CHINA: 'The world does not have Money to buy more US Treasuries'...

    The Bottom line, like or not, we are out of money, not just a little broke but very broke.

    This health care bill is bout 1/6th of our economy, every hear the one about the straw that broke the camel's back? Let's get our own house in order before we tinker with everyone's empty pockets. At this rate we soon will have no middle calls, just a single class of poor, perhaps this what was wanted all along.

    http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/print.asp?id=423054

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.

    Where's the Money?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 04:41 PM GMT+5
    Our health care is the ONE thing we should be spending money on - not bailouts for billionaires, war exursions for corporations, or gumming giveaways to the country's most profitable companies.

    ---
    We Rock!
    Where's the Money, jobs, Beef?
    Authored by: SJD on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 09:25 PM GMT+5
    No, I thought it was all about the jobs... seen any stimulus jobs lately? Heck seen any H1N1 shots for us basic mortals. With lots of jobs conditions will stabilize. I thought a 1930's grand old job creation initiative was called for, at least sold to us saps in the public. But no, we get +10% unemployment. They believe people who have never run a business can run a business better than people who have spent their whole lives running businesses. Seen any streamlining of Medicare? All brought to you by the same folks who think they can provide health-care.. freakin great!

    I think there will be a big market for those one leg portable stools, you will need a place to rest in line for health-care and bread.

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.
    Where's the Money, jobs, Beef?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 11:40 PM GMT+5
    Exaclty, it's like the republicans never lost. Maybe they didn't. Maybe they just put "D" after their names.

    ---
    We Rock!
    Where's the Money, jobs, Beef?
    Authored by: mr.mike on Sunday, December 20 2009 @ 08:44 AM GMT+5
    Here's where we insert the broken record sound effect of Maus saying. "Blame the Republicans", "Blame the Republicans", Blame the Republicans", "Blame the republicans"....

    ---
    Trying to rid Afghanistan of the Taliban is like trying to rid Vermont of Socialism.
    Where's the Money, jobs, Beef?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Sunday, December 20 2009 @ 10:58 AM GMT+5
    Just sound out the words, mr. mike. You'll figure out what I'm saying sooner or later.

    ---
    We Rock!
    Where's the Money, jobs, Beef?
    Authored by: xteeth on Sunday, December 20 2009 @ 01:17 PM GMT+5
    No, I believe that it is impossible for a conservative to figure out the meaning of progress. There is no path from there to anywhere forward. Required is some sort of reality change. It is so boring to hear all the can't don't won't shouldn't oughtn't that spews out when their mouths open. One of the interesting things about the speeding up of history that has occurred in our lives is that the one thing that we all know is that you can't stay still and you can't go backwards. That game is over. It is going to change. Change it for the better or it will get worse. Not even the most troglodyte Republicant thinks that our health care system can continue like it has been. But they refuse to put their brains into a mode that might make it better - all they can think is to stop anything progressives want. That's not on.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Where's the Money, jobs, Beef?
    Authored by: SJD on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 08:06 PM GMT+5
    Oh What..I missed this little sqabble... I was watching MSNBC for latest unbiased straight-up, no commentary, no opinion news of the day..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC59K76LGK4&feature=player_embedded

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.

    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: xteeth on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 08:12 PM GMT+5
    Couple of maybe corrections. Evidently large company mandates are in there - you may or may not think that this is a good idea as it forces people to pay what they have evidently decided they cannot afford to pay with quite reduced governmental assistance.

    Supposedly the caps on payment are removed but one analysis says that there is a loophole here big enough to...............

    There is also some argument about whether recission is still allowable. California has decided that they cannot enforce their antirecission law which uses this same language.

    Is it better than nothing? I don't know and I don't see why we are forced to try and figure that out.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Strong parallels with the 1957 civil rights bill
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 09:51 PM GMT+5
    "Once you break the virginity, it'll be easier next time."
    --LBJ talking to fellows on the Hill, Rowe, Reedy and Corcoran, on the
    importance of passing a watered down civil rights bill in 1957, which
    helped break the backs of the Dixiecrat southern opposition and
    blockage of any and all civil rights reforms in the country.

    If you want to make a crude comparison between today's watered
    down, almost completely progressive-less health care bill, writer
    Robert Caro, who has written extensively about Lyndon Johnson's rise
    to power in three books, the last one, "Master of the Senate," which
    lists the quote above and devotes hundreds of pages to this 1957 bill,
    which Johnson worked so hard to craft and get passed.

    Disheartened advocates of strong health care reform would find some
    historical solace in Robert Caro's third book on Lyndon Johnson,
    "Master of the Senate," which covers LBJ's years as powerful Senate
    majority leader, warts and all, culminating in his shepherding of the
    1957 civil rights bill.

    Johnson had to work very hard, using all his skills as a persuader and
    vote counter, to put together a coalition. By the time the bill came up
    for a vote, it was so diluted by the Dixiecrats of Johnson's own party
    and caucus as to be virtually meaningless. Liberals of the day
    considered voting against it. Johnson convinced them, however, that
    even an emasculated, watered down, almost meaningless bill,
    essentially just a 'voting rights' bill but with no real teeth, was better
    than no bill at all. WHY??? Because, as Caro so persuasively writes in
    the book, which I urge every liberal and progressive to read (for the
    good and the bad about this man), passage of the 1957 civil rights bill
    would open the door to future, more effective legislation. Caro even
    goes as far to say that had it NOT been for the "meaningless" 1957
    bill passed into law, which dampened Southern resistance, the 1965
    civil rights act would not have been achieved. The 1965 law was built
    on the meagre but groundbreaking foundation of the 1957 "virgin
    breaker" as Johnson described it so crudely. On page 893, Caro writes
    that "[Johnson] knew...that the most important thing wasn't what was
    in the bill. The most important thing was that there BE a bill." Caro
    added that, "One of the reasons was psychological....Demonstrate
    that the South could be beaten and more attempts would be made to
    beat it, other bills would follow that would be stronger."

