Sunday, January 17 2010 @ 12:05 AM GMT+4 Contributed by: Anonymous
Does anyone have a notion as to why the police were stopping people on Putney Road this afternoon? There were three cruisers set up speed trap style just waving seemingly random cars over to the side of the road. I'd be curious to know what was going on. Thank you.
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Police Stops?
Authored by: tomaidh on Sunday, January 17 2010 @ 08:23 PM GMT+4
I don't know about Putney Rd, but they were out with Radar this morning about 10 on Western Ave, near the Fire House. A friend was clocked at 17 over the limit, but the nice cop reduced the ticket to 10 over.
The fine will be $90.00
Happy Sunday.
Authored by: pjmelton on Sunday, January 17 2010 @ 11:40 PM GMT+4
I have to confess that I always chuckle when someone gets pulled over on my street (that would be Western Ave.). I'm sure some part of me is feeling bad for your friend, but my dark side has mostly taken over and is feeling absolute pleasure in his or her humiliation and fine. The sidewalk is WAY too close to the road, and there are WAY too many crosswalks for anyone to be going 47 MPH in my neighborhood!
These are my kids we're talking about here, and if it were up to me, I'd like to see the police out every day. Not just Sunday morning, which is usual. OTOH, I never used to see them at all, so once a week is a very, very welcome change. Thank you, police! I'm sure it is not fun to pull people over, but you really are helping save lives.
47! Unbelievable. But, sadly, not unusual.
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"Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
Authored by: annikee on Sunday, January 17 2010 @ 11:36 PM GMT+4
Could be anything- seatbelt check, sobriety check, anything. I can't count the number of times my friends report being stopped. They don't have to have a real reason. One friend was stopped for having a rosary hanging from her rearview mirror. How, in the dark, on an unlit street, an officer several carlengths behind her could see it- who knows? She was detained for an ID check but not ticketed.
I asked former Chief John Martin about the questions they ask, i.e. "Where are you going?, Where are you coming from?" and you don't have to answer them. However, post-Sept.11th booklets about questioning citizens told police to beware of anyone who brings up their Constitutional rights... so I guess, resistance is futile?
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Freedom and fear are natural enemies.
If you've a bed, closet & fridge, you're richer than 75% of the people alive.
Authored by: annikee on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 12:46 AM GMT+4
If you don't know about MIAC, here's their website's list of documents the public is allowed to view: http://www.miacx.org/(X(1)S(ztv13t452sm21ozcezobneen))/default.aspx/MenuItemID/253/MenuGroup/Home-MO.htm
(copy & paste it- I'm computer-limited)
--- Freedom and fear are natural enemies.
If you've a bed, closet & fridge, you're richer than 75% of the people alive.
Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 08:04 AM GMT+4
I'm with Melton on this. In fact, why did the cop reduce the ticket to 10 mph. If your friend managed to slow down that quickly because he saw the police presence the ticket should have been for the 17mph. Driving 47 down Western Avenue is totally unacceptable. and the problem with people who drive the speed limit is that these people get on your tail and try to speed you up creating even more danger.
It's not just the pedestrians . . . some main roads like Western and Putney constantly have rear-end collisions because people need to turn and others are driving 40 or 50 mph like they're on a highway and then don't have time to stop or don't even see the turn signals. It happens constantly. So no sympathy from me...drive the speed limit and you won't have a problem. Speed and get a ticket, don't complain, you were breaking the law.
Authored by: annikee on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 09:32 AM GMT+4
I'm with you all against the speeders. Why would anyone feel the need to speed around here anyway? It's just careless and dangerous. Many of our roads are narrow, don't have navigable sidewalks (even in summer) and really, except for rushing to the hospital for emergencies, there's no excuse. I'm glad that driver got a ticket.
I do hope that a Bratt PD spokesperson will address the arbitrary stop issue, though.
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Freedom and fear are natural enemies.
If you've a bed, closet & fridge, you're richer than 75% of the people alive.
Authored by: Maus Anon E on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 12:39 PM GMT+4
***these people get on your tail and try to speed you up ***
Oh, I love those people. They have the opposite effect on me. When people get too close to my bumper they suddenly find they're behind a very slow and nervous driver who keeps jamming on his brakes and swerving around for invisible road hazards. In this kind of weather, I also like to drive into the crap in the center of the road and cover their windshields with sand, salt and slush.
