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    Tu Tu Tutsi Goodbye, Tu Tu Tutsi Don't Cry.    
    Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 10:17 AM GMT+5
    Contributed by: xteeth

    PoliticsI have been reading Strength in What Remains by Tracy Kidder. It is about one soul that made it out of the genocide in Burundi (next to Rwanda in Africa) in which hundreds of thousands of people of all stripes engaged in the slaughter of people indistinguishable from themselves. Priests killed parishioners, students killed teachers, neighbor killed neighbor, patients killed doctors. It was a kind of low tech killing with hand tools which makes it clear that everyone was involved not just revolutionary groups and the army like so many other places.

    There is no way to tell a Hutu from a Tutsi. No particular ethnic, religious, physical appearance distinctions. Kind of made me think of the difference between Republicans and Democrats. Could you tell the difference? Really? Does one group were expensive suits, have nice haircuts, fancy cars? The other scruffy, long hair, casual dress. The professorial type as opposed to the used car salesman. The stock broker compared with the manual laborer?

    Once the slaughter started, even the most tenuous of distinctions disappeared in the blood bath. Is that the direction in which we are headed? No one in Burundi thought so before it started there either. It is interesting to note that even though one side was considered to be more pacific than the other, once the slaughter started, everyone got involved. Sure, you might be armed and fortified in your castle but that turned out not to differently from Ruby Ridge or Waco. Men, women, children, cats, dogs, cattle all were slaughtered once the flood gates were opened. Hacked to pieces by those with whom they lived in peace the years before.

    No one asked, "Are you for health care?" "Do you believe in global warming?" "Are you prolife?" For or against gay marriage, prayer in the schools, fluoride in the water, second amendment rights, tax cutting, public education? Hot button items just don't seem that important as the machete hits your child's head just above the ear, as your wife is doused with gasoline and set afire. It wasn't only students killing teachers. Teachers killed students.

    The Burundi civilization had been going on for years, as has ours. They didn't expect calamity, neither do we. Both sides denigrated the other side, as do we. One side currently is much more belligerent than the other. When the belligerent got their way, everyone died. Even with an 85% to 15% ratio, the death counts at the end were not all that different. Civilizations are very hard to build. Are you building or tearing down?

     

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  • Tu Tu Tutsi Goodbye, Tu Tu Tutsi Don't Cry. | 23 comments | Create New Account
    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    The Pogrom
    Authored by: paulgardner on Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 10:56 AM GMT+5
    Sounds like a fascinating book xteeth. I haven't read it and given that I only read a couple a year probably won't - but would love to read more about it here if you have more to say about it.

    I think you are referring to the demonizing that is going on left and right politically here in the USA now. I've wondered at times if we're heading toward a Civil War style meltdown, but a Rwandan style purge may be possible too.


    During the Red Scare/Hollywood blacklist days in America the hunters scoured membership lists for the American Communist party, magazine subscription list and persecuted those they found. During WW I German Americans were persecuted. During WWII it was Japanese Americans. In Nazi Germany persecuted minorities were forced to wear badges.
    Historically there have been many ways to create "sides" and many reasons dreamed up for demonizing and persecuting the "other".
    We are primed for the same thing to happen again, I believe.
    The Pogrom
    Authored by: SpudHill on Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 11:23 AM GMT+5
    Well aren't you two our little rays of sunshine this morning!
    The Pogrom
    Authored by: SpudHill on Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 11:45 AM GMT+5
    OH and actually there is a physical distinction between Hutu and Tutsi, Tutsi being generally taller and thinner and in appearance looking more like Ethiopians and are thought to have originated from that area. However it is Belgium that began the sequence of events that led up to this horrific situation. In the early 1900s they issued identity cards that favored Tutsis as they considered them superior so the resentments began. This went on (the favoring of Tutsis) until around 1959 when there was an uprising by the Hutus and most of the Tutsis fled to neighboring countries including Burunda where the subject of the book was living.

    There was a movement to encourage Tutsis to return, however subsequently due to political unrest blame for problems were laid at the feet of the Tutsi eventually culminating with the massacre. Much more involved than this but this is the short version.