    I think Brooks Memorial Library has the Caro series. I wish everyone
    would read it, even though these are big books and have many pages
    in them. You can learn a lot from them.
    Strong parallels with the 1957 civil rights bill
    Authored by: paulgardner on Thursday, December 24 2009 @ 06:59 PM GMT+5
    Great book!

    I can't imagine that same kind of break through here. As strongly entrenched as the pro segregation crowd was politically they didn't have a $1+ million to spend on Congress every day. Boat loads of money does a lot to counter public will.
    Lets Make A Deal
    Authored by: SJD on Saturday, December 19 2009 @ 09:53 PM GMT+5
    Sweetheart deals – Bernie Sanders 10 billion dollars for VT community health centers -disappointed no public options – got what he wanted.

    Nelson abortion language number changes - bill will provide money rural hospitals and 100% funding Medicaid expansion very big deal – other states – 47 don’t getting deals – He says if the abortion bill language is not there, he will not vote for it – right.

    Mary Landry 300 million dollars for her state – this is being called the “New Louisiana Purchase.”

    Reid has opened door to getting votes – ugly high stakes game - anything could happen in the end.

    Louisiana, Vermont, Nevada, and Nebraska has accepted what amounts to bribes for their votes on this bill. While millions will be funded into their states the other 46 states will have to foot increases in their Medicaid coverage and pay for theirs

    All brought to you by folks that believe when it comes to advising and funding abortions, nobody should interfere with the doctor (abortionist)-patient relationship, especially parents-- but when it comes to caring for the elderly, anonymous bureaucrats should dictate to doctors what sorts of treatment are cost-effective enough to be "approved."

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.
    Lets Make A Better World
    Authored by: xteeth on Sunday, December 20 2009 @ 01:11 PM GMT+5
    Don't tell a conservative what might be possible for tomorrow. As FDR said, "A conservative is a person with two perfectly good legs who refuses to walk forward."

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Lets Make A Deal
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Sunday, December 20 2009 @ 04:47 PM GMT+5
    ***Sweetheart deals – Bernie Sanders 10 billion dollars for VT community health centers***

    I know you get all your information from Fox, but the $10 billion wasn't for "VT community health centers." It's for community health centers around the nation.

    "The investment would more than pay for itself by saving Medicaid $23 billion over five years on reduced emergency room use and hospital costs, according to a study conducted by George Washington University," according to Sanders' office.

    So I don't know how money for health care centers that reduce costs in a health care bill is a "sweatheart deal."

    ---
    We Rock!
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: xteeth on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 07:44 AM GMT+5
    For a more detailed summary see An Overview of the New Senate Health Bill by mcjoan on Daily Kos. I would recommend investing in legal stocks for the next several decades. If Petersen has put $1 billion into killing Social Security and Medicare, you can imagine that a major new effort to thwart the government supervision of health care will be in the courts.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: pjmelton on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 01:00 PM GMT+5
    I just wanted to straighten out some facts. Xteeth wrote:

    "No rescission ---------------------------------------gone
    No pre-existing condition exclusion ----------------gone
    No lifetime cap on coverage -----------------------gone"

    Actually, it is my understanding that those three pretty much ARE the bill. So buck up, liberals. These are good things, even if we didn't get everything we wanted.

    Also, we don't have universal coverage, but my understanding is that more than 90 percent will be covered now.

    My husband says many of the things we lost can be passed through the reconciliation process, which I believe can only be used for budget-related items.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: pjmelton on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 01:02 PM GMT+5
    One more thing:

    "Assistance for those unable to afford it -----------gone"

    Wrong again! There are huge subsidies in the bill increasing access for lower-income people.

    Please, I know this bill is far from perfect, but at least be bummed about the facts instead of being bummed about what you imagine the bill says.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Change Nobody Believes In
    Authored by: SJD on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 02:28 PM GMT+5
    get ready to pay... pay more for everything.. you think those big insurance folks will just roll over and eat the taxes they will be mandated to pay.. ah just like DC.. pass the buck on to policy holders. oh wait maybe just cut the quality of care provided (paid by insurance)... either way you loose. Slash Medicare - you loose.. no new taxes on the middle class.. right

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704398304574598130440164954.html?mod=djemEditorialPage

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.

    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: Lise on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 02:44 PM GMT+5
    I liked this story. Thanks, xteeth.

    At the risk of being branded a concern monkey, I'm going to say that I'm concerned about the knock on effects of this bill on the middle class. I'm worried about the self-employed and the barely-getting-by. I'm really angry about the big giveway to insurance companies. And I don't believe this legislation will drive costs down — on the contrary, I think it is the very existence of health insurance companies that keeps costs high.

    For instance, a friend of mine recently had minor surgery with a one day hospital stay and the price tag was $35,000. Back in the day (before insurance companies) they could have never charged that much for routine surgery. No one would have been able to afford it. But when insurance companies came in, suddenly "costs" (which are really prices) went way up, through the roof as far as I can see. I'm not meant to understand why that is or has to be, but I'm not buying it. I think we should abolish private health insurance companies and go back to pay as you go, with public help for those who don't make enough to do that.