Authored by: pjmelton on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 02:32 PM GMT+4
I pump my brakes until they back off. If that doesn't work, I make eye contact in the rearview mirror and make hand gestures and mouth "BACK OFF." This makes me look insane and possibly dangerous, which usually works.
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"Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
Authored by: tomaidh on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 01:23 PM GMT+4
A rosary on a rearview mirror? I'm sure the BVM would consider this a dangerous obstruction. Worse still are those obnoxious dingles that handicapped people use to advertise their disabilities!
Traffic calming / Speed limit vs. safety / What was the original question?
Authored by: DanAxtell on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 07:24 PM GMT+4
The rage in these comments might discourage some diverse voices. Although I am not personally diverse, I am interested in those ideas, too. I would have liked to hear a police officer's thoughts on the original subject, but I understand it would be hard to helpfully address all the divergent thoughts and strong beliefs at this point.
I use the word "rage" deliberately. We read here of one driver's recommendation to brake suddenly to teach another driver a lesson. That's in the definition of road rage and it is illegal in some states.
I don't understand the presumption of recklessness against the driver mentioned in the first comment. The prosecution (police officer) formally accused the driver of going less than 10 mph above the speed limit. There is no reason to think that the officer had reliable evidence of anything else. Everyone posting here has driven more than 30 mph through West B.
I don't think we have enough information to say that such driving is dangerous out by the West B fire station at 10:00 on a Sunday morning. I'm not recommending; I'm just doubting—and I'm talking about safety, not law enforcement. It's a wide, straight road. If there are no parked cars and no pedestrians and no traffic in West B, is 30 mph the maximum safe speed, just the same as when the road is busy?
If traffic safety is the concern, then there is so much else to do first before we burden the police with the responsibility of enforcing order. The last traffic death in Brattleboro (Oct. 10, 2008) was partly due to the danger of on-street parking—on High Street, the same road we're talking about.
So how serious are we about safety? Can we eliminate on-street parking and then narrow the road (a proven traffic calming technique)? We would reduce snow removal costs and salt damage, too. Traffic calming techniques like curb extensions have worked in Bellows Falls (at least, they work on me).
And while we're trying to avoid asking the police to do the impossible, can we get rid of the illegal 15 mph speed limit on Green Street? Anyone would beat a ticket there by citing Title 23 Section 1007. It is an example showing that we can't count on posted speed limits to define what is right and good.
Traffic calming / Speed limit vs. safety / What was the original question?
Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 08:53 PM GMT+4
This isn't about road rage, it's about speeders breaking the law. I read the post as the driver being clocked at 17 mph OVER the speed limit and the officer reducing the ticket to 10 as a nice gesture. My position is that if someone is driving 17 miles over the speed limit on Putney or Western they would be driving 42 mph which is just under highway speed on a lcoal road where there are pedestrians, people turning into driveways and side streets and children walking home from schools. 42 miles an hour is too fast on these city streets, sorry, that's just a fact. This is why these streets have constant fender bender accidents and it's amazing there haven't been more serious injuries.
As for those who tempt fate by slowing down when someone tail gates I just drive the speed limit, don't even have to slow down and it drives them nuts because they can't speed. Who's got the road rage I ask.....heh, not me, I'm just following the law.
Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 09:09 PM GMT+4
Slowing down gradually, like when driving from the 40 mph zone of
Rt. 9 into West B where the speed limit drops to 30, is the right thing
to do. But suddenly braking so that the person driving behind you, too
closely or not, could hit your car, is the height of recklessness and
irresponsibility. I agree with the previous poster that this is indeed
"road rage". What if you had a baby or young child in a car seat and
you suddenly slammed on the brakes to "teach the tailgating speeder
a lesson"? If that person hit your car, they'd be liable, but what if
your child got injured or killed in the process? Or even without the
youngster in the back seat, what about the mess you would cause by
making another traffic accident happen?
It's totally fine to slow down in slow zones, and I do it all the time.
But to swerve, suddenly slam on the brakes, etc. is immature road
rage. If I were a cop, I'd prosecute both drivers: the tailgating
speeder AND the brake-happy "lesson teacher".