    So while there is a comparison that could be made in terms of some other historical genocides, the comparison to Democrats and Repubs falls short. These are ethnic tribes that while speaking the same language and sharing many social aspects they are still separate and, due to the wonderful Belgium rule, have been kept separate in large part socially through the use of the identity cards.

    To try to use Rwanda's tragedy as a base for concern about strife here between Dems and Repubs is in some way a reach but maybe I just was so put off by the ick factor in your title that I couldn't open my mind that much to where you were going.

    At any rate, Hutus and Tutsis are distinguishable to the eye generally (it's kinda like being able to discern who is Italian and who is Swedish) and are different ethnic groups.

    Get With the Pogrom
    Authored by: xteeth on Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 01:36 PM GMT+5
    Perhaps you might want to read the book. There are many who claim to be able to tell Republicans from Democrats by looking at pictures but that, like the rest is baloney. In this case, the thin noses, height differences and on and on - baloney by those who would like not to see the evil men do. Blame it on the Belgians, Blame it on the Birth Baggers. Just more baloney. I was tempted to bring in the Bosnians, Serbs and Croatians but while mostly white, there are ethnic distinctions.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Get With the Pogrom
    Authored by: SpudHill on Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 02:09 PM GMT+5
    Actually I intend to read the book.

    However some of your statements are a bit inaccurate as I said.
    It isn't exactly the same thing as
    distinguishing from a Republican and Democrat. I mean really
    what would you say the characteristics of a Republican are as
    opposed to a Democrat? Personally I would be hard pressed
    to walk through downtown today and pick out the Dems and
    Republicans. Do you think you could?

    And I did find the title of the post a little flippant but perhaps not intended to be so. The song Toot-Toot-Tootsie for me conjures up
    images of Al Jolsen in black face in an old movie...seemed a little
    inappropriate on a few levels. But as I say, perhaps unintended on your part, you may not know that history of the song.

    Get With the Pogrom
    Authored by: xteeth on Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 02:29 PM GMT+5
    Of course I know the history of the song and I am glad to know that you know more about Burundi than Tracy Kidder was able to learn from Deo who was there during the genocide. Perhaps you were also there during those years. Guess I'll just forget to actually read books and just ask your opinion first. Isn't there something ironic about Jolson wearing black face being compared to Tutsis who were thought to be whites confined in black bodies. Oh, I forgot, you haven't read the book. But be sure to make more inane comments.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Get With the Pogrom
    Authored by: SpudHill on Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 03:00 PM GMT+5
    Oh my we're getting a little testy aren't we.
    Personally I find using the Jolsen song to make a reference to a mass slaughter a bit dubious.
    But heh maybe that's just me.
    As for your taking your entire breadth of history about Rwanda from one book, as interesting as it might be, read up, there's a lot of information about the country out there on the internets. I would never take all my information about a subject from one first hand account written by a secondary writer.
    And no I wasn't there but knew people who had family there and sat for days waiting anxiously to hear news. It was not a good time. Which may be why I find your title, all cleverness aside, a little icky.
    Get With the Pogrom Little Ray of Sunshine
    Authored by: paulgardner on Tuesday, March 16 2010 @ 05:41 AM GMT+5
    My response was intentionally over the top.

