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    US Financial Game Almost Up    
    Tuesday, November 15 2005 @ 07:19 PM GMT+4
    Contributed by: Anonymous

    OtherNext, there's some information I need to share with you, fellow Brattleboro friends and associates:

    First, consider this:

    Last Friday, this low-key announcement was quietly placed on the Federal Reserve website:

    "On March 23, 2006, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve
    System will cease publication of the M3 monetary aggregate. The Board will
    also cease publishing the following components: large-denomination time
    deposits, repurchase agreements (RPs), and Eurodollars."

    Holy smokes!!!!

    This means that the Federal Reserve has decided that whatever amount of
    monetary creation it shortly envisions, it would rather not report upon.

    This statistic has been reported for decades and is used by foreign central
    banks and economists for their own purposes and calculations.

    The fact that it will be dropped is being viewed with great concern across
    the pond. Over here, needless to say, it is relatively unreported.

    Here's a good link if you wish to read more:
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/11/16272/574

    Next, take a close look at the article below....then read my comments at the
    end.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------

    A 'Fiscal Hurricane' on the Horizon
    Economists Say Unchecked Spending Will Trigger Recessions and Worse
    By Richard Wolf, USA TODAY

    WASHINGTON (Nov. 15) - The comptroller general of the United States is
    explaining over eggs how the nation's finances are going to hell. "We face a
    demographic tsunami" that "will never recede," David Walker tells a group of
    reporters. He runs through a long list of fiscal challenges, led by the
    imminent retirement of the baby boomers, whose promised Medicare and Social
    Security benefits will swamp the federal budget in coming decades.

    The breakfast conversation remains somber for most of an hour. Then one
    reporter smiles and asks, "Aren't you depressed in the morning?"

    Sadly, it's no laughing matter. To hear Walker, the nation's top auditor,
    tell it, the United States can be likened to Rome before the fall of the
    empire. Its financial condition is "worse than advertised," he says. It has
    a "broken business model." It faces deficits in its budget, its balance of
    payments, its savings - and its leadership.

    Walker's not the only one saying it. As Congress and the White House
    struggle to trim up to $50 billion from the federal budget over five years -
    just 3% of the $1.6 trillion in deficits projected for that period - budget
    experts say the nation soon could face its worst fiscal crisis since at
    least 1983, when Social Security bordered on bankruptcy.

    Without major spending cuts, tax increases or both, the national debt will
    grow more than $3 trillion through 2010, to $11.2 trillion - nearly $38,000
    for every man, woman and child. The interest alone would cost $561 billion
    in 2010, the same as the Pentagon.

    >From the political left and right, budget watchdogs are warning of fiscal
    trouble:

    · Douglas Holtz-Eakin, director of the non-partisan Congressional Budget
    Office, dispassionately arms 535 members of Congress with his agency's stark
    projections. Barring action, he admits to being "terrified" about the budget
    deficit in coming decades. That's when an aging population, health care
    inflation and advanced medical technology will create a perfect storm of
    spiraling costs.

    · Maya MacGuineas, president of the bipartisan Committee for a Responsible
    Federal Budget, sees a future of unfunded promises, trade imbalances, too
    few workers and too many retirees. She envisions a stock market dive, lost
    assets and a lower standard of living.

    · Kent Conrad, a Democratic senator from North Dakota, points to the
    nation's $7.9 trillion debt, rising by about $600 billion a year. That, he
    notes, is before the baby boom retires. "We're not preparing for what we all
    know is to come," he says. "We're all sleepwalking through this period."

    · Stuart Butler of the conservative Heritage Foundation projects a period
    from now until 2050 in which tax revenue stays stable as a share of the
    economy but Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security spending soars. To avoid
    big tax increases, he says the government has to "renegotiate" the social
    contracts it made with its citizens.

    · Alice Rivlin and Isabel Sawhill of the centrist Brookings Institution put
    their pessimism into a book titled Restoring Fiscal Sanity. Rivlin, who
    became the first director of the Congressional Budget Office in 1974, says
    it will take an "economic scare" such as the 1987 stock market crash to spur
    action. Sawhill likens the growing gulf between what the government spends
    and takes in to a "Category 6 fiscal hurricane."

    More at:
    http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/business/article.adp?id=20051115072509990003&_ccc
    =5&cid=403
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------

    Taken together, all the signs are indicating that this spring the Federal
    Reserve is anticipating some heavy-duty action that will require them to
    literally "print up a mountain".

    Should this happen, and the world revolts against this unwanted flood of US
    dollars, things could easily get, um, interesting.

    The key to it all will be to watch the interest rates.

    They are the core of the US bubble 'reactor'.

    Its looking like this gig is nearly up.

    What can you do?! Plan ahead:

    -- Food & Water: Community gardens in Brattleboro and the area. On your own land if you have it?

    -- Think about how you will stay warm!