Traffic calming is the way to go. Zoning for desirable effects is
preferable to vigilante behavior. And for those who wish to take the
law into their own hands or brake the laws, that's why we have cops.
Drive safely Brattleboro, and act your age, not your rage.
Authored by: pjmelton on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 09:42 PM GMT+4
"But suddenly braking so that the person driving behind you, too
closely or not, could hit your car, is the height of recklessness and
irresponsibility."
This is actually illegal in Vermont, I think. That's one reason why I pump my brakes to get their attention, instead of slamming to a halt. It's not rage that causes me to do this, but the fact that I might have to stop unexpectedly for a pedestrian any second, and I don't want this jerk slamming into me and my kids if that happens. It is defensive driving. If my technique does not work, I sometimes pull over so the idiot can get to the Vermont Country Deli just a little faster without endangering me and my family further.
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"Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 11:41 PM GMT+4
I often pull over when someone is driving like a completely aggressive
jerk. But by driving slowly (i.e. the speed limit or only a couple of
miles over it) I feel that I am serving as a traffic calmer myself.
Driving out to Newfane on Rt. 30 is the worst. People often go way
over the posted speed, and in that situation I often just pull over to
let them get their 25 seconds of faster time. Once IN Newfane
however, I go the speed limit. There was a man killed in that town a
few years ago by a speeding drinker and I think of that often when
driving past the center of town there.
Getting rear ended is a concern on many VT roadways because in this
state, people tailgate. I've noticed that.
Traffic calming / Speed limit vs. safety / What was the original question?
Authored by: DanAxtell on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 09:51 PM GMT+4
SpudHill was not one of the brakers, but I do want to make one salient correction to his/her post. The officer gave a ticket for "less than 10" mph above the speed limit, not 10 mph above. In Vermont, there is no penalty for going 10 mph above the speed limit, only "more than 10" or "less than 10" (See the bottom of Title 23 Section 2502).
My point is that we can't count on the law to provide the sensible solutions we need. SpudHill experiences constant accidents on Western Avenue. Law enforcement has not been the solution and rarely is. I'm thinking of the roundabout at Exit 3. It succeeded at slowing down traffic where law enforcement could not. I'd like to see some suggestions here for controlling traffic speed that might actually work.
Traffic calming / Speed limit vs. safety / What was the original question?
Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 11:29 PM GMT+4
Here's what the post was, see first post under initilal thread
"A friend was clocked at 17 over the limit, but the nice cop reduced the ticket to 10 over."
That means they were going at least 42 mph.
I have a solution for the problem at least on these two streets. Drive the frickin' speed limit and start ticketing those who go too fast, and ticket them for the amount over they were driving. Would be a nice bit of revenue and would solve the problem shortly. There's a reason for the speed limit being what it is and some more serious and larger speed signs and some serious ticketing would slow things down.
Traffic calming / Speed limit vs. safety / What was the original question?
Authored by: annikee on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 10:32 PM GMT+4
"Everyone posting here has driven more than 30 mph through West B.""
Now who's presuming? I can tell youin perfect honesty I have never driven thru WB at more than 30 mph, until the limit change out past Disco Bev.
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Freedom and fear are natural enemies.
If you've a bed, closet & fridge, you're richer than 75% of the people alive.
Traffic calming / Speed limit vs. safety / What was the original question?
Authored by: DanAxtell on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 01:05 AM GMT+4
I stand corrected. And I'm behind you all the way (I guess), even if it be 6:00 a.m. on a weekend.
I'm in favor of making West B a slow corridor, but I would like to see it done with the "traffic calming" techniques so that we all adjust our speeds without having to take our eyes off the road to frequently check our speedometers. Traffic calming would make use of human nature instead of relying on police to fight human nature.
Traffic calming / Speed limit vs. safety / What was the original question?
Authored by: pjmelton on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 12:12 PM GMT+4
"Traffic calming would make use of human nature instead of relying on police to fight human nature."
This does work for most people, but enforcement is still necessary for many drivers, especially people from other states who just got done skiing and only see my road as an annoying byway that gets them to I-91. Mmm, I love the smell of truck brakes in the morning.
