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    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas    
    Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 06:36 PM GMT+5
    Contributed by: cgrotke

    PoliticsThe Brattleboro Solid Waste Committee has sent a four page letter to Brattleboro Town Meeting Representatives. In it, they explain their recommendation to institute Pay As You Throw as the way to help save the town money and increase recycling. Here is a copy of the Solid Waste Committee's letter for those who weren't able to be elected and might still be interested.

    The Committee says in the letter that they have worked hard to find out what bothered Town Meeting members about PAYT at last year's Town Meeting, when reps voted to rescind Pay As You Throw. The Committee has surveyed them twice in the past year and have since worked to answer the "thoughtful" questions Town Meeting reps posed to them.

    The Committee's letter recycles arguments from last year's debate on the issue. Recycling is good! Other places do it! Brattleboro can do better!

    The Committee says that opponents of PAYT say recycling can be increased using "informal methods such as the the Recycling Challenge issued by our Selectboard last year, articles in the paper and presentations on BCTV."

    However, the Committee also says they have tried these ideas and informal methods have not worked, which is why they recommend the "proven tool" known as Pay As You Throw.

    It's the answer, they say, because it eliminates "subsidizing" of those who won't or are unable to recycle. In addition, they say that it provides an economic stick (rather than a carrot) to manipulate people's behavior, and is "environmentally sustainable."

    The letter then concludes with Committee answers to Town Meeting member questions and concerns. I've decided to toss out some of their wording and paraphrase their responses with shorter versions of my own.

    Price of bags? A 30 gallon bag will be $2 and a 15 gallon bag will be $1.

    Where can I get them? At stores and at the Municipal Center.

    Tell us about the bags. They are plastic.

    What about those people on low or fixed incomes? We looked at helping them, but it would be hard and, also, it would wipe out some of the cost savings we're projecting. We'll use informal methods (like those we've already determined to be ineffectual) to share information with them after PAYT is in effect.

    Will PAYT cost me more? Can't say. Maybe. Maybe not.

    What about illegal dumping? It won't happen here because it didn't happen in some other places.

    What about bulky waste that doesn't fit in the small bags? Like couches, mattresses and other large items? Call the vendor and have them come and get it, or drive it to the WSWMD. Yes, we know some people don't have cars, but, solid waste is everyone's responsibility...

    What about all the things we currently can't recycle in Brattleboro? Yes, well, nothing has changed in that regard. We haven't done anything to improve things there for you.

    Will the Town pick up compost at the curb? Not now. You can compost in your backyard, or save it up and then load it into your car or take it on the bus to Project Cow every few days.

    We Town Meeting members do think education is important, especially with new programs. Oh, right, yes, we do, too. We want to hire a part-time coordinator to help start the program using informal methods because we are busy people with limited time.

    What about the economic impact on renters? We see tenants as getting a free ride right now, and homeowners are subsidizing them. Our letter says "Just because you rent doesn't mean you shouldn't be responsible for your trash." Tenants have to work to reduce trash, too, you know.

    Will we get weekly recycling pickup? No.

    What about storing recyclables in an apartment? If you do a good job recycling, it should really pile up. We know some people don't have cars, but you can drive to Old Ferry Road every time your bin is full if you want.

    Why not enforce the existing mandatory recycling ordinance? That would take time, money, and energy.

    Will there be downtown recycle bins on Main Street? Hey, that wasn't a question in our letter.

    The Committee offers to answer additional questions at the informational meeting at Academy School on Wednesday, March 10.

     

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  • Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas | 38 comments | Create New Account
    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: annikee on Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 08:52 PM GMT+5
    What about the shifting of cost onto individuals who can least afford it? Why have they done nothing to increase what's recycled? Why isn't recycling pick-up being increased? Isn't 1 dollar per bag, 2 dollars per bag highway robbery? And finally, how dare they? Thanks for reporting this. Disgraceful. I ask all TM Reps, on my behalf, to vote PAYT down again, as they wisely did last year. I'm already paying my landlord 120 dollars more this year than last. That should cover my portion of trash hauling being raised.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: KM on Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 10:59 PM GMT+5
    I'm still steaming from reading this letter that arrived yesterday. It is nothing more than PROPAGANDA. Who does this committee think the Town Meeting Reps are and do they know that we've graduated the first grade. So totally one sided that avoids any real mention of the reasons that people oppose the implementation of the ordinance. Of course its still full of "the Town is discussing" and "Triple T is hoping", "it is possible to take a trip to ... WSWMD" and "taking compost to WSWMD". Nothing realistic or any real discussion. Pure propaganda - sad.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: Belfast on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 04:00 AM GMT+5
    The letter sent the town reps. by committee does NOT represent or reflect my interests or stance, as a non-wealthy person who rents & lacks transportation.