    It was based on the number of anomalies in everyday life that have occurred in the past decade. To me it's pretty spooky.
    The first thing that comes to mind is Freedom Cages versus guns at presidential events. Everybody remembers the way Bush 43 events were prescreened to make sure only Bush voters got in and non Bush voters were put in holding pens a mile away from the site sometimes? Meanwhile at Obama rallies guys are walking around outside with guns and we're told that's their right and get used to it...
    So you tell me: is this not a clear statement that if you chose to hold "lefty beliefs" you will surrender some of your rights?
    Get With the Pogrom Little Ray of Sunshine
    Authored by: SpudHill on Tuesday, March 16 2010 @ 08:27 AM GMT+5
    I'll keep my freedoms and my liberals views too thank you.
    Get With the Pogrom Little Ray of Sunshine
    Authored by: paulgardner on Tuesday, March 16 2010 @ 08:45 AM GMT+5
    I'd like to keep both as well, but...
    Have you been following the case of former Alabama Gov. Don Siegelman?
    Read this if not familiar with his case:
    http://www.alternet.org/rights/78407/
    Now, tell me, do you feel your freedoms are still intact?
    For the record: this article is from 3/3/08 and since then Seigelman was given a parole so the case could be revued, but the original conclusion was confirmed and US AG Eric Holder of the supposedly liberal Obama admin refused to look at the decision.
    Get With the Pogrom Little Ray of Sunshine
    Authored by: SpudHill on Tuesday, March 16 2010 @ 09:19 AM GMT+5
    The Seigelman case was a travesty on many levels and the connections between those who prosecuted him and people in the Bush administration very telling. I think this points to how easily one can lose one's "freedoms" when the wrong people are in power. Somehow I doubt we'll see a repeat of anything this obviously wrong in the current administration.
    Get With the Pogrom Little Ray of Sunshine
    Authored by: SpudHill on Tuesday, March 16 2010 @ 09:33 AM GMT+5
    You know it's interesting that Holder originally called for a new investigation and then this fall Special Counsel stated that the "new evidence" given by a whistleblower had no credibility and Holder had by then stepped back. I haven't been following this case that closely and know that Holder is receiving static for not stepping in but I'm wondering if this is a case of 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Obviously the prosecution of Siegelman was full of suspicious activites but I wonder if Holder is stepping back because there is also some culpability on Siegelman's part? Don't know, hard to find out anything about what's really going on here without going through all the transcripts I guess.

    But when I say this sort of thing wouldn't happen with the current administration I am referring to the obvious set-up part of this case. I think they wouldn't play so fast and loose with the law in this administration.
    Get With the Pogrom Little Ray of Sunshine
    Authored by: paulgardner on Tuesday, March 16 2010 @ 08:30 PM GMT+5
    Thom Hartmann has repeatedly presented Siegelman as a man framed but innocent.
    What I found interesting is that Siegelman's own website has a link to a story which essentially lays out what you suggest. Siegelman illegally took favors from a leading Alabama businessman -but so did all his GOP rivals.
    The injustice here is not onlythat Siegelman was the only one punished, but that the judge and the prosecutor had serious conflicts of interest. Jeff Sessions (now US Senator) was a Federal judge in Alabama at that point and Laura Canary the federal prosecutor whose husband was the campaign manager of Siegelman's opponent, current Al. Gov. Bob Riley.
    On top of all that, Karl Rove appears to have been heavily involved. He has close personal ties in the Alabama political community, a house and business interests down there.
    Get With the Pogrom Little Ray of Sunshine
    Authored by: SpudHill on Thursday, March 18 2010 @ 01:15 PM GMT+5
    Oh yeah, the Sessions, Canary Rove connection in this is what stinks to high heaven. My thought is that he was set up and for political purposes .My suspicion is that when Holder looked into this while part of the charges (the part Hartman always mentions) seems really "ginned" up there's another big chunk that looks a lot more complicated and there must be some reason why Holder stepped back. Sadly I"m suspecting that while he was purposefully gone after there's enough behind the charges that Holder had to step back.
    Goodbye, Don't Cry.
    Authored by: tamo on Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 03:31 PM GMT+5
    What is fascinating to me here is watching a thoughtful discussion about a subject both important and poorly understood devolve so rapidly into a nasty back-n-forth. This, to me, confirms the initial point xteeth was making about how violence can be just around the bend in the road. I see this tendency often, both in myself and others -- offense taken at perceived disrespect that escalates until it becomes violent or one party leaves, and I often don't know what to do about it. trying to dig in to find the 'ideals' that drive the other person's thinking can help, as can setting one's thoughts or opinions aside to listen deeply to the other.
    Goodbye, Don't Cry.
    Authored by: SpudHill on Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 03:43 PM GMT+5
    That you see this back and forth as proof of the theory that because of the Rwandan situation violence is just around the corner here is about as vaild as the comparison. Just stating the fact that the premise was faulty to begin with as this was a very different situation in Rwanda than making an argument that violence might break out at any point here.