    Prices would then drop back to a level people could afford because otherwise, health care providers would get no work. Simple as that. Yeah, I know, I'm dreaming. But what we have now is crazy when you really look at it, and making it more crazy by rewarding the very people responsible for the crisis is a lot like....the financial bailout, now that I think of it. But what I meant to say was "throwing good money after bad." I'm sorry, but my gut won't let me support the Senate health care bill. They're going to have to do a lot better than that.

    But there's more — I also think this is an unfunded mandate. 30 million people are going to be expected to buy health insurance at today's prevailing rates, never mind whether they have the money or they don't, and without any meaningful effort to reduce prices so people (all people regardless of income level) can afford it. You can't tell me how to spend money I don't have. It's physically impossible. Or you can. Let's see, what'll it be? Healthcare or rent? Just kidding, but the numbers they're talking for private insurance run into the thousands per year per family.

    And that's another thing. Through the early 90s, I never paid more than $30 a month for health insurance and it was reasonably ok health insurance. So what happened? Why is it hundreds of dollars a month now?

    Oh, yeah, the Senate health care bill. It's crap. Let's stand up for ourselves and get ourselves a real bill instead of trying to build on sand.

    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: annikee on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 03:22 PM GMT+5
    Hear, hear. It all goes back to HMOs, brought to you by Reagan's cabal, and which have made health costs soar.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    If you've a bed, closet & fridge, you're richer than 75% of the people alive.
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: SJD on Monday, December 21 2009 @ 11:17 PM GMT+5
    Actually I found with a HMO the out-of-pocket cost to the consumer went down as compared to a PPO or similar.

    What happened, -we have developed such advances in diagnoses technology that everyone gets tested by the very latest and greatest, and now not later. Compare that to Canada where they wait significantly for practically any diagnostic test or surgical procedure and can only dream of having the access to PET scans or such advanced technology.

    We are consumer driven, thus we want it all and now, it cost money to have everything available and on standby. When and if we transition to a bureaucracy driven system the brakes come on, the lines form, quality and advancements go down. That simple.

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, January 08 2010 @ 10:26 AM GMT+5
    "What happened, -we have developed such advances in diagnoses technology that everyone gets tested by the very latest and greatest, and now not later."
    Never. In. My. Experience.

    'Compare that to Canada where they wait significantly for practically any diagnostic test or surgical procedure and can only dream of having the access to PET scans or such advanced technology."
    That's a lie. My cousin in Canada has had incredible, timely care in her breast cancer fight, much faster and more complete than my sisterinlaw here.



    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    If you've a bed, closet & fridge, you're richer than 75% of the people alive.
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: xteeth on Tuesday, December 22 2009 @ 07:41 AM GMT+5
    Even after reading the DailyKos summary it seems to me that these things that were put back are so encumbered with loopholes that the result will be mostly court suits. People with health problems in particular need no such thing. It just makes the delaying tactic of Republicanics available once again. They are spending many many millions on lobbying I think it will just continue in the courts. There is already much teabagger talk about the mandate being rejected by the Supreme Court. In my view, this will make the insurance corporations just that much more confident to continue as they have been till forced and then they can appeal. With their $800 billion at risk what would you expect. Still, as I said, I think this may be such a wonderful idea that this pig might be dragged back from the edge. As it is though, those that I know that have just given up their health insurance in the past year won't get it back any time soon - just too expensive. Any diddling with the terms will make necessary more giveaways to Nelson, Landrieu and the please bribe me crowd.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: SJD on Tuesday, December 22 2009 @ 01:40 PM GMT+5
    With all the misguided crap in this bill, for the good of the Country why doesn't the majority party back-off until this thing is right or until we as a country can afford it? The problem, no one thinks about Country or what made this Country great, only themselves! Just look at the sweetheart deals this week, all for a State of the Union TOTUS accomplishment speech. Does anyone wonder why congress is so despised.

    Lawsuits, heck major constitutional lawsuits that will waste time and money will go on for a decade over this. For example of more Fascism, the U.S. Senate bill limits executive pay at privately owned and operated insurance companies! These are NOT companies that received any bailouts or government help, yet the socialist-dems have taken the un-American step of limiting not only executive pay but also the profit these companies can earn! While some of you might say good, it will not stand the constitutional test.. thus why even go here, other then to grand-stand at our expense.

    Yet this is just another is a whole series of examples/actions that buck the Constitution. American was founded by people who stood tall on their own feet, supported their families and their own communities. Encouraged creative thinking and entrepreneurship. This built the wealthiest, most productive and creative nation in the world, and the only one based upon individual liberty. In the past 100 years, Democrats have been trying to alter the American society by altering its very founding traditions. They are building new traditions founded on fear, anger, envy and greed, which will assure them of power for years to come over a nation of poverty and misery.

    We use to be the envy of all nations, now we will be lucky to have a nation when all this done. Anyone speak Chinese.

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, December 23 2009 @ 05:04 PM GMT+5
    ***In the past 100 years, Democrats have been trying to alter the American society by altering its very founding traditions.***

    And in the last 35 years, the Republicans have actually done it.