    Should I email all of my town reps before town meeting day, to convey my opinion ? I don't know how to get ahold of these people who will be voting on behalf of the larger citizenry (incl. myself).

    As I've mentioned previously in comments on ibr, I'm against PAYT.
    Enumerating my reasons (yet again) feels futile, as the deciders seem set on enacting this-no matter that the bulk of the penalty falls upon those who can least afford any further fees & taxes. I'm in favor of recycling & I'm against pollution, but this mechanism is not my idea of how to help either of those efforts-instead, it further disadvantages the disadvantaged (while asserting the contrary).

    If PAYT is believed to be so popular as to be a mandate from the governed, then put it to a paper vote (referendum question) for all, not just the (s)elected representatives. I voted March 2nd & would've registered my opposition to this proposal, had it been included on the ballot.

    ---
    "You cannot administer a wicked law impartially-it destroys everyone it touches, its violators as well as its upholders."
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 05:24 AM GMT+5
    The letter states that they submitted a questionaire to Town meeting members. This sentence while attempting to give the impression that there is quite a bit of support by town meeting voters is actually useless hence my usual suspicion ridden mind puts up red flags.

    "To both questions, over 70o% of those responding (either yes or no) said yes."

    Okay so the next question is how many responded to the questionaire out of all the voting members. Was it 10%, was it 40%?

    This statement appears to indicate that a large majority supported the idea but actually it does not. It is not informational until one knows how many actually responded.

    PAYT will not be too difficult for me but I can certainly see how it could affect those who don't have cars or backyards. I have a problem with conflict of interest still...it appears to me that those who rent out space will benefit at the expense of renters. I would be more supportive of this measure if I saw some inclusion that does not pass this cost directly onto renters albeit the cost could still be passed on indirectly.

    And is it just me or does anyone else find that line about helping out low-income trash producers by paying for extra bags and running them over to donate to the Drop In Center kind of weird and out of place and maybe perhaps just a little bit snarky as in "Let Them Eat Garbage Bags".

    So my last question is this, who wrote this, who is the Marie Antoinette of the group or was it a group effort.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 06:21 AM GMT+5
    And by the by I"m all for donating to the Drop In Center, I think they do a great job helping people out and recommend donating to them.
    HOWEVER, to handle the question of cost to residents by throwing out the line that they can just go to the Drop In Center to get bags and et voila that will solve the problem for those just getting by shows a remarkable lack of concern and sounds a tad bit contemptuous might I say.

    This proposal seems to me to possible be very costly for many more than those in the greatest need who are the people the Drop In Center really helps. There are many with homes here who are struggling and will find this extra cost very dear.

    And I'm wondering if the Drop In Center wants to handle the overflow crowds they may get for donated garbage bags, that is IF they get donated. From what I know donations aren't exactly flowing in for food, let alone garbage bags. DId the SB contact the Drop In Center to see if they were interested in being the conduit for donated bags considering that they're up to their eyebrows just trying to keep people feed and housed?

    This suggestion really shows a disassociation with what many in the middle class are dealing with today. It's really a pretty tacky comment and totally iappropriate coming from an official missive from town government.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 07:43 AM GMT+5
    "This suggestion really shows a disassociation with what many in the middle class are dealing with today. It's really a pretty tacky comment and totally iappropriate coming from an official missive from town government."

    Well actually this shows a disassociation with what many in the lower-middle class to lower income strata are dealing with these days. Somehow I doubt that many except for the wealthiest among us will be able to spring for extra bags for the drop-in center and that's even if they want them. I stand by my charge that this comment as a response to the question was kinda tacky and inappropriate and striking of a "let them eat cake" attitude to the cost of this proposal.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: tiny on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 08:50 AM GMT+5
    Another year, another attempt at PAYT.

    "But in Brattleboro, we are not doing well. Brattleboro can do much
    better. Our recycling rate, since the inception of curbside collection
    program in the mid 1990's, has gone down and then stayed steadily
    under 20%"

    Wow! What a bunch of pigs! When are people going to walk the talk?
    Saving the Earth and being Green costs money and everybody needs
    to pitch in together and contribute because we all contribute to it.