    -- If you have the resources . . . consider buying gold and putting it away safely. The dollar is going to devalue. Also, those plastic cards will likely simply stop working.

    -- Meet your neighbors. Nobody will survive in isolation, only communitys stand a chance. Violence breeds violence, lets not go there.

    -- Change is normal in history, and while scary and result in better things on the other side. Lets ride the storm rather than let it ride us!

     

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  • US Financial Game Almost Up | 36 comments | Create New Account
    The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they may say.
    US Financial Game Almost Up?
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Tuesday, November 15 2005 @ 09:41 PM GMT+4
    This is one group's assertion. There are others who say the crash won't
    happen until 2007 (springtime), and then there are those who say
    there won't be a crash for even longer, and then there are those who
    say the crash has already started. Stocking up on water and land
    might not be enough to save you. Look what happened to the
    Germans when the deutschmark crashed, in 1920. Home gardens
    weren't enough. And I remember way back in 1999, when Y2K hit.
    Boy was that ever a mess! Entire computer systems broke down,
    nuclear warheads were fired, and many of us died. :)

    A healthy dose of skepticism protects against rabid gullibility. If in
    fact things do turn out for the worst, there's nothing wrong with
    having examined all the options before rushing out to build that bomb
    shelter in your backyard. And a diverse portfolio is ALWAYS a good
    idea.
    US Financial Game Almost Up?
    Authored by: Susie Q on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 07:59 AM GMT+4
    Be as skeptical as you want Love Buddy! Our nation will last FORVER right?! History doesn't show that change always happens, no, quite the opposite! America Uber Alles!

    All kidding aside. No nation has has ever been in NEARLY the debt we are, and that debt expands insanely. There simply is no way out from that.

    Google on these terms: "Fiat money", "Fractional Banking", and more.

    3800 (yes 3800) economic systems have tried using a fiat money system like we are now. It has always ended horribly. The Y2k comparison was silly. And the German comparison? Not long after that the Marks value DID go completely bottom up . . . and we all know what happened next.

    I don't want to be in a car accident, and don't believe I will be - but I buckle my seatbelt anyways. But do what you will. When your ATM card stops working and the Piggly Wiggly empties out, just don't come to OUR farm looking for food please!

    The only constant in history is change. Look back . . . it always happens.
    I like the way you walk, I like the way you talk, Susie Q
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 12:01 PM GMT+4
    Say hi to Dale Hawkins for me, baby!

    All kidding aside, I'm not saying the US dollar ISN'T going to crash;
    I'm saying I don't know WHEN. It's pretty obvious that Bush is
    spending too much and leading to a potential crisis. The Chinese are
    not interested in a crash, because it will ruin their export markets.

    I looked up "fractional banking" in Google like you said.
    http://www.kitco.com/ind/Daughty/feb022005.html
    The guy compared the US situation today with Wiemar GERMANY--
    JUST AS I SAID! (par. 7 in the column) I guess you could say I'm
    thinking on the same wavelength as this economist.

    What reminded me of the Y2K scare was when you started talking
    about stocking up, living off the land, hoarding water, etc. Even when
    my parents and grandparents went through the depression, there was
    still a society in place. I'm comparing your alarmist statement with
    history, with my German friends' parents who suffered through
    Weimar Germany (they said it was bad, but far worse when they had
    to starve after WWII and ate rotten potatoes and tulip bulbs), and I
    don't think things will get that bad next year. Besides, I see 2006 as a
    good year to turn the Senate around and just maybe the House. This
    is what James Galbraith is predicting too. We cannot continue on
    Bushit economics, I think we both agree.

    It's just that the crisis I see isn't economic; it's global warming and
    water shortages down the road, when the glaciers that supply a lot of
    the world's water melt away. THEN you will see mass panic and
    turmoil.

    Now back to my Dale Hawkins CD...My favorite tune by him isn't his
    1957 classic "Susie Q" but his "Worried About You Baby." THAT
    rocks!!!!
    US Financial Game Almost Up?
    Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 02:31 PM GMT+4
    Susie says that if the economy crashes and you get into trouble: "just don't come to OUR farm looking for food please!"

    Suppose her family loses their farm...does she then figure that the rest of us should have no sympathy either, and turn a cold shoulder?

    The truth is, if there is a crash, we will all be in it together, and our ability to function as a community giving mutual aid to one another will be tested and challenged.
    US Financial Game Almost Up?
    Authored by: Susie Q on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 04:00 PM GMT+4
    Well, that was really grumpy hungry lunchtime talk.

    Fact is we DO want to help out our community. We will feed as many as we can. We worry more about the tens of millions of folks living south of us in NYC, Boston and etc who are SCREWED when things hit the wall, marching north and looking for food, water and warmth. If that happens, we are all SOL I suppose though.

