The Brattleboro Selectboard was focused on budget and finance issues for most of their meeting. Near the beginning of the long meeting, they adopted a new solid waste plan, agreed to a contract with Casella for three years, and decided to add additional fees to the already-increased PAYT bag costs in an effort to help keep expenses down for some people in a program TBD.
Fireworks are expensive, but drones are even more expensive so Brattleboro will continue to pay for the joyful explosions upsetting pets and people with PTSD.
In the budget presentations, the police department made accusations against a selectboard member that they said accused the police department when asking questions at a recent meeting. And the fire department really wants a 42 hour work week and four platoons instead of the 56 hour week and three platoons they currently suffer under.
Apologies for autocorrects and typos…
Preliminaries
They start late. Or they forgot to turn on zoom. Or both. 6:18 pm
…
Chair Elizabeth McLoughlin – there are a lot of people here and likely to be a lot of first timers and newbies so I’ll go over the rules and make sure everyone feels welcome. (She makes people sign up for sections of the agenda if they want to speak.) Blah blah blah… that. Seth has signup sheets. If people want to speak at public participation, Seth has a sign up sheet and people can sign up, then at the beginning of each item people can queue up at that time. Everyone has 3 minutes and we have this charming little timer, and I’ll kindly remind people to wrap up. There could be a series of like comments and I’ll ask for different perspectives, then I’ll say okay the board has heard enough to deliberate then we’ll deliberate. There are five minutes for public participation and that isn’t enough so I’ll add 10 more minutes. We have many rules for the meeting. You are all invited and welcome to speak. No personal attacks, but everyone should be able to have their say. If there isn’t time you can reach out to us anytime and we all read our emails and answer the phone and appreciate your comments.
I went to the BCTV 50 year anniversary event. They provide a really good service. They out on a spectacular show. Meaningful awards and videos and do the town proud.
Town Manager John Potter – one thing – a reminder that there is a special selectboard meeting this Thursday that is all about the town wide reappraisal. Great opportunity to learn more. 6:15 pm.
Amanda Ellis-Thurber – thanks to all who came to the budget listening session. It was some people’s first time at a public meeting, so that’s why the Chair explained again. If you choose to speak, announce your name and where you are from. If the Chair needs to use the gavel due to disruption, she will until it calms.
Oscar Heller – the library and I are putting on a miniature fiction competition. 50 words or less. Prizes, categories. Go to my web site.
Isaac Evans-Frantz – the annual turkey trot is Thanksgiving morning. Make a donation of food.
Peter Case – I walked through the new substation and things happening on Flat Street. It’s coming together quite nicely. We are super excited to see it coming. Other interest in that space, too.
Liz – the miniature program is great. Museum has miniature embroidery.
Heidi F. – the meeting on Thursday – there is fear and confusion and misunderstanding about reappraisals. The director of the program will be here and explains things clearly and succinctly. Also, the consent agent – the Bittersweet Lane visit… Not sure if I need to pull it but there are errors. The staff recommendation isn’t a sentence. And it says Melrose Street rather than Bittersweet Lane in the first bullet point under process.
Potter – it’s not part of the motion.
Heidi – but the top is still confusing.
Ken F – I wanted to reiterate that the human services budget to be intact and in addition I’d like to point out what Spoon said was happening nationally is happening here – we want the homeless to disappear. Human service are for those in need and we’re pretending like the problem will solve itself. With 69A lease coming up there will be moe issues and I’d like to see the town treat it compassionately.
Kate T – downtown Brattleboro – to thank the DPW withe seasonal flower changeover and helping with holiday light display. Halloween was successful, too, with the help of the town. We can’t do any of this without you.
(Jim W. ) – Kathleen W. – part of the coalition for active transportation, last year the capital funding for pedestrians and bikes was eliminated and investing in it is about safe routes to get to school and neighbors to get to work. We urge the selectboard to restore this funding, to work on the walk-bike action plan. The Town is working to keep taxes low, and if the funding can’t be restored now we’d like to hear a plan for when it can be restored.
Mark B – Main Street – on the consent agenda – the Marigold permits are alcohol only, right? No entertainment changes? (no)
Issac – there are seats up front if people want to move up and space in the overflow space upstairs.