    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 09:18 AM GMT+5
    Well I hate to say it but human nature being what it is, I suspect enforced recycling has to happen until it becomes habit. But couldn't we just enforce the recycling better. I'm wondering if this isn't going to be an expensive proposition for everyone in the guise of "saving" money. I believe Spoon's figures were showing that this isn't going save anything except perhaps the impression that the SB has balanced the budget. But it'll be "balanced" in lieu of costing everyone a lot more money.

    So here's my other question.
    How many SB members are owners of residential or commercial real estate property because as I remember it from last year those with rental properties especially commercial will save a pretty good amount of dough now by passing the cost along to renters. So not being familiar with the players who owns rental properties?
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: tiny on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 09:55 AM GMT+5
    Recycling has been going on 10 years and still isn't a habit? What gives?
    Spud, why make this issue about money, class and who owns property
    and other "wedge issues" when this issue is that the people of Bratt will
    find any excuse not to recycle. Why is it everybody is pointing fingers to
    solve this issue? It isn't working!
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 10:24 AM GMT+5
    I doubt that recycling has been effective anywhere when there was not a structure of fines if people did not do it initially at least.

    Oh Ye of oh so little faith in Brattleboro-ites, I don't think it's laziness, to be honest I've never ever had a clear idea of what can and can't be recycled, the one mailer I've ever received was not clear at all so I recycle as I am used to doing...and that was an imposed method at first.

    As for this
    "Spud, why make this issue about money, class and who owns property
    and other "wedge issues"
    so what political group is it that I am "wedging" here?
    I think this issue isn't about recycling at all, it's about those who can afford $2 grocery bags and those who can't and whether this PAYT is really equitable. Especially as it was already voted down once and now here rears it's ugly or not head again.

    As for the property issue, I've often found that on any board I've been on or known of, there are members who find it very difficult to put their personal issues aside when voting especially when they have a vested interests. That is why you have the old legal definition "conflict of interest" in which those with such conflict should really in all fairness and honesty step aside on a vote.

    So I'm not saying, I'm just saying.....as they say.....IS there someone who stands to make money on this deal? If there is someone on the board who owns a substantial amount of realty (residential or otherwise)? And, in fact, it still stands that those with rental property will save a lot of money on this deal as was stated last year, if that all still holds true then by all rights they should step aside on the vote. Just saying, Tiny, just saying.....
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: tiny on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 10:47 AM GMT+5
    Hey spud, I'm home sick today so thanks for relieving my boredom!

    "I doubt that recycling has been effective anywhere when there was
    not a structure of fines if people did not do it initially at first."

    As I have said in previous posts, PAYT has worked in my town. We
    never had fines or wide scale illegal dumping as a result. What we
    did have was an excellent education campaign with ongoing
    communication, a wide range of things that can be recycled, and
    weekly garbage and recycling curbside pickup.

    I have plenty of faith that the people of Bratt can do this. I have
    plenty of faith in them and the Town. Frankly, I was stirring it to get
    a reaction, and I know I can get it from you! (I did tell you Im at
    home ill with nothing to do!)

    As far as a wedge issue, the "antis" are wrapping them selves in the
    cloak of protecting the poor, the renters. And to suggest that the SB
    votes are being influenced because they own property is a stretch, as
    much as saying a renter on the SB would be biased against. Ye of
    little faith regarding your Selectboard members! This is a SB budget
    issue, not cause for a referendum.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: cgrotke on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 11:10 AM GMT+5
    It will cost me more, certainly.

    I'm against it for that reason and for others- there are still many
    things that can't be recycled. Recycling pick up is only every two
    weeks. There is no good plan for pickup of compost. It provides a
    disincentive to pick up trash on the street. There are no recycling bins
    on Main Street. This puts a big burden on low-income people. It is a
    big burden for those living in apartments without cars. It encourages
    more driving to and from the dump by individuals rather than
    coordinated pickup by truck. Other options haven't been fully
    explored. It doesn't really save the money, it shifts costs around and
    could increase costs overall.

    (Nice day to be off... get outside!)
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 11:34 AM GMT+5
    He can't, he's sick.
    Get well soon Tiny cause I feel like I can't pick on ya when you're down!