    I actually think the book sounds interesting and will read it but I don't find my pointing out some inaccuracies in the theory an example of being violent (oh forgot to put the LOL after the rays of sunshine comment....sorry). Maybe it's just a personal thing but I like to see factual information and some of this wasn't. And I found the title a bit too cute, I don't think my saying so portends violence t come but heh If I scared you sorry, I'll go take a couple of sedatives and try and calm down.
    Staggering but common twaddle
    Authored by: xteeth on Sunday, March 14 2010 @ 08:04 AM GMT+5
    The introductory opinion piece presented facts from the book that I have just read. For someone who hasn't read the book and yet claim that the facts in the book are false or not there gives new meaning to the word fatuous. The theory, as is common in science and other places perhaps unknown to this critique, is based upon the facts from the book he hasn't read.

    Feel free to produce your own facts. It is quite common these days to just make them up if those presented don't fit with your preconceived notions. But it is the definition of a stretch to claim that facts taken from this book aren't there and that speculation based upon those facts is faulty as the facts aren't really in the book.

    Which makes me fear for the education of people with computers. Attack what you will I certainly do. But I base my attacks upon my facts. Present contrary theories, support those with your own facts. That is the nature of argument but this birth bagger approach of denying that about which you know nothing is a embarrassment.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Staggering but common twaddle
    Authored by: SpudHill on Sunday, March 14 2010 @ 10:57 AM GMT+5
    Okay
    Your premise:
    "There is no way to tell a Hutu from a Tutsi. No particular ethnic, religious, physical appearance distinctions. Kind of made me think of the difference between Republicans and Democrats. Could you tell the difference? "

    So first to disprove your statement that there was no difference between the two groups I'll quote you in a later post:
    "Isn't there something ironic about Jolson wearing black face being compared to Tutsis who were thought to be whites confined in black bodies." (my note: this was because Tutsis are considered to be lighter skinned than Hutus, in fact, when the Belgium colonists made the distinction with the identity cards, this was one of the main definitions of a Tutsi)

    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your premise that strife could happen here based on vague differences, my particular concern is the religious right. I just think that when discussing the possibilities of this type of violence breaking out here (and I agree that it is possible) that we should be careful when making comparisons to situations like Rwanda. The horror of Rwanda to me is that it WAS based on perceptions of differences (socio-economic and physical) and this is a pretty frightening thought but certainly not new to the history of man.

    I am just saying that your statement that there were no differences isn't accurate, there were many differences for varying reasons, there is disagreement about how the distinctions were determined but certainly socio-economic differences and physical differences have been acknowledged by many. If the book claims not then perhaps the author made the error not the subject because there are many books that take up this issue.

    I really don't understand why this infuriates you so much, I'm not discrediting the book. I think it sounds interesting.

    But since you're resorting to expressions like staggering but common twaddle, nice turn of phrase by the way, this will be it for me.

    For the sake of brevity I'll list just some web sites


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Tutsi_and_Hutu
    Ugandan scholar Mahmoud Mamdani identifies at least four distinct foundations for studies that support the "distinct difference between Hutu and Tutsi" school of thought: phenotype, genotype, cultural memory of inhabitants of Rwanda, and archeology/linguistics.
    Contents

    http://worldnews.about.com/od/africa/f/tutsihutu.htm
    many geneticists have been hard-pressed to find marked ethnic differences between the two, though the Tutsi have generally been noted to be taller. Many believe that German and Belgian colonizers tried to find differences between the Hutu and Tutsi in order to better categorize native peoples in their censuses.

    http://www.quakerfront.com/2008/06/12/hutu-tutsi-before-colonialism/


    Generally, the Hutu-Tutsi strife stems from class warfare, with the Tutsis perceived to have greater wealth and social status (as well as favoring cattle ranching over what is seen as the lower-class farming of the Hutus). The Tutsis are thought to have originally come from Ethiopia, and arrived after the Hutu came from Chad. The Tutsis had a monarchy dating back to the 15th century; this was overthrown at the urging of Belgian colonizers in the early 1960s and the Hutu took power by force in Rwanda. In Burundi, however, a Hutu uprising failed and the Tutsis controlled the country.