Consent Agenda
Marigold – Approve First and Third Class Liquor Licenses and Outside Consumption Permit
Bittersweet Lane and Wickapee Hill Schedule Site Visits and Public Hearings
Potter – There is a typo in the materials. (explains the strikes outs in the road materials)
Consented as presented 5-0
Solid Waste Management – Approve Solid Waste Contract and Program
Liz – Solid Waste Management Plan – Dan Tyler and Pete Lynch.
Potter – this is the second time, hopefully for a decision.
Dan – hopefully you have had time to go through the materials.
Liz – yes, sign up to speak about solid waste…
Dan – last time we looked at the history and different models we explored, then presented a plan we feel maintains the service people are used to and financially a better option. Municipal solid waste as PAYT – $420k in start up fees. Casella would also handle recycling, and would get carts provided by the town. Automated trucks would do collection. $716k in start up costs. Compost collection would be done by DPW, – 298k for the first year costs. Pete’s got some contract details.
Pete – as Dan said we gave a lengthy presentation and we got back to people with answers, but tonight I want to talk about overall program costs and PAYT. The first year expense is $1.4 million – not a great jump in costs with this program. There are some capital expenses we’ll have to incur, and the FY26 general fund solid waste lines and also the revolving loan fund will be used to pay. The original contract with Casella in March- the savings is $1.3 million over three years compared to that March contract. new contract will be January… a 42 month contract, plus extensions if we so choose. It included automated pickup for recycling, and handpicked of trash. Cans and dumpsters in public property included. 4.5% increase each year for trash disposal. Everything else – those prices will increase every June at 4.5%. Draft contract has been reviewed by the town attorney and they’ll look again. $1.25 million cost for Casella. PAYT will remain the same… no big changes for bags going out, the schedule will be the same. What will change – yellow bags will go to $4.50 a bag and purple bags will now be $46.75 per bag. This covers the $420k for curbside pickup and disposal. IT shifts the costs from taxpayer to the users. The bag increase is 2.25X the original price, we hope this will incentivize people to take advantage of recycling and compost and lessen products going to landfills . Happy to answer any questions.
Liz – we should have questions from the board then the pubic.
(no board)
Liz – we’re shifting to the public, and Seth has a list.
David L – I appreciate the three year break down. The question is the implementation included in the budget?
Potter – yes.
Randy – I’ve talked a couple f times. Here is a perfect opportunity to go for completion – others did it. Casella dropped their price. It gives local business a bit of it. It’s a mistake to create a new department, buy new equipment. This is more than a contract. there were no meetings to ask what other opportunities. I’m against this and hope someone makes a motion. We can’t keep spending money like water in this town.
Susan B – I said Brattleboro needs to get out of the rubbish collection business and repair roads. This is not a healthy contract. taxpayers can be more effective taking care of their own rubbish. It’s not a good deal. It’s a hostage taking situation by Casella. A built on 4.5% increase every year? To more than double the cost of trash bags to people in the community is just plain mean. We need breaks around here.
Bob S – director of WSWMD – to talk about the new compost collection program. If the town discontinued curbside collection of food scraps – there are options through WSWMD. Backyard composting, plus 6 day a week drop off. There are options if it goes away. I was hired in 2012 to bring composting to the district. IN a big way. Brattleboro is the envy of many for the food scrap program. It has been on autopilot. If we were to implement a more aggressive program, it could be more effective. Brattleboro is 32% of our population. You have a significant stake in it already. We built a new composting facility last year. We can handle all the organic waste being generated for the next several years. Happy to continue in whatever form you decide.
Fric S – I came concerned that there was a temptation to ditch competing and haven’t heard that. Might be 50% of our waste stream. I’ve been an advocate for more creativity in our outside contractors. If there is something to support local business, even if it is a bit more work, we need to get more creative and put more effort into any contracting we do with anybody. And a question… I am hoping that at some point we will get all the residential buildings and some businesses included in the pickup. It’s just silly. It does not make any practical sense to leave us with dumpsters. We’re already paying… it’s double dipping for those of us who buy dumpsters.