    Well perhaps you're right but I've been on one board too many where members turn out to have personal agendas that benefit them. And it does seem Brat dropped the ball on clear education, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do so wing it.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: annikee on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 11:31 AM GMT+5
    As far as "antis" are wrapping them selves in the
    cloak of protecting the poor, the renters" I am a renter, poor and against it. It may have worked wherever you live, but it won't work here. There are too many poor. Garbage Will pile up, on porches, in mud rooms and any road where someone can toss it without being seen, dumpsters will be illegally used and trash will be thrown in recycling. This is not good for Brattleboro. As for faith, that's for the religious. I live in the real world of Brattleboro, where money is not to be spent on special garbage bags, but things like bills and food and clothing.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 11:42 AM GMT+5
    I read Tiny's post too quickly, thought he was saying recycling worked in his town. I wonder how big his town is because it also is possible that PAYT works in smaller communities with less of a disparity between incomes. But I am rather insulted that Tiny would think that I am
    ""antis" are wrapping them selves in the
    cloak of protecting the poor, the renters."
    I seriously think this is an issue for those who will have trouble affording this plan and I'm not wrapping myself in the cloak of anything but that. A sincere concern that a town measure work for everyone and not just benefit a few.If this town can't put together a good education plan around recycling why would one assume that they could do so around PAYT. Perhaps we'll end up having to keep that coordinator on longer than thought, cutting into the savings.

    I'm just saying there's something odd about this being brought up again after it was clear at the last meeting that it wasn't wanted.

    As for the "letter" sent out.
    70% of 20 is 14, 70% of 40 is 28, 70% of an unknown number is unknown. If they want to claim that 70% of "respondents" supported this they'd best let us know how many actually responded.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: tiny on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 12:58 PM GMT+5
    Spuddude, thank you for the kind words regarding my illness. Don't
    let that stop you from bringing it on!!


    This is an important topic and there are clearly no easy answers. To
    be clear, my town's recycling program started in 1995 and has been
    enhanced over the years. Our bags are 7.50 for 3 large bags or 5
    small bags for 3.75. There are 17G people in town, 45% rent, 55%
    own. Beyond that, you are comparing apples and oranges. While
    unemployment is higher than VT, income is lower and Bratt does have
    more working poor/lower middle class. Recycling is hard wired into
    residents heads.

    What I gather form this forum, Bratt people want
    1) weekly recycle, and garbage pickup
    2) periodic pickup for large items, composts and hazardous wastes
    3) no additional bag cost.
    4) a part time coordinator to do education, etc.

    Enhanced service at no cost, wow , how do you achieve it?
    It is tragic that the prediction is garbage will pile up and get worse.
    You have a real stanoff here. I will say this, if this committee is
    going to ram this down peoples throats, you should demand and get
    enhanced service.

    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: KM on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 01:41 PM GMT+5
    It's known as personal and community responsibility. The budget is $10m+ and they can't find some money to enhance recycling? For the last year, the SB has clearly shown that they care little about recycling other than as a cost issue. The overall focus on this issue appears to be the tax rate. Who pays the most taxes - those who own the most real estate. People still do not see this connection?? Interestingly after another year of study, they have so many gaps in their information (cost for implementing enhanced technigues).
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: annikee on Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 04:20 PM GMT+5
    The "a part time coordinator to do education" is part of the PAYT plan.

    The recycling issue is a big part of the problem, as has been noted.
    -Recycling pick up every 2 weeks is not enough.
    -What can be recycled here is limited

    As far as bag sizes, I'd be using the 1$ bags, at a cost of 52$ a year. If I went to larger bags, I may be able to cut that down a bit, by cramming more into each bag. But that larger bag would sit in my shoebox apartment festering and reeking for 2-3 weeks. What a joy to live in Brattleboro!

    And I'm positive that many of our townfolk just won't comply. 52 bucks a year may not seem a lot when you make 40G a yeer, but who makes 40G a year in Bratt? 52 bucks, for many of us, is telephone and electricity money.

    And I'll say it again- I don't have children. If this is what it's all about- paying for using- then I want all the school tax I've paid here for the last 15 years back.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 04:51 PM GMT+5
    There's no doubt that it's a cost-shift, and that the most impact will be on those who have the least. But it's not just the "poor" that will feel the impact. If I remember correctly, it will adversely impact homeowners with properties valued at less than $350,000. So not only will that clobber the guy with a mobile home, it's also a pretty square shot at the middle class.