    And we have less chance of losing our farm than you probably have of losing your place . . . we got completely out of debt recetly. If you have mortgage/car/credit card debt, and things go south - the bank is backed up by the military if need be in taking what is theirs.

    After the great depression, every American knew "don't have debt". Then in the 80's we seemed to forget that, an economist recently commented to me "Americans are about to learn that lesson again".

    Nobody said anything about timing. A long slow grind? A quick break? Next year? Ten years from now? Nobody knows the timing. The only certainty that history shows is that radical change always DOES happen at some point.

    Carpe Diem, enjoy life and live with pleasure -- but wearing a seatbelt is smart. And most Amercans are currently car surfing on the roof during rush-hour traffic!
    US Financial Game Almost Up
    Authored by: spoon on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 07:11 PM GMT+4
    I really don't follow much of this stratospheric economic lingo but I sent this over for analysis to one of my financial consultants. Here's what returned.

    ************

    Thanks for the info. Specific answer to specific question, Those particular items the Fed will cease publishing separately are the large-amount items not now included in M2. My guess is that they will henceforth be included in M2. I don't understand why the Fed is doing this, but I don't now have time to investigate what they are saying "across the pond." I'm adapting the article I wrote five years ago on our monetary policy, titled "Flying Blind" (which you can find on our web site if you are interested) to a new article titled "Challenge for Bernanke", which I'll send you when completed.

    All the comments on coming catastrophe remind me of what chicken littles were saying about the Y2K problem five years ago. Risk is there, for sure, but I believe enough people are going to wake up before the 2006 election to throw the Republicans out an impeach Bush and roll back much of the damage they have done.

    The coming retirement bulge is less important than much of the scare stuff suggests. As a % of GDP it is relatively small, and private pension funds will face the same financing problem as the fed. govt.

    The thing to watch is Bush relation to China. If Bush allows Taiwan to opt for independence, China has said they will not permit it, and the Chinese have been accumulating US bonds as their defense fund (in addition to their submarines and missiles) . If Bush sends warships to the Taiwan strait, the Chinese will sell those bonds, shooting US interest rates up so fast there will be a revolt in Wall St., and Bush policy will be reversed as fast as US policy was reversed when "we" sent our navy to intervene in the Taiwan strait in 1950 to prevent China from regaining Taiwan control then.

    Bestoluck,



    ---
    spoon agave
    US Financial Game Almost Up
    Authored by: Susie Q on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 07:39 PM GMT+4
    Good observations by your friend Spoon. One oversight though, is to blame this on current politicians only. Clinton, Reagan, Bush I & II -- none of them have helped cure the real underlying problem and charade.

    Really since Nixon slammed the gold window in 1971 - our currency has become no more "real" than monopoly money. Our money now represents the output of our printing presses, no more. Its now a "Fiat" currancy, only valuable because the government SAYS it is valuable.

    Inflation? Its not some law of gravity, íts not "normal". Inflation only happens Fiat currancy systems. Its not goods/services getting more expensive - its money LOSING value. And they printed up a little more than $30,000,000,000 new ones last month. From nothing, from air.

    Right now the US dollar is the international trading reserve currancy. So all the foreign banks hold our debt. The debt is getting too high, they are starting to grumble . . . and they are going to call in their cards.

    Our only trump card is that we are more heavily armed than anybody else. Pretty ethical eh? We are just holding a gun to the worlds head.

    This isn't about current politics - this is 30 years of frittering away our worth. History shows very clearly the result of these economic policies.

    Don't believe me . . . just watch and wait.


    ---------------------
    GREAT site:

    The Grandfathers Economic Report
    http://mwhodges.home.att.net/
    The Gold Standard Myth debunked
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 08:06 PM GMT+4
    By Paul Krugman, among others, also by Keynes and Galbraith.

    Go here: http://www.pkarchive.org/cranks/goldbug.html

    and here: www.answers.com/topic/gold-standard

    Chastize Bush for spending more than the US can bring in or save, but
    NOT for the gold standard myth! FDR got us off that and for the better.
    Just read the contrasting views in economics and see for yourself. There
    are many other measures of GDP and economic health than one of the
    precious metals.
    more on the gold standard myth
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 08:10 PM GMT+4
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north177.html

    This guy's analysis is good for those who never took an economics
    course.
    Shallow Analysis debunked
    Authored by: Susie Q on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 08:34 PM GMT+4
    The point has nothing to do with gold. That is just any one thing you can tie a currency to in order to make it money doesn't = simply a printing press.

    "Goldbugs" - who ascribe magical economic stabilization powers to Gold/Silver itself miss the real point. The real point is that if your Government's currancy means nothing more than what they have declared it to mean by fiat . . . . history shows how it ends. Always.

    But as long as you continue producing things the rest of the world needs, and hold the worlds reserve currancy. You can thrive. But as soon as you become say: the most obese, lazy, hedonistic, uneducated, violent, industrialized nation on the planet . . . and a net exporter of goods and services. Sooner or later your fiat currancy loses all percieved powers.