Pierre L – thanks for the hard work. A couple years back when we went through waste removal contracts. We should give individuals the options to opt out. Town should n’t be in the business. I don’t see adding additional employees and capital and equipment for the town to get involved, It should be each individual’s choice. As for commercial – we recycle at the Holstein building. Is the Casella contract public information?
Potter – we don’t have a contract but we have a draft and I can get that to you.
Nell M – The bin costs for recycle is up $422k, or is that overall startup?
Pete – overall. The carts are about $300k, some w’ll get in year tow.
Nell – last year we had $473k coming from the revolving loan fund in the finance committee. Will excess come from the revolving loan fund?
Pete – we expect to have money left over at FY 26, so some will be leftover that could be put to capital costs of DPW and carts. There won’t be enough to cover the entire amount, but we anticipate some money to put towards it.
Nell – the other thing – I also think there is a benefit to go to a place that goes beyond food scraps – the BPI compostable containers – you can’t do that in the backyard – it would be an individual cost to those buying bags. I don’t see the downside to municipalize the service., to try to keep the profit out and the service intact.
Bob O – kudos – the backup materials had alternatives that the staff reviewed – one item that stuck out to me not in the last – to collaborate with local haulers. There are at least three and maybe a dozen depending on the area we draw from. There are a lot we could collaborate with. A rep might be too much, and the whole town might be too much – but they could work collaboratively. Was there any looking at that?
Potter – not in the current effort, but Patrick Moreland reached out back before we signed with Casella. The general sense was the haulers weren’t interested at the time.
Dan T – we were well down the road with Casella when we took over.
Liz – the town must use the RFP process.
Potter – it is a best practice for municipal.
Gary S – people don’t have disposable cash – maybe you could have a shared business or building bin?
Liz – let’s go back to the gentlemen here to see if there are answers to talk about.
Dan – bins are just for recycling and will be provided. Trash will be PAYT. You could share a bag with your neighbor. No carts for trash at this point.
Liz – how about a discussion of the motions.
Oscar reads the motions.
Amanda – we are struggling financially as a town and need to make difficult decisions. I’m a passionate composter. I’m going to throw out that we put a pin in our municipal compost plan until January. I’d like to know more of where our budget will be. It’s $300k a year plus implementation costs, plus equipment and staff. I visited the compost today – you can bring your BPI materials. Let’s see how committed we are to composting – how about bucket exchange programs. Before we go full in on our own municipal system. WE need to know we’ll fully commit to make it work. The Casella contract is not ideal. It’s another a long term plan – it is a three year plan. We can reassess with other haulers. I want to throw that in there. I make an amendment to strike the curbside pickup of compost from the motion.
Liz – okay, so… I want to hear about the general plan then vote on your motion.
Oscar – we’ve been working on this most of the year. the idea of not doing municipal compost has come up. I think we should keep it. It’s good for the town, good for the people, people rely on it, some want it to go away, most people rely on this and would like to keep it, and I really feel like the PAYT cost for the bags is in exchange for the other free streams for solid waste. Higher bag cost is an incentive to move to the fee streams. To remove a free stream now wouldn’t work for me.
Isaac – this saves us 1.3 million over what we were at in April. They’ve turned over a lot of stones. I’m grateful that you brought down the costs. I’m okay with the changes. I do have one question – was there a survey at some point… when was that?
Potter – when we started this effort Moreland did a survey and focus groups. The overwhelming thing was people really want composting and recycling. Maybe 2 years ago.
Issac – and you’ve worked on the contract since then.
Peter – as one of the two who has worked on this the longest – it is the most eco-friendly. Compost was a big piece of this and keeping food scraps out of garbage. Stick with what we have now and increasing PAYT is how this town succeeds. Every Monday I see compost bins out every week where I live.
Liz – the Town Charter – trash is a function of town government in the Charter. The guiding principles in understanding the survey was equity and environmental sustainability. We shouldn’t have a survival of the fittest for garbage. We have a system that was the pre-cursor to the PAYT law. Brattleboro were leaders in adopting PAYT. It is integral to recycling and compost to make the reductions in the waste stream work. Having said all that, I would entertain a delay in the composting system if I knew that this delay would only be until January so we could include a competing system in the FY26 budget. Don’t want to leave the town hanging. If you want to spend more time, I would entertain that though – if by January and this budget year. And, environmental sustainability – people felt strongly about the changes to the sustainability coordinator. We need to understand that composting is the (her phone rings) I’ll talk to my brother later…. key to it all.