    ---
    We Rock!
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: George Tirebiter on Wednesday, December 23 2009 @ 05:44 PM GMT+5
    There are 52 moderate and conservative democrats in the House of
    Representatives, the so-called "Blue Dog" Democrats. Today one of its
    members, Rep. Parker Griffith (AL), switched to the Republican Party
    citing differences over health care. If enough of them (40) switch to the
    Republican Party, a smart thing to do actually nowadays in order to keep
    office in a hostile to Democrat political environment in their states, then
    the Republicans would lead Democrats 218-217 in the House. Either
    way, Democrats are going to lose a lot of seats in the House in the
    coming elections because of the private insurance company care bill that
    looks likely to pass.

    ---
    "Oh, was it a joke, you mean?"
    - John Cage
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Wednesday, December 23 2009 @ 07:45 PM GMT+5
    Who knows what the Blew Doggs will do, but it's hard to imagine voters will turn back back to the idiots who made the mess because the latest idiots aren't any better.

    I predict a banner year for third parties in 2010. The Libertarians are poised to take seats in Texas.

    ---
    We Rock!
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: George Tirebiter on Monday, January 04 2010 @ 09:04 PM GMT+5
    You don't know voters. They will turn back. People are generally stupid. After the first world war, millions lay dead, and what did we do? We partied on into the 20's, then came the depression, and everyone suffered and it took another war with millions more dead to bring us out of our depression. So we had the 50's and the birth of rock and roll and all sorts of stupid things like TV. Then we had the protests and the 60's and all that ended nicely in 69. Then the 70's and unemployment and recession and oil prices rising. And disco to take us out of our depression. Then there were the dark 80's followed by the 90's and everyone was happy cause Clinton was President and there were jobs and deals with banksters like the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act and the mergers of the media corporations. and then came the aughts, the 2000-2010 and everyone lived in the bubble and the banksters made out like bandits and everyone else was caught with their pants down and they still like having their pants down as we march warlike and terrorist-scared into the next decade. When will this end? The left is too wimpy, they don't want to arm themselves

    ---
    "Oh, was it a joke, you mean?"
    - John Cage
    Quinnipiac - Public Says NO
    Authored by: SJD on Tuesday, December 22 2009 @ 09:29 PM GMT+5

    December 22, 2009 - U.S. Voters Oppose Health Care Plan By Wide Margin, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Voters Say 3-1, Plan Should Not Pay For Abortions

    http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1408

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.

    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: GSamson on Thursday, December 24 2009 @ 06:08 PM GMT+5
    A deeply flawed bill, no doubt, but as Ezra Klein has meticulously laid
    out (and done so in a fashion that avoids the tendentiousness and
    reality-bending emotionalism of xteeth's post), it represents the most
    significant reform to our Health Insurance system in decades. And for
    this, Obama wins not only the continued enmity of Republicans (an
    enmity inspired merely by his existence), but the castigation of
    progressive purists who must be forgetting how well their non-
    compromising support of Ralph Nader in 2000 worked out for the
    country. Yeah, we got involved in two wars, doubled the national
    debt, had our basic constitutional freedoms assaulted, discarded our
    Geneva Convention obligations by torturing people, and on and on and
    on, but at least YOU STOOD ON PRINCIPLE. Now, go back to your
    sippy-cup and finish your juice.
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: xteeth on Friday, December 25 2009 @ 10:24 AM GMT+5
    So, hoping and working for the best thing, or a better thing, or a good thing, or part of a good thing, or a little bit of a good thing or................... somehow indicates that the activist so involved is childish and unaware of how things actually work in our country. I would agree with that and feel not in the least chastised. GSamson is just at one level of the continuum that starts with 60 years of the Republicants doing nothing and subverting and killing anything the rest of us would have liked. Continues on through the "both sides are just hopeless - throw the bums out," through "this is as good as we could hope for," through this is better than nothing," through "you better like this thing because of all the work put into it," through actually this is an immense change for the better," through "this is exactly what I promised during the campaign, you ingrate and on and on.

    There is no principle here to stand upon. After eight years of lowered expectations all the way to torture, rendition, DOMA, gays in military, homeowner abandonment, stock broker and banker simpering, the actual adults in the crowd hoped for more. Since we are the ones who actually do the work in the fields, getting crushed again is no real surprise but it is fun to see all the fellow travelers revealed for their low expectations. Thanks, but I am keeping mine high. I've had it with the lying, corruption, deception, screwing average people to get the last drop of blood out of the stone for the rich. But that is nothing new. I have been fighting for more for years and plan to continue but don't be surprised if it gets to the place that the sycophants to capitalism find themselves under the bus where they have tried to place the rest of us and make us think that it is "tendentiousness and reality-bending emotionalism" that is at fault. Well it isn't. It is the timidness covering up the thoughtlessness, enshrouded in clouds of self serving self righteousness. I'm just 'sayin'.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: pjmelton on Friday, December 25 2009 @ 08:11 PM GMT+5
    So, do the idealists in the crowd have an alternative bill to offer the president to sign? (I'm just sayin'!)

    I have the exact same hopes as you. Just not the same expectations.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: xteeth on Saturday, December 26 2009 @ 08:03 AM GMT+5
    Over and over I keep coming back to that little arrogant ^&(*^*&( Kucinich. He has been right on average two years before anyone else about everything but of course we can't vote for him because he can't be elected - because we can't vote for him because he can't be elected because - because we can't vote for him because he can't be elected because- because we can't vote for him because he can't be elected because- because we can't vote for him because he can't be elected because- because we can't vote for him because he can't be elected because- because we can't vote for him because he can't be elected because.............