    And while renters aren't necessarily poor, every renter will get smacked with this additional expense while their landlords will enjoy the tax break. It will just hurt those with the lowest incomes the most.

    Whether you believe PAYT is the right thing or the wrong thing, does anybody really think that the time to shift more burden onto the backs of the middle class and the poor is during economic times such as these?

    I have to admit, it is a class-warfare thing for me. I don't live in Bratt but, generally, it is those of us in the middle class, and more so for those with lower incomes, that are under attack in this war. The wealthy have been waging class warfare on us for decades. It's not just PAYT, but ten thousand things just like PAYT, that have created an ever-widening gap between the wealthiest Americans and the rest of us.

    They've already won the propaganda war. Someone will respond to this post with some variation of "the rich shouldn't have to give everyone a free ride, you lazy socialist deadbeat." The wealthy have paid good money to get people to believe that the nation is financed "on the backs of the rich," but it's just not true. The rich have gotten even more wealthy over the last 35 years. And the wealthy have also paid good money to get people to believe that the they, who have benefited incredibly from this system that pampers them and hands them so much opportunity, owe no greater proportion than the rest of us.

    I was just reading the other day that worker wages, in real dollars, have been stagnant or declined since 1972, while worker productivity has increased by 40% - forty percent! It doesn't take a genius to see who has gotten screwed here. They won't be happy until we're back to the good old days of child labor and the whole family working at the mill 16 hours a day for a crust of bread.

    As far as recycling goes, I've lived in communities where recycling didn't have to be enforced by fines or PAYT. It can be done if you really want to do it, but it means someone will have to do actual work. You can't meet as a committee and demand, or recommend, that people do it all on their own.

    ---
    We Rock!
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: tiny on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 06:19 PM GMT+5
    I agree it is a cost shift. But just how does it adversely effect a
    homeowner whose home is worth 350K?

    Maus, you wrote an eloquent post, but never once mentioned the real
    cost.

    I use 1 bag a week for four. Curbside pickup for recycling and
    garbage once a week. And hazmat disposal, tree and stump dumping,
    large bulky items can be brought to the dump. And I can get a load
    of compost for free for the ride home. For $2 a week. $100 a year.

    Class warfare over $2 a week?
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 06:25 PM GMT+5
    I believe this is because your tax savings if your home is valued over $350,000 will equal or be greater than the cost of PAYT . However, as your home value descends so will your tax savings, therefore PAYT will affect those with lower home values more as their tax savings (due to the level funded budget) will be less.

    Is that it, Maus?
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: tiny on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 06:48 PM GMT+5
    You make it sound like it is going to cost a gazillion dollars.

    How much would PAYT cost you? 25 bucks a year?



    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: H on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 07:42 PM GMT+5
    The audacity of the town to suggest that its citizens be directly and financially responsible for their refuse. PAYT has been demonstrated in many municipal locations that solid waste is reduced and recycling is increased. What could be a better example of sustainability? This is not a service whose cost should be spread among taxpayers. This is a cost to be assumed by its consumer. As a matter of principle PAYT has a great deal of merit.

    Changing people's lifestyle characteristics so they recycle more? It is done with the real altruism; money.

    My concern with this is more about what happens to the corresponding reduction in the budget. Does the Selectboard and Town Meeting Members have the discipline to keep the "savings" from appearing as a new expense down the road. I fear we might end up with a reduction in services and an increase in spending.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 07:42 PM GMT+5
    It was certainly more than that, does anybody know what the projected costs were? I remember reading somewhere here some ballparks but then Spoon was saying it was going to be quite a bit more and we weren't talking $25 a year, that's for sure.
    You can pay your taxes and for your trash pickup too!
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 04:41 PM GMT+5
    Another problem is that the price is not "fixed" at $2 or $1 per bag. I can almost guarantee you that, within a year or two of enacting PAYT, the selectboard will start saying that solid waste is operating at a "deficit," meaning that your $1 or $2 doesn't really pay the full cost. Then there will be efforts to reduce this "deficit" by, you guessed it, raising the cost per bag to $2.25, $2.50, $3.

    Of course, it will only be more sleight of hand with the intention of moving even more of this cost out of the budget and on to you in order to make way for other expenditures.