    I've looked at your sites, you really should look at this one:

    http://mwhodges.home.att.net/
    more on the endless summer myth
    Authored by: Susie Q on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 08:38 PM GMT+4
    A summary of 5 core threats to our childrens future is well put here on the Grandfathers Economic Report:

    http://mwhodges.home.att.net/summary.htm

    Here is the title of each threat:

    #1 Core Problem: INCREASED GOVERNMENT-DOMINANCE OF OUR ECONOMY

    #2 Core Problem: POOR EDUCATION QUALITY PERFORMANCE:

    #3 Core Problem: INCREASED DEBT-DEPENDENCE

    #4 Core Problem: EXPLODING INTERNATIONAL INDEBTEDNESS

    #5 Core Problem: ENERGY - - LOSS OF INDEPENDENCE
    FOR THE LIFE-BLOOD OF OUR STANDARD OF LIVING
    Shallow Analysis debunked?
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 08:46 PM GMT+4
    I looked at your site and it's full of "Supply side" Reagan guru Milton
    Friedman's bunk! I can't figure out if you're one of the anti-government
    left that Krugman and Galbraith talk about, or one of the libertarian right
    wingers like Jack Kemp's staffers?

    I must reemphasize that the USA is in serious economic crisis if we don't
    cut down on Bush spending, which is going to ultimately ruin the dollar.
    But to go back to the gold standard...WHY??? It's just, as John Maynard
    Keynes, one of the brightest economists ever to grace the planet said,
    just a "dead metal." Please explain your rationale.
    Let's not return to the age of less government and bigger robber barons
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 08:55 PM GMT+4
    Without government, there is anarchy and tyranny of private
    corporations. What we need to do is reform government so that, as
    James Galbraith says, it stands to protect the worker from the excesses
    of the ownership class, but doesn't put out the fires of capitalism. It's a
    balancing act. Only in America do these, dare I say it, "cranky" theories
    seem to come up. In Europe, it would be inconceivable to write off
    government. It just needs to be cleaned up by progressive reform.
    Let's not return to the age of less government and bigger robber barons
    Authored by: George Tirebiter on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 09:09 PM GMT+4
    Anarchy simply means without government. We've never tried it so you
    can't presume that it would lead to tyranny of corporations. Corporations
    would be greatly lessened because currently they run our government.

    The question is what would there be without corporations? If you had a
    country where communities didn't rely on corporations or government
    handouts but had to exist independently, would there be tyranny? Of
    course, would there be chaos? Why, that would be anti-anarchy. Only
    governments create chaos. There would be hard work, and everybody
    would have to pull their share.

    Much like the Native American tribes that existed without centralized
    government, wars might be fought but not for political objectives but over
    food. I can see that. I can see that battles would continue, but I would
    much rather have no government, no police, no military and live freely
    than to be enslaved by capitalism.

    Seriously, I would much rather have a richer life shared with a group of
    people I could help, rather than to live in an isolated situation and have to
    rely on my diversified portfolio, or handouts, or sell myself to a non-entity
    corporation only interested in exploiting my talents for itself not for
    anybody else, certainly not for the local community or townspeople.
    That's my two cents. But you'll have to take that on credit cause I don't
    got two cents to spare. ;)
    Simplistic stereotyping
    Authored by: Susie Q on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 09:21 PM GMT+4
    >>I looked at your site and it's full of "Supply side" Reagan guru Milton
    Friedman's bunk!<<

    Its not ''my'' site actually, its just one site. And you are a remarkably fast reader to have read his large collection of facts so quickly! (all sourced to such whackos as the U.S. Treasury site and historical stock & asset pricing). Its "full'' of no such thing.

    >>I can't figure out if you're one of the anti-government
    left that Krugman and Galbraith talk about, or one of the libertarian right wingers like Jack Kemp's staffers?<<

    Neither actually, but I suppose I envy the simplicity of possessing a mind which works best by pegging everybody into such neat little definitions!

    >>I must reemphasize that the USA is in serious economic crisis if we don't
    cut down on Bush spending, which is going to ultimately ruin the dollar.<<

    Yes. I agree, it wasn't just Bush that put us here. But the corporate control of our government has gone from being more subtle to now just outright raping and pillaging of us all.

    >>But to go back to the gold standard...WHY???<<

    Nor did I say that. But do you think there should be any set control and feeback mechanism on money? Or does all that matters is who controls the printing presses?