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Saturday, December 26 2009 @ 09:14 AM GMT+5
    >> because we can't vote for him because he can't be elected because-
    because we can't vote for him because he can't be elected
    because.............<<

    "Reality bites, doesn't it?"
    ---President Nader
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: pjmelton on Saturday, December 26 2009 @ 10:23 AM GMT+5
    Dennis Kucinich being president would not solve the fundamental problems in our legislative system.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: xteeth on Sunday, December 27 2009 @ 08:27 AM GMT+5
    Now who is expecting too much. I just think it would be nice to have our government leader be right about something at least once. I'm convinced that without taking the money out of the political process we are in fact doomed. Gravel's proposal is the only one that I have heard of that might work but direct voting has the problem of protecting the minority - even if they are Republicants. It is so sad to be continually held back by your (my) wish to be fair when that is not shared by the other side. How are those death panels working out for you Isaacson? (Republicant from Georgia that first proposed them) You can't argue with liars.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: pjmelton on Sunday, December 27 2009 @ 07:55 PM GMT+5
    If you have a semi-reasonable legislative system, you don't have to argue with liars. Or you at least don't have to win. Electing the right president does not change the bizarre deliberative body that is the U.S. Senate. Without the senate to deal with, we would have had single-payer years ago, just like other civilized countries.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: xteeth on Monday, December 28 2009 @ 08:35 AM GMT+5
    Way back in the years of dinosaurs (coinhabited with humans as I remember) in college I did some debating. I was fascinated to find out that there were many ways to attack an opponent that had absolutely nothing to do which comparing arguments and attempting to decide which had the most force. A very common tactic (used it myself) devolved from the observation that you can make attacking statements much faster than you can refute such attacks. Another was called changing the grounds. Since the scoring system is based upon the number of unrefuted arguments not necessarily their veracity. So the Republicanic, being uninhibited by fidelity to truth, not interested in actually determining the argument with the most force just produces whatever seems to use similar words, often left undefined, and quickly expressed. No need to refute anything, just make another statement - quick. Death panels, end of Medicare, end of Medicaid, break the budget, socialism, communism, you know the riff.

    Once the limit on lying is removed (no cost for experts being wrong - or even memory) this is the only argumentary proceedure necessary if you goal is to stop anything through dogma or confusion. That is the Cantservative goal. Go back to the Industrial Revolution and assume that you will be Carnegie or Fisk, not one of the women from the Triangle Shirt Factory. Just look at Kristol. He hasn't been right about anything for years. Yet he gets a New York Times column. I can't tell, and don't really care whether there is some sort of connection with the greed, bribery, corruption, sexual degradation, wars etc. that characterize the Republicants just now but it sure makes a coherent whole. With things as neatly divided as they currently are, all that needs to happen is peal off a few truth seekers and the majority shifts to those that have got theirs and regard any change as degradation. Much easier to continue current looting than think up new ways. Almost none of the rich people here or anywhere made their own fortunes. That entrepreneurial force is quite gone from most of the oligarch families - the progeny of Sam Wall are some of the richest in the world. It is so much easier to buy information from which you can profit than think up the new things that used to support American business. Without the threat of Japanese car makers, GM would be trying to sell you cardboard boxes with poorly attached wheels and all auto dealers would be located at the top of hills. CAFE standards? Seat Belts? crash protection? that was Nader not GM. They just continue with the bull about the end of corporations and jobs, need for bailouts, union busting and on and on.

    Their CEO doesn't drive enough to care. MBA's manipulate stock and finance not invent business opportunities. Ugh!

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: pjmelton on Monday, December 28 2009 @ 01:34 PM GMT+5
    I'm not sure what you're getting at. My point is that regardless of how much popular support something has, the senate is a bottleneck the size of a capillary tube.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Sunday, December 27 2009 @ 11:14 AM GMT+5
    I've been disappointed to see so-called progressive talking heads flogging this deeply flawed bill, make excuses for it, suggesting we should be willing to accept it, to settle for it, rather than calling it what it is: a tremendous failure.

    I understand that it does some fraction of the things we sought from health care reform, and perhaps it is actually the best we can get from a corrupt, corporate-run system of government. But that doesn't mean we have to pretend that is what it isn't: acceptable. Where was all this pragmatism on the left when the Republicans passed their Medicare prescription drug program? It, too, was a big giveaway to corporations that also had some benefit to patients.

    We all thought the republicans' Medicare drug program was an outrage. I guess my outrage isn't partisan.

    And it's becoming increasingly clear to me that the Rahng Emanuel administration is failing us.

    ---
    We Rock!
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: pjmelton on Sunday, December 27 2009 @ 07:58 PM GMT+5
    I see why people are criticizing the bill. But why people actually want the bill not to pass, when it has crucial, life-saving elements in it for the working poor, I simply do not understand. It's like a starving person turning away bananas because other people get to eat caviar. The other people still get the caviar, but you've decided to continue starving? Makes no sense to me.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: SJD on Monday, December 28 2009 @ 09:23 AM GMT+5
    ............ Just think, it's likely to add more uninsured. Some things just don't change, freedom of choice is a good deal now! The bill imposes a fine which gradually escalates to $750 for those who fail to buy coverage. So what? A lot of folks would gladly pay $750 in order to avoid 4 or 10 times that much in annual premiums. Folks who take care of themselves, eat right and exercise will do this. BUT now, under the new rules they can always get "insurance" after the fact, if something goes wrong. Heck, if you can stay healthy for the next couple of decades, you'll save a fortune. Thanks US Senate for giving me more freedoms! -The downside, the insurance industry will get blind-sided with huge mandates of providing care.. guess what, pass it on to policy holders, producing nothing more then a financial tailspin for policy holders and the industry, perhaps the master plan from day one to screw the system! Gov to the rescue?