In my dream world, there is a bypass that gives the neighborhood back to the people who actually live here. What traffic calming techniques would you advocate for? Narrowing roads is not actually that practical in a lot of spots, because in many places there is hardly room for a bike in the shoulder already.
But maybe you should answer in a new thread, because that's not what this one was actually about.
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"Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Monday, January 18 2010 @ 11:49 PM GMT+4
Ever since that damned Cumberland Farms Twinkie Store (& gas pumps)
went up, the speed of many drivers has slowed down to below the posted
40 mph, as much as 10-15 miles per hour slower. It's the weirdest thing,
but in the 40 mph zone they drive about 30 mph, and once they get to
West B where they should go no faster than 30, they SPEED UP! I can't
figure out why this is. I'm sure the new sprawl clustered around the
Dunkin' Fat Pills/Shell Station, coupled with the Cumbersome Farms
store have made a difference to the 40 mph zone, but in West B folks
should be slowing down, not speeding up. Anyone else notice this?
Authored by: mr.mike on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 12:00 AM GMT+4
You'll probably find that this phenomenon is caused by the fact that because they have just spent 45 minutes on a winding white knuckle ride on a road that had to be run the way it is due to the fact that we value the life of tadpoles more than humans. They now get to drive on a straight rd and it's only instinctive to feel they can drive faster.
Rt 9 is as deadly in June as it is in January. It would make a better amusement park ride than a state highway.
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The four boxes that ensure liberty.
Soap Box
Ballot Box
Jury Box
Ammo Box
Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 12:10 AM GMT+4
Well, no, because the roadway from the diner to discount bev is fairly
straight and level, and it is HERE that I often notice drivers going way
under 40, the posted speed limit. In West B the road gets curvy again,
and narrower. It doesn't make any sense.
---------------
Be careful using the ammo box in densely populated areas mike. One
mistake with the ammo box and you might find yourself in the concrete
box.
Authored by: paulgardner on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 11:44 AM GMT+4
Buddy, I have not noticed the phenomenon you mention with regard to Marlboro Rd/Western Ave where you go from a 40 mph state rd. to a 30 mph town road.
On Putney Rd. northbound, different matter. I see this all the time that drivers (and I do this to some extent as well) leaving Main St. into the triangle and passing the Commons and St. Mike's accelerate to 35-40 or more in the 25 zone. At the end of that straight stretch the speed goes up to 30 mph, but drivers often slow for the hill. Just across the West River the speed limit climbs again to 40 mph, but few drivers adjust to that. So what I often find is that people are going past St. Mike's with it's daycare center at 40-45 and slowing down to 35 in the business zone north of the river. To a large extent the second part is a reasonable thing to do because of all the turning and entering traffic. Maybe 40 mph is too high there.
Btw Tom, you can tell your friend, the nice coop saved him $76 and 3 points off his license. Let's just say I know that from personal experience.:)
Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 12:52 AM GMT+4
Route 9 has been continually straightened and widened over the years. You should have seen it 40 years ago. The more they straighten it, the more dangerous it gets. I don't think paving over the tadpoles is the answer.
Authored by: pjmelton on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 12:21 PM GMT+4
Mr. Mike, have you ever been to West Virginia? This is not about tadpoles. All the old mountain roads are exactly like Route 9. The problem is not the road, but that people go faster than they should.
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"Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
Authored by: paulgardner on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 01:37 PM GMT+4
>>You'll probably find that this phenomenon is caused by the fact that because they have just spent 45 minutes on a winding white knuckle ride on a road that had to be run the way it is due to the fact that we value the life of tadpoles more than humans.<<
Mr.Mike as anti tax as you are I'm surprised that you don't get this.
If the state engineers were told, "Spend what you want - mr.mike says he'll pay!" The road would be straight as an arrow and forever wide (which wouldn't make it safer btw), with a gentle grade. They'd be thrilled to spend your money to make straight roads - that's what they do.
Most of the roads around here were laid out by deer and other woodland critters who were adverse to cold air (valley bottoms and ridge tops are colder) and unnecessary climbing, so they picked a winding way along the hillside.
Then our ancestors came along with their cattle and horses. The cattle used some of the same trails for similar reasons. Eventually these got widened for horse drawn buggies. Then the buggies were replaced by cars. Then the engineers came and inherited the deer trails - no tadpoles involved.