    ---
    We Rock!
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: pjmelton on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 07:29 PM GMT+5
    "Curbside pickup for recycling and
    garbage once a week"

    That is a luxury!

    In my view, the worst thing about PAYT is that they did not even consider the implications of implementing recycling every week. Do you realize that the recycling truck only comes every other week here? That means the recycling piles up. And if you forget when recycling week is, it piles up more. I think a lot of people must just give up and never recycle at all. The town has to make it easy, or it won't happen. That is the whole concept behind curbside recycling - and our town simply doesn't live up to the principle. Having it every other week is almost as good as not having it at all.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: rapjr on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 11:16 PM GMT+5

    Recycled materials that pile up over the two weeks in open bins attract animals and insects, even if cleaned.

    Recycling is also a reduction in our quality of life, making us all trash washers and sorters. There are new engineering solutions to this problem; take a look at these links:

    Recycling is a waste of time - an engineer states that current recycling solutions are political, not engineering based
    New sensors see rubbish and gas - it is now possible to recognise different materials
    Wikipedia article on recycling - general background info
    Tomra - Waste sorting and recognition - a commercial sorting system
    Plasma arc waste disposal - Looks promising, though not scaled up to community size yet.

    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: pjmelton on Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 05:23 AM GMT+5
    It's going to take a lot of PAYT bag purchases to pay for the necessary equipment! ;-)

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    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: Maus Anon E on Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 08:51 AM GMT+5
    ***Maus, you wrote an eloquent post, but never once mentioned the real cost.***
    It's the "real cost" that I was talking about. It's not just the $0 to $200 per year that PAYT will cost Bratt working class families (depending on your property value and whether you rent or own), although that should be enough. It's PAYT plus all the other cost shifting handed to people with middle and lower incomes from the federal, state, and local government. It's time to say enough is enough.

    Even the town government has admitted that this is a cost shift, that it impacts those with lower-valued properties and renters the most, and that there is no savings! And there's no budget reduction! Despite this and several personnel cuts, the budget is flat. The money has already been spent.

    PAYT is nothing more than sleight of hand.

    ---
    We Rock!
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: Rolf on Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 02:08 PM GMT+5

    Sleight of hand and smoke and mirrors.

    Or, at least smoke.

    While I did live in a town that had illegal dumps spring up when town trash fees went up, what I am personally most concerned about is the increase in the amount of trash burning that is likely to happen in people's wood stoves.

    According to the EPA, this practice results in dioxins and other nasties being created. The ash is frequently toxic waste, and the air, besides smelling like burnt plastic, is unhealthy to breathe.

    Unless I missed it, there is no mention of that potential environmental problem in the letter, at all, not even an educational campaign. There is no enforcement plan, no education plan, no plan at all.

    But all this has been said before, and ignored, along with other concerns.




    ---
    Dreams Trump Video
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: annikee on Tuesday, March 09 2010 @ 06:19 PM GMT+5
    "...the increase in the amount of trash burning that is likely to happen in people's wood stoves"

    And their backyard "BBQ pits". Very good point. I hadn't thought of that at all.
    Solid Waste Committee Letter: PAYT Pleas
    Authored by: Truman on Monday, March 08 2010 @ 03:07 PM GMT+5
    I was talking to a friend and she tells me that in her parent's town, about the same size as Brattleboro, they instituted a mandatory recycling ordinance. All residents are required to purchase clear garbage bags (any size). If a recyclable material is seen inside the bag, that bag is given a green sticker by the garbage pickup people and left at the curb.

    She says that neighborhood pressure (even just good-natured ribbing) was enough to get people to comply. The bags are available in all the grocery stores and different price points.

    Why not give THAT a try? I know, you could still wrap a can in a plastic bag and stuff it in your clear garbage bag...but wouldn't that get to be a pain after awhile?
    PAYT is a good idea
    Authored by: FlyingPuck on Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 02:47 PM GMT+5
    Bratt's recycling rate, at 17%, is pathetic! A LOT of people obviously need a financial incentive.

    Those who recycle have been subsidizing those who don't, and why should they have to? Those who generate the trash should pay for it.

    A lot of the complaining comes from people who think of trash pick up as a free service entitlement. It's not free, it costs money, and you should pay to the extent that you use it.

    These cries of hardship for the poor & renters ignore the fact that these people, like others, obviously need a financial incentive to reduce their garbage output. These concerns sound just a tad melodramatic and disingenuous. If we're going to talk green, then let's actually get green!