    The nerve to even call this bill reform or cost reduction! Nothing in this bill goes to the heart of the problems like: -regulatory bans of insurance competition, the out-of-control medical malpractice industry, federal programs and subsidies, and a tax code that favors a third-party payment system.

    JOKE

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Monday, December 28 2009 @ 12:31 PM GMT+5
    That's not the way it seems to me. It seems more like you're getting a handful of birdseed from someone who is throwing bananas in the dumpster, but you're being charged for caviar, which would be bad enough, but they're trying to tell you that the birdseed is steak.

    What bothers me about the progressive talking heads is that they seem to be making excuses for why we should SUPPORT the bill, not for why we shouldn't oppose it.

    I don't know if I want this bill to fail - for a couple of reasons - but I do want congress to know that it is not acceptable. It is not reform. They have not done their job. I will not congratulate them for their work. I will vote for anyone who has a better idea.

    I will not pretend this bill is "close 'nuff for guvmint work" just so the left can pretend they've achieved some kind of victory, or so they can all breath a sigh of relief and start collecting campaign donations from the insurance companies.

    For most of the first 28 years of my life I had taxpayer supported, single-payer, socialized medicine (thanks, by the way). For about a decade after that, I had no health insurance - and became gravely ill once as a result. It took me years to fully recover. So I'm not insensitive to what it's like to need health care. Now I have expensive but inadequate employer-sponsored coverage.

    I think this bill is going to compound the problems that we have now. A decade from now, we'll still have millions without health care.

    ---
    We Rock!
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: SJD on Monday, January 04 2010 @ 08:24 PM GMT+5
    IT'S BACK. Again they want closed doors to protect them politically. But the secrete is out! There's no secrete that this has been anything but transparent or bipartisan. There is going to be a lot to answerer for come November.

    http://www.usnews.com/blogs/peter-roff/2010/01/04/democratic-leaders-plan-secret-health-reform-deliberations.html

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.

    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, January 05 2010 @ 08:11 AM GMT+5
    They've learned well from their Republican predecessors. This is exactly how they operated during their reign. It's a sucky way to run a country, but it is kind of funny to watch the Republicans feign shock and horror that anyone would stoop to their tactics. Even funnier to hear their cult members play along.

    ---
    We Rock!
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: SJD on Tuesday, January 05 2010 @ 08:55 AM GMT+5
    There for, according to you, 2 wrongs make a right? Considering the majority party rode in on a carpet of purity & change.

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.
    What The Health Happened?
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, January 05 2010 @ 10:37 PM GMT+5
    Maybe you weren't really paying attention. It's right according to republicans and conservatives of three years ago, not me.

    ---
    We Rock!
    C-SPAN Calls out the Dems
    Authored by: SJD on Tuesday, January 05 2010 @ 02:04 PM GMT+5
    Even C-Span is totally frustrated with the Dem's secrete meetings and nontransparent posture on all that is health-care.

    See the letter they recently send Pelosi - http://www.c-span.org/pdf/C-SPAN%20Health%20Care%20Letter.pdf

    Flash back:
    January 2008 - Obama campaigns very heavily on transparency especially for health-care reform (on C-Span) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Api4fUziAnI

    July 2009 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF6iyqpo36c&feature=related

    Are we a banana republic? It appears so. Call me an idealist, but I've always believed and observed that a sign of a leader is to bring all parties together and give everyone some degree of ownership. Short of this, it's destined to long term failure. Perhaps this publicity will force open the senate-house negations to the public, confer a degree of bipartisan support, but don't bet on it.

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.

    I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!
    Authored by: pjmelton on Tuesday, January 05 2010 @ 04:31 PM GMT+5
    SJD, the word "secrete" is a verb describing the release of a chemical on a cellular level - in one's stomach, for example.

    The adjective you are looking for is "SECRET."

    Phew. I feel much better.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!
    Authored by: SJD on Tuesday, January 05 2010 @ 04:41 PM GMT+5
    Thanks.. that dam spell checker - me, also a good sign of no cut and paste!

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.
    C-SPAN Calls out the Dems
    Authored by: AlanF on Wednesday, January 06 2010 @ 08:09 AM GMT+5
    I believe the majority of Americans are utterly disgusted with how this whole grubby affair has been conjured up behind closed doors. The progressives' responsible for ramming through this government takeover of the nation's healthcare most certainly have a hidden agenda, and it seems controlling or lowering the cost of healthcare is not part of it. And when you look at what they had to do to buy the votes needed to pass it in the senate, it becomes even more of an insult to our democracy.

    Hidden agenda
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, January 06 2010 @ 09:08 AM GMT+5
    "progressives' responsible for ramming through this government takeover of the nation's healthcare most certainly have a hidden agenda"

    Any thoughts on what that might be?

    I think there is actually a semi-hidden progressive agenda: a wedge in the door that opens eventually into health care for everyone at a reasonable cost. The kind of thing the rest of the civilized world enjoys, in other words. If the progressives had actually written the bill, as you suggest, that door would be wide open right now. Oh well.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Hidden agenda
    Authored by: AlanF on Wednesday, January 06 2010 @ 12:43 PM GMT+5
    We may have to wait until the bill is passed, before we are actually granted the opportunity to know all the details. I suspect the ultimate goal is government controlled, universal health care although that won't happen in this cycle.