Peter – so my question is what does that do to the timeline and what you are proposing. Delaying by 6 weeks wrenches things up?
Dan – yes, by January we want to work on public education and roll it out and get equipment by June. It would be getting tight.
Peter – trying to split the baby – not realistic. Approve the original or amend it.
Potter – to try to reinvent a new approach by January is unreasonable. Don’t think we could do it and I’d feel bad asking them to do that. We could look at FY28 to look for a change that might be helpful.
Lis – so let’s take the win at the current savings and gold ideas for competing until system is underway.
Peter – I wasn’t a big fan of the town taking it over, but I saw the numbers and know how people feel about competing, so I stood behind it.
Amanda – okay – do DIY this year. Part of me is over the moon for this but the other part knows the budget numbers. I propose one year of self hauling. To amend to strike the curbside compost from the initial motion.
1-4 (Amanda in favor) Amendment fails.
Liz – I appreciate your creativity. Back to the first motion.
Isaac – I’d like to offer an amendment…
Liz – If I can read your mind I suggest you hold that until item three? Okay, item 1. The plan…
4-1 (Amanda against)
Oscar – item 2 – the 42 month contract with Casella …
Liz – this is a selectboard responsibility , and serves the community.
4-1 (Amanda against)
Oscar – the increase to PAYT bag fees 4.50 for yellow and 6.75 for purple starting in January 2026.
Isaac – we have heard concerns about affordability, and people are struggling to make ends meet. I’d like to additional pressure on making those… and a few dollars more each week is too much. We have a way so people who can’t afford it won’t have to pay as much. Staff can propose a fair way to do this, but I’d like to amend it to add 10 and 15 cents to respective bags to help fund a program to subsidize those who can’t afford the increase.
Peter – Isaac and I have agreed on this topic.
Liz – we should celebrate that.
Peter – basic needs met with dignity – for a lot of people, trying to keep dignity intact day to day must be difficult. This becomes just one more thing we have to skate around. I’m not sure this mechanism is right. When people will know about this is when they go to buy the bags, no matter how much we message tis. It will be a collision for sure. I agree. I want to create a mechanism to lower the impact – it is such a big increase… I agree with the raising of the bags, but finding a way to help people I am interested in. It seems to make sense to me.
Oscar – this is something we discussed in executive session about trash stuff. I’m not in favor. The contract is already large pile of compromises, over 6 plus months and it is already a big increase in bag prices, but I worry that some sort of benefits clip that seem inevitable and we’ve talk about this number… $47k in Brattleboro pre-tax – you are not having a good time. That’s the median. They won’t qualify for those, and I worry about people on the other side of that line. I’d rather we publish the numbers and propose the changes and give it a year and discuss then.
Peter – as Isaac’s proposal – the additional amount cover the need?
Liz – we don’t know. It’s a shot in the dark.
Isaac – it doesn’t cover the need but covers the demand, We’ll see how much it is used in the first year. IT’s a starting place and gives some flexibility to staff to figure out something by July 1. I could see some limits, and making it easy to administer, but we owe it to the people of our town to take the current economy into consideration. This could make a significant difference for some people.
Liz – I’m of tow minds – I brought it up that there was a family with medical need and medical waste and needed a break on PAYT bags and I din’t bring it to the level of the community at large, and I kind of… there are a lot of varying opinions on this board. Oscar’s plan to wait and see?
Oscar – to give it a year as written..
Liz – is a valid concern, and my two colleagues to the left have valid concerns. I’m of a mind to wait and see to see how the rollout goes. The increase in bag prices is similar to the rise in parking fees. Bag fees haven’t been raised since 2011. I want to understand the rollout and see if this change is truly necessary.
Peter – the more Isaac proposal sits with me. WE’re talking quarter between two different bags. I don’t like nuisance fees
Liz – cat licenses!