    http://www.africagenweb.org/rwanda/index.html

    http://www.isteve.com/film_hotel_rwanda.htm

    http://academic.udayton.edu/Race/06hrights/GeoRegions/Africa/Rwanda01.htm
    http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/flashbks/rwanda/atlrep.htm
    http://morganinafrica.blogspot.com/2009/04/international-symposium-on-genocide_05.html
    http://www.allbusiness.com/public-administration/executive-legislative/4108594-1.html
    http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/flashbks/rwanda/atlrep.htm
    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Bishop-of-Rwanda/John-Rucyahana/e/9780849900525
    Staggering but common twaddle
    Authored by: mr.mike on Sunday, March 14 2010 @ 11:26 AM GMT+5
    It appears that xteeth's posting is to point out what kind of scenario we may see play out here. I'm not sure if xteeth is refering to an ethnic cleansing between Democrats and Republicans.

    "Kind of made me think of the difference between Republicans and Democrats. Could you tell the difference? Really? " I don't think there is much difference between most on either side of the aisle.

    The "ethnic cleansing" they're participating in now is the destruction of our Constitution.

    ---
    Wasn't Calvin Coolidge from Vermont? Boy you'd never know it looking at Vermont today.
    Staggering but common twaddle
    Authored by: tamo on Sunday, March 14 2010 @ 07:51 PM GMT+5
    I hear you on that one, and the whole planet along with it.
    Staggering but common twaddle
    Authored by: SpudHill on Sunday, March 14 2010 @ 08:23 PM GMT+5
    To describe changes in laws or additions of laws or changes in how we're governed as ethnic cleansing is not only nonsensical it is actually a rather callous take on what is a true horror. If you've ever been acquainted with someone who's had to watch and wonder about family from a distance while ethnic cleansing was going on in their home country you wouldn't throw the expression around so easily.
    Tu Tu Tutsi Goodbye, Tu Tu Tutsi Don't Cry.
    Authored by: xteeth on Monday, March 15 2010 @ 07:18 AM GMT+5
    I am amazed at all the knowledge of this book expressed by those who haven't read it. I am pretty sure that I don't even know a Tutsi, let alone a Hutu - after all I live where the black man don't go - New Hampshire. Now when you can say, "No, xteeth, on page such and such it doesn't say that you can't tell a Tutsi from a Hutu," and that people all over the world never claim to be able to tell their oppressors from their sycophants, I'll continue this argument. Until then, I'll just think sarcastically of these claims. This is a sort of poor book report after all.

    I read for the purpose of learning about things I haven't experienced, not for the purpose of reinforcing things I already believe. A lot of things out of my experience occurred in Africa maybe everything. A lot of those experiences were, to my mind, exceptionally ugly. (Did Mobutu joke about "serving Lumumba" at a dinner after Lumumba's murder?) I thought that learning a little of another's experience there, in those situations, might lend an air of caution to our behavior here. Sorry, I seem to be wrong again. My assessment is that when I attempted to give force to the inclination to read this book, I lit the very fire about which I wished to caution. It seems that the belligerent party is beyond caution, as I have feared. Open carry at political events, black face on our first black president, threats of violence against those "destroying the constitution" are all part of the mix.

    ---
    "Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go." Oscar Wilde
    Tu Tu Tutsi Goodbye, Tu Tu Tutsi Don't Cry.
    Authored by: SpudHill on Monday, March 15 2010 @ 08:01 AM GMT+5
    Well I am in total agreement with your last paragrpah and share your concerns about much of what you mention. I guess I just think that the message that should be taken is to not see each other as the "other" as you do also but just want to see the situation in Rwanda presented with a little more basis in what seems to be general consensus about how it developed. Knowing what the actual background and history of the situation was sheds light on how these situations develop n'est pas?

    The book sounds interesting and I will read it.
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