    Any change elicits outcry from an essentially inert population. The change has been made elsewhere, and the outcry died down when the world didn't end and the results vindicated the change. It's Bratt's turn to take this progressive step now.
    PAYT is a good idea
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 02:58 PM GMT+5
    I would agree with you if the town would go to weekly recycling. Having it every other week is next to useless.

    And what exactly does a 17% recycling rate mean, anyway? I have asked this before and not received an adequate answer. Glass bottles that weigh a lot are deposit bottles, which takes much of what would be recycling tonnage out of circulation in the waste disposal system. You're left with things like cardboard and water bottles, which don't weigh much - whereas food waste does. Are we really comparing meaningful numbers here?

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    PAYT is a bad idea
    Authored by: cgrotke on Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 03:08 PM GMT+5
    Let's keep going with the logic...

    Why should we have to pay for fire trucks going to other people's
    houses - mine didn't burn down!

    Why pay for police - it was someone else who got arrested.

    Why should non-drivers pay for upkeep of roads?

    Keeping Brattleboro clean is in the public interest, and it is more
    efficient to have centralized pick up rather than have people make
    multiple, individual trips to the dump for recycling and compost, as
    the committee suggests be done to avoid using extra bags.
    PAYT is a good idea
    Authored by: FlyingPuck on Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 03:54 PM GMT+5
    Those are not logical comparisons, as I imagine you know. Trash pick-up is a service we can choose to use more or less of, and that personal choice should carry with it a personal cost or savings. To do otherwise is to continue to think of it as a free entitlement.

    It's not fair to ask those who live their environmental principles to subsidize those who generate lots of garbage and blithely throw out everything. I think more people might recycle if they knew others weren't freeloading.

    And I agree that weekly recycling pick-up will be necessary.
    PAYT is a good idea
    Authored by: pjmelton on Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 04:39 PM GMT+5
    "It's not fair to ask those who live their environmental principles to subsidize those who generate lots of garbage and blithely throw out everything."

    I think the people you think you are subsidizing are straw men.

    I like to think we "live our environmental principles." We generate hardly any garbage. This is because we

    1. keep careful track of the recycling weeks
    2. buy whole, bulk foods at the co-op
    3. buy milk in returnable bottles
    4. avoid processed food, including canned goods - though cans go in the recycling
    5. compost our food waste (ALL of it, since we don't eat meat)
    6. wash and reuse all containers until they wear out
    7. save worn out clothing for use as rags instead of throwing it out
    8. generally try not to buy any junky plastic stuff that is going to turn into garbage in a matter or days or weeks

    As much as you might like to, you cannot expect that lifestyle from others. People who rent do not usually have the option to compost. People who rent almost never have space for TWO WEEKS' worth of recycling (we barely do, and we own a home!). And you cannot expect working-class people, who may have two or three jobs, to buy all whole foods in bulk at the co-op and stand around washing bags on a daily basis! That kind of time is a luxury for MOST people.

    No, I don't want to subsidize anyone "blithely" throwing out recyclables, but the town did not even TRY to make it easy to recycle and compost. No one ran ANY numbers on what might happen to tipping fees if recycling happened once a week. No one ran a feasibility or economic impact study. No one even mounted the promised public outreach campaign that would educate people about the importance of recycling!

    They keep talking about this as though it were all about increasing the recycling rate, but that is not the primary goal. What they really want to do is take garbage tipping fees out of the budget so they can look like they've done something. It's just a political switcharoo. As much as it would please me to do it, I simply can't support PAYT without the town first dealing with WHY people don't recycle.

    ---
    "Economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings." -- FDR
    PAYT is a good idea
    Authored by: KM on Wednesday, March 10 2010 @ 10:32 PM GMT+5
    So you mean like the new water and sewer rates?? This same SB instituted new rates that rely substantially more on base rate and less on usage. Clearly getting the lowest water consuption possible was last on their list of concerns. Likewise, the PAYT has nothing to do with increasing recycling. It has to do with lowering the cost to home owners of large homes and multiple homes (focusing on the theme of tax rate [more inclusive]).
    If this was part of a comprehensive package, I would consider it. But how can you penalize people when you accept next to nothing to be recycled. 75% of my plastic MUST be thrown in the trash per the Windham Solid Waste District.
    The propaganda piece they sent out last week was the last straw.
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