Peter – I stand with Isaac on this – asking for a bit more on each bag to help fund people… there will have to be … I’d like to see the board support this and rollout out for a year and if it doesn’t work we can change it. I’d love to see this supported tonight. I will be.
Liz – oaky, I’m changing my mind.
Heidi F – I appreciate the sentiment and the reality that people are struggling, but to think of how it could be implemented and to leave it to town staff, I think of what a huge undertaking that would be for staff to figure out and implement, work out eligibility, work on distribution at outside stores… the layers that unfold to me are enormous for a benefit. Why not think outside the box? Ask people to buy bags to donate to this effort. Simpler.
Peter – I don’t disagree. But that word… dignity – if people have to come here to get their trash bags…
Heidi – maybe stores could keep them…
Peter – we could have EBT cards to do that.
Heidi it is the town taking on more work. Also, you’d need transportation to the dump, but if people paid the dump fees and some would take it to the dump to save money.
Peter – then fair and equitable sorts of things…
Marta G – I want to say as someone who designs systems for everyday users. Certain frictions have issues. Historically dumping is a huge problem. If bags become unaffordable, the unintended user behavior could be dumping. There are point of sale options to do this. If people think this is one more fee, people will leave more in dumpsters, or just dumping. Making I seamless and useable.
Liz – are you for or against the amendment.
Marta – I’m for it. Design it for ease of use so people don’t go outside the system.
Ivan H – I’m in favor because it implements something instead of saying oh maybe we can make something more equitable. Everyone who wants to make it more equitable, and there is more to take care of. Good intentions get worn down. It’s a way to start a pilot program as a way. Having selectboard members do leaf pickup the first time works, but next time when it isn’t o urgent, slowly these things get pulled away. It’s not the perfect plan but it has implantation.
Liz – the proposed competing plan includes leaf pickup.
Nell M – I understand Heidi’s concerns. I’d second what Marta said. Places Like he coop already have great systems for helping low income people. Most check to see if you qualify for SNAP. They could be a great model. Most EBT cards don’t work at Market 32. There could be a collaborative approach and the Coop could share what they know. If you buy purple bags in packs of 5, nine people buy those will buy one subsidized bag. I’m 24 making decent money as a carpenter, but didn’t go to the emergency room cuz I’m from canada and don’t understand it. I’ve been in the position where I have the money and when I don’t. There is a way to implement it and it would make a significant difference.
Tom F – Good evening. Folks in the room can tell you this – I did the quick math – adding the amounts that Isaac suggested would get about $13k for the fund.
Amanda – the motion is creative and well intentioned but it is difficult for me to vote on an amendment that doesn’t have a specific ask at this time. Could we withdraw it and we discuss it at a future meeting – a specific thing to vote on.
Isaac – my concern is that it has been 2 years and would like to move this along and give some direction to town staff. I’m curious if the people who would do the work have concerns.
Pete L – we contract with Waste Zero to work with retailers. Retailers get no profit from this. Not clear how easy ti would be to do variable pricing and if they would police it for zero profit. For moving the decision down the road, it takes 45 days to implement a system. And to implant it we would need to understand it clearly. if you want to clearly mark out prices, it would delay it all until then. I agree with Tom Franks – net would be about $12k… we pay a percentage toward the bags. For town staff talking care of this process, Dan and I have taken care of this. We even looked at vending machines for cheaper bags. Happy to hear other great thoughts. We’d need to understand the impact if we did it within the walls of town buildings.
Peter C – – we’re getting into the minutiae – as a retailer, when we have programs for us to help our customers purchase things, it is about 15 keystrokes and we’re done. We’re not selling bags, but …it just gets wrung in differently. I like that there is a mechanism in place to do this and would like to support it.
Liz – we are an hour over our agenda.
Oscar – my biggest reason – it is a big new program with new implementation – we don’t know how the revenue will work out, or how people will react to the new prices, so all my instincts say keep it simple. I won’t be sad if this passes, but I’d like to keep it simple.\
Peter C – what’s adding 15 cents.
Amanda – Bob, help us compost as much as we can – education from the WSWMD.
Liz – vote on Isaac’s motion… 10 cents on yellow bags and 15 cents on purple bags.