    Hidden agenda
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, January 06 2010 @ 01:01 PM GMT+5
    "I suspect the ultimate goal is government controlled, universal health care although that won't happen in this cycle."

    I'll go with the "universal" part. What I don't get is why you think this is a problem.

    I'm always a little curious about what conservatives think liberals' true motives are. As a bleeding heart myself, I am in favor of efficient programs that actually help people. In fact, I think that is the government's job: to make sure our entire society thrives by ensuring that everyone, regardless of their native advantages or lack thereof, has access to a good education, decent food and housing, good health care, and eventually (as a direct result) a good job. Upward mobility is essential to democracy, and it does not happen by itself. Real bootstrappers (like our current president) are quite extraordinary, and are very, very few and far between.

    I have never understood the whole meme about how liberals just want "Big Government," as though it were an end in itself. Who would even benefit from that?

    Although in reality the beneficiaries of "big government" - and the biggest part of the government is our morbidly obese military budget - tend to be rich conservatives. Maybe it's all just a "don't throw me in the briar patch" ruse?

    Anyway, Alan, why do you think progressives want universal health care, except to, you know, make the world a better place? Do you see some kind of nefarious motives here?

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Hidden agenda
    Authored by: SJD on Wednesday, January 06 2010 @ 03:28 PM GMT+5
    Can't speak for Alan, perhaps in a true form of caring for a fellow human or family you're correct. Nobody doesn't want some reform, but it's an Alice in Wonderland fantasy to believe any politician has you in mind. The public understands that in order to go to a universal system the present system has to be subjected to a down-grade and corruption that only the government can do, Medicare comes to mind. (If they could show a creditable fix for Medicare, verified over time, perhaps the sentiments might be different)

    The public knows this will lead straight to a total dependency and a universal entitlement that may never be voted out of existence, only to bloat (the IRS comes to mind). Then there is the Constitution, -a huge waste of money coming our way as arguments of the bill's nuances delay and further bloat the system with work around and PC mentalities. Otherwise it's very flawed, but the Dem's know it's flawed, rather then step back and come up with a plan that addresses all concerns, they insist on pushing it through for historical bragging rights. What must infuriate some, the party is willing to throw under the bus the majority of 2010 incumbents to achieve this goal.

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.
    Hidden agenda
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, January 06 2010 @ 03:41 PM GMT+5
    "Nobody doesn't want some reform"

    Sounds like everybody wants reform then? So...where is the conservative plan? There isn't one. They were invited in to help write the bill, and refused. For historical bragging rights?

    No, this is a philosophical issue with your party, and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Hidden agenda
    Authored by: SJD on Wednesday, January 06 2010 @ 03:46 PM GMT+5
    No, there is plenty of alternative plans, but they were never allowed to come to the floor!

    The Principles included:
    Do No Harm
    Patient Control and Portability
    Improving Quality of Care and Lowering Costs
    Funding Medical Research
    Protecting Rights of Conscience
    Medicare
    Medicaid
    Building a Health Care System for Future Emergencies

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.
    Hidden agenda
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, January 06 2010 @ 04:07 PM GMT+5
    Is Medicare a principle?

    The fact is, Republicans do not want a comprehensive plan, and it is for ideological reasons - not because they disagree with the details of this particular plan. In other words, the party is defined by believing that comprehensive health reform is morally wrong. All the crap about fiscal responsibility is smoke and mirrors - as evidenced by the fact that the bloated military budget is untouchable. At least libertarians have the decency and consistency to want to cut the military budget too. Republicans don't have the backbone for fight for anything so practical.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Hidden agenda
    Authored by: AlanF on Thursday, January 07 2010 @ 08:44 AM GMT+5
    I believe what Americans really want is quality, affordable healthcare, without government interference in the doctor /patient relationship. In addition, there are three glaring elements missing from the current package: tort reform, interstate competition for heath insurance companies, and prescription drug pricing reform. Our politicians just can’t seem to put together a proposal that makes sense, is cost effective and free of special interests. This is what I find so frustrating about this whole process. Add to that the bribery and thuggary required to secure the votes of politicians who don’t like what they see, and you have a fatally flawed process that the majority of Americans clearly see. This is a bad bill. We need reform but we need to start over again, after the 2010 elections at which time both sides will be required to work together.

    Hidden agenda
    Authored by: pjmelton on Thursday, January 07 2010 @ 10:03 AM GMT+5
    Tort reform has zero cost benefits for anyone but doctors. I'm not against it, but this idea that it's some kind of magic bean is beyond ridiculous.

    We have interstate "competition" with credit card companies. How is that working out for us? All the credit card companies move to the states with the least consumer-friendly banking regulations, and you end up with an oligopoly. That is exactly what we need to avoid.

    I believe the bill does address prescription drug pricing, but I'm not sure. A lot of things have dropped out to please the most conservative Democrats.

    I agree with you that our legislative system is broken, but anyone who actually wants reform - as all you conservatives claim you do - should stop nitpicking about details like tort reform and push to get the basics through. This bill has the basic stuff we need: protecting people from being shut out of the insurance market, and expanding benefits to the working poor. It's a foundation to build on with smaller legislation later. If we don't have the foundation, there's nothing to build on.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Tort Reform
    Authored by: AlanF on Thursday, January 07 2010 @ 02:20 PM GMT+5

    “Tort reform has zero cost benefits for anyone but doctors. I'm not against it, but this idea that it's some kind of magic bean is beyond ridiculous.”