    Let's not return to the age of less government and bigger robber barons
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 09:42 PM GMT+4
    George, ever lived on a commune, back in the sixties? I have friends
    who did, and most of them left after being majorly disillusioned. The
    fact is, "share everything" usually meant the "chicks" did all the
    cleaning, guys wanted lots of sexual partners in many cases, whereas
    fewer of the women wanted more than one exclusive partner, and the
    sharing fell apart. It was (at least in Northern CA where my friends
    were) a big mess. As for advocating no government, even the Indians
    of North America had organization and hierarchy. Don't kid yourself.
    In fact, it was the Iroquois Confederacy that inspired people like Ben
    Franklin to set up some of the forms of democracy that they practiced
    when the US was set up. All of human existance, from hunter gatherer
    to modern times, hints toward greater and more efficient organization,
    not less, and certainly not a Rousseau type "noble savage" anarchy.
    As for your not having enough money, I'm sorry but I've loaned
    money to many people and never got paid back. I'd rather vote for a
    better economic system so that people don't have to come to me for
    money. Getting single payer health care would be one such leap
    forward. But that'll take government of and by the people.
    Simplistic gold standard myth
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 09:57 PM GMT+4
    "Its not ''my'' site actually, its just one site. And you are a
    remarkably fast reader to have read his large collection of facts so
    quickly! (all sourced to such whackos as the U.S. Treasury site and
    historical stock & asset pricing)."

    Like JFK, I can read pretty quickly. I read at least a book a day, so it
    may surprise you how quickly I can absorb a page of data.

    >>I can't figure out if you're one of the anti-government
    left that Krugman and Galbraith talk about, or one of the libertarian
    right wingers like Jack Kemp's staffers?<<

    Neither actually, but I suppose I envy the simplicity of possessing a
    mind which works best by pegging everybody into such neat little
    definitions!"

    I was just trying to find out where you were coming from. Most people
    identify with one or two camps, like the "Vermont Independence"
    people, or the Progressives, or Republicans, etc. I wanted to know if
    you were anti-government radical left (like the Weathermen) or
    libertarian-leaning (like Milton Friedman or George Will).

    "Yes. I agree, it wasn't just Bush that put us here. But the corporate
    control of our government has gone from being more subtle to now
    just outright raping and pillaging of us all."

    That's why, as Warren Beatty and Jon Hartmann have said, we need
    as people "we the people" to take back government for the people.
    Not throw it away in some anarchist rage, like the kids in Chicago,
    who by protesting HHH, ensured Nixon's election.

    >>But to go back to the gold standard...WHY???<<
    "Nor did I say that. But do you think there should be any set control
    and feeback mechanism on money? Or does all that matters is who
    controls the printing presses?"

    So you DON'T advocate going back to the gold standard??? I'm pretty
    sure you stated just that in previous posts (see your posts above).
    Advocating who controls the printing presses is a simplistic argument.
    It's more like, as John Maynard Keynes would say, I advocate
    combining the goods and services (but an update of what constitutes
    'services' is in order for modern times) and looking at what the total
    output of what the nation produces is worth. We need to reexamine
    natural resources, because they are not as free as supply siders would
    argue. Once the fisheries off Newfoundland were depleted, they were
    gone. Priceless management of resources like this are why we NEED
    government, to manage them from individual greed. We also need a
    strong government to do what Eliot Spitzer has advocated, which is to
    prosecute corporations that pollute, rob the stockholders, and do other
    misdeeds. What we need again is not a running away from the
    problem, but a facing up to it and FIXING it. It's not beyond repair.
    Read Thom Hartmann's excellent book: "WE The People." I highly
    recommend it.

    Let's not return to the age of less government and bigger robber barons
    Authored by: George Tirebiter on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 10:00 PM GMT+4
    So corporations would not run an anarchy? That's a relief. Did the
    Iroquois collect taxes? Did they give kickbacks to the Iroquois Bank and
    Iroquois Energy Company? Did they elect a President? I think they
    understood government better than you do. You speak of a dream, of a
    desire or wish. Theories. Our Democracy was an experiment not a
    theory. And when it does not work, then it is to be dismantle and we are
    to start over again. Even scientists dismantle worthless experiments and
    begin again. You can't cure a dying man.
    Detail quibbling = victorious enemy
    Authored by: Susie Q on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 10:01 PM GMT+4
    Karl Rove must love seeing this stuff. We both agree that these scumbags need to be tossed out, but "divide and conquor" works well for the opposition.