4-1 – (Oscar against)
Potter – that counts as vote if you want…
Attny Fischer – vote again – that was just the amendment vote.
On part 3, with the amendment…
4-1 (Oscar against)
Liz – a five minute break – we’re an hour over now…
Fireworks Contract – Approve Contract
Liz – Carol Locate is sitting in her place. The next item is to approve the fireworks contract.
Carol Locate – I’m here to seek endorsement for a 20K contract for fireworks with Northstar in Montpelier – they’ve done it for 30 years. Expense are going up and fireworks are one of them . We need to sign a contract for next year’s fireworks. Being 20k, over the 10k threshed the town has, I’m here to answer questions and why we won’t go out for bid and our desire to stay with the company we work with. Fireworks have been going up – the cost of issuance and most fireworks come from China, and that’s been hit by tariffs – now 35% last year. A minimum show is $20k. The money comes from Brattleboro Goes Fourth donations. Everyone helps fund the next year at the event. $7-800 an hour on the 4th. I’d like to secure our spot with Northstar. I’ve checked with a dozen others – they aren’t available, or cost more, or recommend Northstar. (reads list of those others) The importance of staying with this company – everyone here knows the company and they are comfortable working with us. It’s about safety – you have to be comfortable with the people shooting off the fireworks.
Peter C – reads motion… I’m one of those guys that fireworks are… okay, but I understand I’m in the minority and this is a nice community building event. I’ve been there and see the work… it genuinely makes people happy. I support it.
Isaac – I’d love to see a reduced cost but don’t want to spend much time on this. Thanks for checking around.
Amanda – I feel like a Debbie Downer. I don’t want to spend the money. I’d prefer to celebrate without fireworks and save the money. In the spirit of saving as much as possible – other communities are having this conversation and there are other ways to celebrate this without lighting rockets on fire.
Liz – I believe in this program – family-friendly event. Brattleboro Goes Fourth – we have benefitted from the O’Connor family and others for many years. With Carol’s help we can do more to ask for volunteers and generosity. Here’s a way to help defray cost. maybe tariffs will be deemed illegal and we’ll get some money back. I support this.
Fric – I’m a fan of fireworks. I get to enjoy two – this happens on the 4th and Greenfield does it on a Saturday. I have assumed that they because they do a different day they get a better rate? That might be a compromise?
Carol – I asked and pretty much – two weeks either side you pay the big price.
Liz – this isn’t the 4th of July to make the change.
Carol – this is one event everyone can enjoy – the parade fr free, LMP for free, fireworks for free. Everyone can participate.
Liz – just look up.
? – you are trying to move things along, and I met years ago about the impact of fireworks on wildlife and pets – paying for something detrimental to dogs, cats, horses, possums, veterans, … fireworks is really unpleasant and damaging tradition that communities are phasing out. In a budget iris year – this is a great way. There are other ways to celebrate – this is a great year to try to celebrate in a way more accessible for more people. I’d rather not hide in basement with my dog so she doesn’t get sick from thunder for the next six months.
Isaac – I’d like to hear alternatives next year
Eric- Isaac I don’t understand … you proposed something without a plan, but for this we need a plan? Why the difference? I don’t respect that thinking, Isaac.
Liz – address the chair
Eric – it is about the pressure we put on town to solve our issues – before we could ask them to come up with a plan, but now we can’t? It’s two different approaches.
Isaac – I can see how it looks like that. For trash – we’ve looked at lots of details in executive session. This is the first time I’ve heard the idea of cancelling fireworks and it sounds really different. I am interested in hearing alternatives.
Eric – can I reply?
Liz – no.
Amanda – is it necessary to approve it tonight?
Carol – it was due Nov 1 and I asked for an extension.
Amanda – there are laser shows we could revisit for the future.
Carol – I received a letter asking to look into noiseless fireworks, including lasers and drones $40k for a ten minute show. Drone shows are really expensive.
Amanda – high fire risk areas are doing lasers…
Carol – drones are expensive.
approved – 4-1 (Amanda no)
Public Safety Update – Trespass Claims
Potter – at a previous meeting we were asked about trespass orders by Isaac, so we looked into it and were not able to respond to specifics… I invited the police chief to come and discuss, plus the town attorney and assistant town attorney to answer legal questions.