    You may want to re-think that statement. Perhaps this link will shed some light on how tort reform could benefit the healthcare reform movement.

    Tort Reform

    Tort Reform
    Authored by: pjmelton on Thursday, January 07 2010 @ 03:51 PM GMT+5
    From a 2006 Congressional Budget Office report:

    "CBO now estimates that implementing a typical package of tort reform proposals nationwide would reduce total U.S. health care spending by about 0.5 percent (about $11 billion in 2009). That figure is the sum of a direct reduction in spending of 0.2 percent from lower medical liability premiums and an additional indirect reduction of 0.3 percent from slightly less utilization of health care services. (Those estimates take into account the fact that because many states have already implemented some of the changes in the package, a significant fraction of the potential cost savings has already been realized.)"

    $11 billion isn't nothing, but half a percent is as good as.

    As I said, I'm not entirely against tort reform, but acting like it's going to solve all our problems is simply insane.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Tort Reform
    Authored by: AlanF on Friday, January 08 2010 @ 08:05 AM GMT+5

    "In a Massachusetts Medical Society survey published last November, 83 percent of Bay State physicians cited the fear of being sued in their decisions to practice defensive medicine. According to the 900 doctors anonymously surveyed, on average, 18 percent to 28 percent of tests, procedures, referrals and consultations and 13 percent of hospitalizations were ordered to avoid lawsuits. All of this adds at least $1.4 billion to annual health care costs in Massachusetts alone, and national estimates range as high as $200 billion."

    The CBO rarely gets it right. We can go back and forth all day. Bottom line is tort reform should be part of the reform package. Period.

    Tort Reform
    Authored by: pjmelton on Friday, January 08 2010 @ 08:50 AM GMT+5
    That "statistic" is based on a survey of doctors who want their insurance costs to go down. And the CBO always gets it wrong? On what basis do you make such a ridiculous claim?

    Maybe tort reform should be part of the package. However, it is a relatively minor nail that Republicans have been trying to hammer in for two or three decades. Killing a bill because it does not include tort reform is absurd.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Tort Reform
    Authored by: tiny on Friday, January 08 2010 @ 09:23 AM GMT+5
    The trial lawyers association are perhaps the most powerful lobbyists in Congress and gave most money to candidates in the last election cycle, almost double cpompared to the next group. I saw it here in a post as a link a few months back.
    Clearly history has shown it will take a huge effort to get any tort reform and perhaps the only way of any success, however small, has to done by holding health care "hostage." Its just another buyoff, and there have been plenty of those to get to where the healthcare bill is today. Thta's how business is done in Congress, I guess.
    Tort Reform
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Friday, January 08 2010 @ 11:20 AM GMT+5
    Yes, it's kind of like surveying these conservative tea party dingbats on whether Obama is "socialist." Not hard to guess what the unanimous result will be, but it won't change the reality that he's just as corporatist/capitalist as his predecessor.

    Might as well survey trial lawyers, too.

    ---
    We Rock!
    Tort Reform
    Authored by: AlanF on Friday, January 08 2010 @ 03:58 PM GMT+5

    “CBO always gets it wrong?” That’s not what I said, but just for the sake argument, in the early stages of this process, the CBO came out with their initial analysis that Obamacare, as proposed, was going to add mightily to the national debt. The head of the CBO was promptly summoned to the White House for a meeting of the minds. Ever since then, the CBO numbers have been far more gentle. Take it for what it’s worth. And, if you have examples of where the CBO has been accurate over time, by all means share them. Also, as for surveying doctors, who else is better qualified to comment on this subject.

    Tort Reform
    Authored by: pjmelton on Saturday, January 09 2010 @ 01:53 PM GMT+5
    I did misremember what you had written. Sorry about that.

    But I'm afraid the burden of proof is still on you to back up what you did say. What evidence do you have that the CBO is seldom right?

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    CBO Accuracy
    Authored by: AlanF on Sunday, January 10 2010 @ 10:09 AM GMT+5
    We are running out of space, but start with this: CBO Accuracy
    CBO Accuracy
    Authored by: pjmelton on Sunday, January 10 2010 @ 12:04 PM GMT+5
    The intertubes are infinite, Alan.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Hidden agenda
    Authored by: annikee on Friday, January 08 2010 @ 10:30 AM GMT+5
    It's on line. Go read it. Unlike The Patriot Act, which wasn't.

    ---
    Freedom and fear are natural enemies.

    If you've a bed, closet & fridge, you're richer than 75% of the people alive.
    Hidden agenda
    Authored by: pjmelton on Friday, January 08 2010 @ 07:10 PM GMT+5
    Yes, but it's SO many pages long! Wah!

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Here We Go!
    Authored by: SJD on Friday, January 08 2010 @ 10:20 AM GMT+5
    Ben Nelson: We Should Have Waited on Health Care:

    http://www.fremonttribune.com/articles/2010/01/07/news/local/doc4b44af1b90306516425283.txt

    Got to love these hind sight politicians, all worried about November, only know realizing, -It's The Economy, Stupid!

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.

    Here We Go!
    Authored by: SJD on Friday, January 08 2010 @ 10:38 AM GMT+5
    Just a test, no one has caught my typo of the day... yet. I now know who!

    ---
    Don't tell Obama What Comes After a Trillion.
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