    And we are seeing this nationwide. You and me agree on a primary objective, but most of us are divided on details. And meanwhile of course - a nipple on a TV sports event sidelines all arguments. We (the USA) are so screwed, and you know what? We F'ing deserve it!
    Let's not return to the age of less government and bigger robber barons
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 10:08 PM GMT+4
    Actually, if you want to read about kickbacks and corruption in the
    ancient Americas, just read about the Mayan empire. Talk about
    corrupt!
    Do I dream about a better future? Yes. I have a dream. :)
    The framers were products of the Age of Enlightenment. Their dreams
    about this country's future were mostly not realized in the time they
    were alive. To dismantle and start over again? I'd rather evolve than
    rip apart the country. Revolutions get pretty bloody. Anyway, the
    death of the American Republic took place in 1933, when we became
    a Soviet state, because Hoover got reelected in 1932 and the people
    rioted. What we need is reform, and it's not too late. Some look at
    the patient and want to let him die; I look at the patient and want to
    heal him. Call me a dreamer if you must. Me, Thom Hartmann, Elliot
    Spitzer, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Jesse Jackson, Jr. and Barack Obama.
    We're all idealist, pie in the sky dreamers.
    Detail quibbling = victorious enemy
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 10:13 PM GMT+4
    So let's put aside some of our petty differences, not surrender to the
    neocons, and elect a compromise candidate, an Abraham Lincoln, if
    you will, who will bring back some sanity and reform.

    I agree with you that that nipple thing was a distraction. I think it's
    insane that American women have to wear tops on beaches. And
    Americans like to say how "liberated" they are! ha. It's puritanism,
    plain and simple, baby!

    Anyway, I'd like to see electoral reform but in the meantime I'd like
    to see step one: knocking the Republicans out of power in 2006 on the
    Hill. Then we can quibble about what to do next. And dump our stupid
    governor while we're in the booths. That would be a good start.
    Big Picture
    Authored by: Susie Q on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 10:19 PM GMT+4
    Yeah, the nipple thing was just one example of a TV memerized/lobotomized culture.

    Rome, in its last days -- a fat, well fed middle culture, with gladiator games and lots of wine to keep them all happy, as the treasury is looted.

    Least educated children of all industrialized nations, outsourced all of our productivity, the fattest cats writing the laws now and the gap between them and the poor continuing to grow and accelerate . . . look, I'm not going to keep working and fighing, but the writing is pretty much on the wall.

    "Empires come and go, beer and wine remain" - Unknown
    Big Picture
    Authored by: Susie Q on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 11:05 PM GMT+4
    I meant I *AM* going to keep working for change and fighting for it.

    But I can't just look at the pavement/path under my feet, looking ahead and possible pathways is natural. And like you I'm a bookworm. Book a day for much of my life . . . always wanting to grow and learn.

    I've danced from evangalistic Christian to Buddhist to pure Freethinker . . . from hardcore militant conservative to Ayn Randian Libertarian to more of a humanist-freemarketer . . . through 12 states the 3 countries finally here to Vermont.

    And I've had a happy and wonderful life, and still do. But one has to keep the blinders on and stay glued to the TV, and have no conception of the inevitable patterns of history not to see the clear writing on the wall for this nation!

    I HOPE it doesn't really change, I love my life. Even though our lifestyle (each consuming 40x what most humans do each) is pure affluenza -- for selfish reasons I'm enjoying the hell out of it like most of us are! But its not sustainable, it will end. And as the most advanced and powerful nation in history --- and the most violent and stupid now, it probably won't end nicely.

    And again, because you can't seem to reiterate this enough. *I DON'T WANT THIS TO HAPPEN* - I have a VERY sweet deal going in my life. But I can't ignore the obvious possiblities!
    Let's not return to the age of less government and bigger robber barons
    Authored by: George Tirebiter on Wednesday, November 16 2005 @ 11:32 PM GMT+4
    I don't think as you think. We're not alike. You're exactly like lancer.
    Nobody else around here thinks at all like you do. Having said that, I
    don't know what you're talking about. The Mayans? Did they have Exxon?
    You might as well have brought up the Greeks. What did they know about
    democracy? they were so corrupt! ;) Or how about the Babylonians. Or
    Moses and his followers. What did they give us? Bring up anybody if you
    like. But stop avoiding the questions. You brought up the Iroquois and
    then dodged the question about their form of government. You then
    hopped onto the Mayans. Keep focused. Stay on your topic. It's
    tiresome and impossible to follow your non-sequiturs.
    Gee, I didn't think I was &quot;off point&quot;
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Thursday, November 17 2005 @ 10:30 AM GMT+4
    "So corporations would not run an anarchy?"
    If you took away government, the last place where the citizen can
    turn to for protection and in having a say (in a democractic system),
    you leave the running of things to those who can organize and collect
    power best, which would be private conglomerates. That's a new form
    of tyranny. And when we weakened government, especially when we
    deregulated under Reagan, you saw greater corporate power filling up
    the vacuum that opened up.

    "Did the Iroquois collect taxes? Did they give kickbacks to the Iroquois
    Bank and Iroquois Energy Company? Did they elect a President?"

    The Iroquis didn't have as strong an acricultural base (like the Mayans
    and Cahokians did) but they had a tribal confederacy, which allowed
    them to bully the Algonquins to the south and take resources from
    them. They had chiefs, who I think were elected. They rotated
    leadership of the confederation between tribes who were in league.
    This way no one tribe could dictate for too long and power was shared.