Isaac – At our last meeting I encouraged people to come to the budget listening session and I said I’d been having conversations with people about no trespass concerns… (Reads his quote) so I was asked by someone to ask for clarification. I didn’t make any allegations… that’s something the Town manager said. I was asking for clarification of what …
Potter – we took it…
Police Chief Hardy – we took this as allegations. I wasn’t able to look into them or do any investigation. No mention of the police chief. Just that you had been told. The Town Attorney can tell you what the laws are. The statements were misleading and make members of the community think we abuse our authority. It should be on the agenda so we can answer these allegations. AS many times as I’ve had to come here to defend myself and my department – that’s part of my job. I’d expect dome pushabck. When we have a sitting member of town government make these statements – I was on vacation and got calls – they destroy our moral. I thank you for time to address these statements. We’ll address people being trespassed from public places, for being warm, for keeping friends company, and the time and effort we’ve taken to build a department to not do these types of things to people. No one trespasses people for occupying a public space. We show utmost empathy. When someone is trespassed they have been told many times. I spend many hours downtown. It is usually because they are doing something illegal in a public space – for drug use or paraphernalia , for people told to move along – I’ve had an officer punched in the face – because of their mental illness? and we get statements about us abusing our authority it affects us. The amount of trespasses we do in public spaces is low compared to the amount we do in town. We’ll be showing what we do with our budget presentation. We do not take personal property – we just do security as others clean up. We go out with people from the other partners like Ground works and others – if we were taking personal property someone would have said something. WE never simply trespass someone on private property. We have pictures…
Evans – I’m speaking as a resident and as an employee. Recent a child was struck by a syringe in Burlington. Needles were not uncommon. Everyone in town have removed 1500 syringes during weekly cleanups. Foot patrols have ..
Liz – I thought this was focused on trespassing…
Isaac – I had questions for the town attorney …
Hardy – this is about trespassing…
Captain – locations where syringes have been found … (all over town) in the name of compassion, public works store property at their facilities. I’m showing you pictures of syringes downtown… next to gazebo, in the parking garage, plaza park, Elm Street parking, Main Street, and we have places for children and youth and seniors downtown. The issue is serious. We heard that people were outraged over a sign….
Isaac – how does this have to do with the item?
Hardy – we have been accused… there has been accusatory language… they’ve been trespassed because this is what they are doing. The person said they were checking on their friend? We don’t do that.
Isaac – I have a number of concerns…
Oscar – hold on. This is a topic with a lot of history for the community and department and it is polarizing and people are quick to perceive offense in all directions, we need to be able to talk about it at community meetings. I’d ask if everyone could lower the temperature a bit. I can see how this comes across as an attack… I can imagine that it is hurtful and demoralizing. Even so, we need to preserve the basics of the conversation. I do not perceive what’s in the men as an attack requiring a full defense of the police department. It isn’t necessary – large majority of the community has positive feelings about the police – if we could focus on the narrow concerns about when you trespass someone… and it sounds like you don’t do what is said in the memo and maybe we discuss that…
Evans – I was going to end on a positive note – I’m a resident and I have kids that go to schools here. It’s my chance to give my opinion – despite all the challenges , our approach is working. It’s having a positive impact on safety.
Liz – Chief Hardy, can we hear more about when you trespass people.. when people say that, a no trespassing order has been placed, it is a civil issue, and you have been asked by many to come and trespass people.
Chief Hardy – that is important – it isn’t just us going and doing this… the majority are calls from citizens – 609 trespass orders, and 45 on public property. We use it as a tool. It can be indefinite. We came up with a 30 day no trespass, to give people a chance to redeem themselves. We can’t no trespass them from everywhere in town. Of the 45, only 23 are active. The others have expired.
Liz – very interesting.
Oscar – I think it is an appropriate role for the selectboard to elevate public comments for discussion.
Isaac – I have raised these concerns and put them in writing, and I appreciate your work. You likely saved the life of a friend last week, so thank you for what you are doing, and we have a wicked problem of addiction that will take a lot of work from a lot of people. The question was about the town’s authority to issue no trespass orders – are all of them written down dan they are provided to people when they trespass?