If you want flat and straight, might I recommend Kansas?
Authored by: pjmelton on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 12:18 PM GMT+4
Yes, I notice it. I think it is because people are dithering about whether they want twinkies or doughnuts.
Cumbersome Farms is hilarious. Thanks for that.
People do speed up when they hit the 30 mph zone. And heading west, they speed up to 45+ right after the post office (another area where there are a lots of turns and pedestrians that slow people down, and then the through traffic tends to hit the gas as soon as possible just to make a point).
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"Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
Authored by: Todd on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 12:09 AM GMT+4
>>You'll probably find that this phenomenon is caused by the fact that because they have just spent 45 minutes on a winding white knuckle ride on a road that had to be run the way it is due to the fact that we value the life of tadpoles more than humans.<<
That ladder of life thing? Its a harsh mistress Mikey, get rid of the tadpoles, and eventually you've gotten rid of the humans. We are all in this together.
And, if you were to spend time in the mountains of the western USA, or Europe, you'd see there really is NO true "white knuckle driving" in this state. So there is no excuse for DWI (Driving While Idiotic).
Authored by: SpudHill on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 07:41 AM GMT+4
Not Cripple Creek but sounds similar to some others I've been on. I remember well roads where you literally had gorges that plummeted miles on one side (no shoulder) and steep steep straight up cliffs on the other...and snow coming down, real OM'god moments. I forget what a mountain really is until I get an occasional trip out West. Even the Pacific Coast highway, beautiful as it as, has some real harrowing spots.
But I do think that Mike has a point in general about that road, compared to others around here it's obviously old and just "made" no thoughts about driving ease there . . . but of course Model T's and horse and buggies didn't have a need for streamlined roads and I think we could all slow down a bit anyway. Just read the other day that some kid was picked up for driving something like 100 mph through Brattleboro! Now there's a different sort of What the moment.
Authored by: annikee on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 12:41 PM GMT+4
That's it- there's barely two lanes, no shoulder, just a sheer edge going down for hundreds of feet. With blind bends. Never again. I don't care how great their melodramas are.
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Freedom and fear are natural enemies.
If you've a bed, closet & fridge, you're richer than 75% of the people alive.
Authored by: Todd on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 12:39 PM GMT+4
Yeah the roads near Cripple Creek are pretty hard core. For about a decade and a half I drove Wolf Creek Pass 5-7 days a week in the winter time. Wolf Creek Pass gets the most snow in CO, most years getting 500" of snow or snow. And because of plowing and avalanches, they cannot have guardrails on most of it. So there are things like hair pin turns with 500+ foot drops right off the edge of the road.
Here is a shot looking over the edge of one of the hair pins at a place called "The Overlook". Very pretty, just not a place you want your car to go!
I lived for years at a Ranch which took up most of that second valley you see right after the rock outcropping on the left. Just a few of us on a few thousand acres, 20 miles from the closest town, and a town that makes Brattleboro look like the big city! I love Vermont, but it doesn't really feel "rural" to me most of the time.
Sometimes, when it takes a couple of days to blow all the snow off, nature provides you with a guardrail.
With these big drop offs right off the edge of the shoulder, cars and trucks do go over now and then. When you are driving it every day, in a hurry to get to work. You just get very, very good at snow and ice driving! The main trick I always found is most simply stated as learning to relax, be gentle, and look way ahead all the time. Its panic, abrupt motions of the wheel, brakes or even shifting which make you lose grip.
Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 12:50 PM GMT+4
I drove to Cripple Creek a number of times when I was stationed in Colorado Springs - never thought anything of it. Spectacular drive. It's probably paved now.
The only thing that's bad about driving the back roads of the Alps is when you have to back up for a quarter mile on winding, guardrail-less roads to get back to a place where you can pass the guy coming the other way safely.
No, for me "white knuckle" driving happens in Boston, New York City, DC...
Authored by: SpudHill on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 01:07 PM GMT+4
Wow Great Photos!
Maus "stationed" were you in the service?
and yes, I find getting out of Boston often more harrowing than any drive out West. I can get into Boston fine, it's the getting out that I have problems with, too many right-hand lanes that become off-ramps no branching and they seem to show up just around a corner.
Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 02:02 PM GMT+4
Fort Carson was my first permanent duty station in the Army.
I liked the area, but that was before it was over come with street gangs and rightwing religious political groups. What a combination, gang bangers and bible thumpers.
Authored by: Todd on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 03:40 PM GMT+4
Yeah Colorado Springs was a on and off home base for us for a 20 year period or so. Moving to other states often, and to Europe, but usually returning to C.Springs for a bit between. And so we really watched it change.
It was always a bit of an odd town. A mix of sprawling McSuburbia, with Manitou Springs and Old Colorado Springs being pretty hippy, with the Broadmoor being BIG bucks territory, the military base, Pikes Peak - 14,000+ feet and you could just drive to the summit, and then of course NORAD inside Cheyenne Mountain looming over all of us.
But I remember noticing the difference to mood in some areas when Dobsons Focus on the Family group with their 1000+ employees and family members moved into the area, and then lots of other similar groups followed them out as well - and it seemed to make C.Springs sort of turn the corner from being a weird diverse place with lots of lefties and righties and everybody inbetween to being a pretty much militantly radical right wing town (with LOTs of exceptions of course, but the mood had shifted).
Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 02:45 PM GMT+4
Yeah, it depends on what you're used to, I guess. I grew up getting slung from side to side (even with seatbelts) in the back seat of the car as my father drove these roads. And most of the main roads have been substantially straightened or re-routed since then.
In regard to mike's statement, most of Vermont's roads were built before motor vehicles, let alone environmental legislation. Many of Vermonts roads were even built before there was a Vermont, and much of the current path of Route 9 falls into that category. The old roads followed rivers where practical, and followed the lay of the land to avoid steep inclines as much as possible.
In some spots between Bratt and Wilmington, Route 9 follows the route of a pre-Revolutionary road from Bratt to Bennington, and was truly the route used by at least a portion of Gen. Stark's forces. It was also known as the Windham County Turnpike. There was also the pre-Revolutionary "Albany Post Road," that ran generally to the south of Route 9. Today, pieces of that road are various town highways.
Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 03:24 PM GMT+4
In West Bratt, if you drive out Abbot Road, to Ames Hill Road, out past Marlboro College (South Road?) and into Halifax, then over to Jacksonville, you'll be more-or-less following the first leg of the Albany Post Road. From there, most of the rest is no longer driveable (one section is under Harriman Reservoir) until you get into Heartwellville.
It's a nice drive. And once you know the history, you'll notice tell-tale signs that the road was a main thoroughfare in the distant past.
Authored by: SpudHill on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 03:31 PM GMT+4
Now that I know the history of that road, driving it will have a far great meaning.....I'll be more reverent.....out West the roads only signify cattle drives....kinda cool that it's a revolutionary road....I'll bet the tadpoles had a much greater chance of escaping the horse-drawn wagon wheels or horse hooves than they do the car wheels.
Actually in fairness to the West there is the Lewis & Clark trail which a highway still follows and parts of roads that follow the old stagecoach and pioneer trails but that revolutionary thing always gets me.
Authored by: annikee on Wednesday, January 20 2010 @ 02:14 AM GMT+4
I remember when there'd be 4-6 of us kids in the backseat, no seatbelts,all of us flying on top of each other in my dad's hairpin turns at 60 mph, parents screaming and batting you in the head from the front without turning around, everyone crying. Happy days...
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Freedom and fear are natural enemies.
If you've a bed, closet & fridge, you're richer than 75% of the people alive.
Authored by: tomaidh on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 01:19 PM GMT+4
Coupling this report with reports of increased parking enforcement (like a $50 fine for parking in a loading zone AT MIDNIGHT), I'm inclined to believe it's more about revenue than safety.
Authored by: pjmelton on Tuesday, January 19 2010 @ 03:21 PM GMT+4
I'm totally OK with making irresponsible people pick up more of the tax burden. I figure in most cases they're just paying a tiny piece of the salary of the person who is trying to protect the rest of us from their idiocy.
If it's midnight, why park in the loading zone anyway? Surely there are plenty of other places to park.
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"Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
The fine will be $90.00
Happy Sunday.