    "I think they understood government better than you do."

    Well, of course that's your opinion sweetie.

    "You speak of a dream, of a desire or wish. Theories. Our Democracy
    was an experiment not a theory."

    I'm sorry, but that just isn't fact. When Washington had the Whiskey
    Rebellion put down, he wasn't experimenting. He was acting to
    preserve a young republic. Similarly, when Jefferson overthrew the
    terrible Alien and Sedition Act that his Federalist predecessor, Adams
    had enacted, he was working to hold the country together and make it
    stronger. Conversely, in 1776, when Jefferson helped write the
    Declaration of Independence and later inserted the Bill of Rights into
    the Constitution, he was dreaming that one day we would be a
    sovereign nation, always adapting, always evolving, but a strong
    nation, and he expanded the size of the nation while president.

    "And when it does not work, then it is to be dismantle and we are to
    start over again. Even scientists dismantle worthless experiments and
    begin again. You can't cure a dying man."

    I think here is where I carefully and patiently tried to tell you that I
    saw a sick but curable patient, and not a dying one. But you can go
    back and check my previous notes on the matter.

    As for "being not like anyone else on this group" I'm sorry if my
    individuality in some way hurts or dismays you. I'm an individual and
    think for myself, but if someone has good ideas, I try to listen and
    absorb them. I hold no alliances and am in no way beholden to
    anyone in this, ibrattleboro. Your assertion brings back an ugly
    memory of when I was in high school in the seventies. After about
    1972/3, when glam rock went out of fashion, I got sick of mainstream
    rock, was tired of hippie retread songs that lasted 27 minutes, and
    rediscovered early rock 'n roll, particularly Elvis on Sun, Gene Vincent
    and the Blue Caps, Dick Dale's early stuff from LA (where I was
    born), and other fast rock 'n roll songs that the radio wouldn't play
    anymore. Then in 1976, I discovered the Ramones (in the summer).
    That September I wrote about their debut lp in my high school paper,
    and said how great I thought they were and how they were a breath of
    fresh air to the music scene. But you know what the response was
    from the mainstream? Scorn and ridicule, because, "nobody else likes
    what you like!" Hmmmm.....Oh and they also said I "knew nothing
    about rock, or I would have reviewed the 'excellent' new album by
    Rush." ha ha ha ha ha! I think I'll stay true to myself, as Shakespeare
    penned it.
    Gee, I didn't think I was &amp;quot;off point&amp;quot;
    Authored by: Linaelin on Thursday, November 17 2005 @ 11:50 AM GMT+4
    In regards to the Mayan Civilization and claims Mr. Love made that it was corrupt, to which time in the civilization does Love refer? It dates back to 1000 BC, and there were people inhabiting that area back to 10,000 BC. The civilization was destroyed by the Spanish in in the 15-16th centuries. We are talking about a 2,500 year period of time.

    Mayans
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Thursday, November 17 2005 @ 12:05 PM GMT+4
    Linaelin, here's an excellent source on the Mayan civilization:
    http://www.civilization.ca/civil/maya/mmc01eng.html

    I was referring to the act of human sacrifice and brutal control that
    the Mayan leaders employed to hold the society together. Some of
    this is also mentioned in Jared Diamond's excellent book, "Collapse"
    which came out this year.

    In my understanding of history, there really are no good or bad guys
    entirely. Every culture has it's strengths and weaknesses, but the point
    I was trying to make was that there was corruption and greed in the
    Americas long before the Europeans came over with their own
    corruption and greed (and illnesses) to wipe out most of the former
    Americans and enslave and fence in the rest.
    Mayans...there's more: WOW!
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Thursday, November 17 2005 @ 01:36 PM GMT+4
    Talk about having good timing!

    NPR did a segment on a newly discovered Mayan massacre site, and you
    can listen to it online:
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5016293
    Let's not return to the age of less government and bigger robber barons
    Authored by: spoon on Thursday, November 17 2005 @ 11:00 PM GMT+4
    I'm impresssed, Tirebiter. It's rare indeed to find someone who appears tohave taken the time to examine the meaning of anarchy. I've studied it a bit. Always considered anarchy the purest form of social structure. It's definitely idealistic, relying on a level of personal maturity rarely found. That is, among other things, truly understanding that we cannot survive alone; that our personal welfare is dependent and inseparable from the welfare of the whole and thus co-operation becomes the inescapable foundation of society. Can we achieve this in a group larger than a modest tribe? We don't know yet. But life seems to take on a deeper and richer meaning when trying for it.


    ---
    spoon agave
    Anarchy doesn't work
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Thursday, November 17 2005 @ 11:08 PM GMT+4
    "Anarchy is the complete lack of political systems. In a way, it is the
    state of nature, where there are no rules and the STRONGEST HAVE
    POWER OVER THE WEAKEST. Though nations might devolve into
    anarchy following internal strife or natural disaster, anarchy cannot be
    sustained. At a minimum, an anarchic nation will produce a tyrannical
    leader, and some sense of order eventually develops."

    Quote borrowed from an excellent site, the US Constitution online:
    http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_sys.html

    Quite frankly I'm surprised that anyone sitting on the Selectboard
    would want or advocate anarchy; especially someone who says he
    cares about town planning!
    nipple!
    Authored by: Timmy on Friday, November 18 2005 @ 02:22 PM GMT+4
    tee hee - you said nipple!
    nipple again!
    Authored by: Timmy on Friday, November 18 2005 @ 02:23 PM GMT+4
    oh my gosh you said it too!
    tee hee hee!
    Anarchy doesn't work
    Authored by: cgrotke on Friday, November 18 2005 @ 03:59 PM GMT+4
    I like representatives who think about all sorts of things, even if they
    never come to pass. Creative thinking is essential. Saying something
    is idealistic, never been tried, etc. isn't really advocating it, in my
    view. Discussing things that aren't usually discussed might lead to a
    new thought.

    There was anarchy, to some degree, in New Orleans. The government
    wasn't there, police were turning in badges, and all that was left was
    each person for themselves. Most stories showed people doing
    extraordinary things to overcome their situation... forming tribes,
    sharing responsibility amoung members, caring for those who couldn't
    care for themselves.

    It didn't last long, but we saw a glimpse. A New Orleans
    representative that had studied social structures and anarchy might
    have been an asset at that moment.
    Anarchy vs. Anarchism
    Authored by: Floyd on Friday, November 18 2005 @ 09:30 PM GMT+4


    I am guessing Spoon is expressing his sentiments about anarchism rather than anarchy. Buddy corectly notes anarchy is essentially lack of social cohesion, lawlessness and disorder, a free for all.

    Anarchism on the other hand is the political philosophy that a society based on shared ownership and voluntary agreements among individuals and groups is possible and that without each person's consent and involvement in the social order all established forms of government essentially rest upon the threat of force.

    To be an anarchist is to subscribe to the the latter rather than the former.

    Anarchy vs. Anarchism: Touche Floyd
    Authored by: Mr. Buddy Love on Friday, November 18 2005 @ 09:57 PM GMT+4
    Finally, someone can make the distinction. Now I can go back to
    rereading a book on my shelf about Haymarket, 1886 and a very
    stubborn merchant, Marshall Field, who wouldn't meet labor halfway.

    As for the New Orleans observation that cgrotke made, yes, there was
    some makeshift order (but also some taking the law into their own
    hands on the part of the untrained locals) that went on in the city,
    particularly in the more intact section, the French Quarter. It wouldn't
    have lasted for long, and the very same people were begging to get
    FEMA and some order and relief.

    Whenever somebody talks wistfully about anarchy, I'm reminded of
    the novel, "Lord of the Flies." There's a reason why we want a civil
    society. The alternative is only good for the biggest and strongest.
    Anarchy vs. Anarchism: Touche Floyd
    Authored by: spoon on Friday, November 18 2005 @ 11:36 PM GMT+4
    Indeed, when the operators of ibratt are back in mode they will find a new story about anarchism. I am pleased now to find two people with a clearer eye on the subject. Of course, I already see a conundrum. Can or does and anarchist practise anarchy or anarchism? Half joking here. However for anyone wishing to pursue this more deeply, and a lot more along with it, I recommend a famous and seminal work on the subject, Property is Theft by Pierre Proudhon. Proudhon makes the transition from anarchism to co-operativism. He also makes an interesting case for the proposition that one can own property but it would be limited to one's home and the tools of one's trade.

    This is one of the most marvelous periods of modern history. In a five year span, from 1843 to 1848, we saw everything appear from modern Co-operativism to the Communist Manifesto. Property is Theft (the first clear enunciation of modern anarchism) appeared in 1844. Fourierism is another "co-operative" based philosophy that appeared around that time, tho a trifle earlier. I haven't studied it too carefully (any historians out there to flesh it out?) but it seems like a host of great thinkers, studying independently as well feeding off one another, arrived almost simultaneously at the same conclusion. Capitalism was going to destroy us. And it appears that soon it will. What they recognized was that when money and wealth keep flowing and circulating we all do well. When it begins to concentrate it immediately creates poverty. It cannot do otherwise. The more it concentrates the greater the poverty. We could hang on, as we have, as long as there was more wealth to extract from the earth. Now there isn't.

    By the way, one of the observations that led me to a deeper involvement with co-operatives was that in many ways, but not all, it embodies anarchist principles in an economic system. In the sense of being organized into fairly loose federations working together rather than in a rigid and hierarchical corporate structure. You might say, agreeing to co-operate rather than dictate to one another. Actually a bit more than that but enuf for now.

    ---
    spoon agave
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