Evans – yes, but we don’t have to give them paper if they are disruptive. It can be verbal. If they refuse the order they can be arrested. Generally they get a multiple page form. The vast majority get the written.
Isaac – does the 609 include verbals orders?
Hardy – yes . Mostly private citizens. Only 45 in public places. and 22 are still active.
Isaac – and the criteria for verbal vs written?
Hardy – we try to just give people a chance to just leave – less paperwork. You have been asked to leave many times before you get a written document. It’s up to the person. Most just leave.
Liz – is there criteria and does it differ for private and public spaces?
Hardy – once an owner calls us, we do it. Property owners have had many issues with some people and they’ve given us letters to tell us we can trespass people for them. there are Business owners who come here in the morning and people won’t leave their doorway or parking lot. As for public property – there are certain aspects we won’t do it, but if they repeat the behavior we might. WE look at the records and the body cams and witness reports. That’s our criteria – to give everyone a chance to go… some we deal with daily. We also offer them services.
Oscar – is there a good way to know where you can’t trespass…
Hardy – we’ll share the info. Some people have massive numbers. WE don’t refuse the tell them
Oscar – if my caping site was cleaned up… my tent cleaned up… what happens?
Hardy – we don’t destroy public property – DPW holds it for 2 weeks and we’ll help them get to DPW to get it.
Oscar – so if someone asked me I could go and help them there? (yes)
Isaac – I’m curious if the public has questions.
Liz – Seth – the signup list…
Isaac – if there are questions or concerns about how this works, let’s stay focused on that.
Liz – we are two hours over
Oscar – we are going for the record (cg – have to beat 1 am)
Liz – going by the list…
Lisa from 69A – I appreciate EMT and officers and fire – many in my family. I do appreciate it and somedays it might not see like it. I hear stories every day of people coming – my stuff was taken. We constantly look for where it is located. calls after calls. WE’ve been told many different answers. The Retreat was one. DPW was one. They don’t keep it at all. The Police has it? There are many different answers from the same organizations – it would be help together rid of that miscommunications. I know people with 47 no trespasses and they don’t know where it is. Many crumble them up… I spoke with 298 people today if they got verbal or written, and they were all verbal. I have asked over weeks and months – someone gets no trespassed for sleeping on a bench, but I do… it seems like thousands of stories from a group of individuals. many will think they are lying. Having conversations with people you know don’t do dope or needles..
Liz – time!
Lisa – it is an extremely important topic
Liz – Time..
Lisa – could you come to 69A some day?
Amanda – Seth – could you turn off the screen
Bob – I practiced psychotherapy in the community in the community and was very appreciative of the day I called for them the day I felt unsafe. I want to be sure, especially you Chief, understandably defensive but the tone has changed. We have a drug problem in Brattleboro. Questions – police officers do they have body cams on when walking up, or only when a crime is suspected ? Like others, I wonder if the 23 trespasses on record are just those documented, and some things we are hearing are liberally applied practices? The ways we do what we do? Maybe look at some of those habits we professional all come up with. With regards to public property, fundamentally, by what authority is that happening in Brattleboro? Lastly, is there and validity to the many reports that police officers are slashing tents in inclement weather…
Liz – time is up..
Bob … I’m involved with people having clean blankets that aren’t rotting.
Liz – we’ve heard contradictory things
Hardy – we do talk to people before we trespass things…
Police – when we have anything beyond a Casula conversation we activate body cams.
Hardy – the authority for public property? When we were having issues downtown, parking lots near NEYT – we put up clear signs on certain behaviors that you shouldn’t be doing. Not because the occupy public space – we know that, but if you are disorderly or committing a crime…
Atty Hannah C – a no trespass is a prerequisite to charging with criminal trespass. It is not a crime or a civil citation. It is issued on behalf of a property owner… can I please finish? … there is a slight question of the authority to trespass someone without the specific consent of the selectboard. Some towns have done that. Other locations, like the library – they have their own procedures, and the transportation has signs. It has to come from the person in control of the property .
Liz – wouldn’t that be delegated to the police department?
Atty Bob F – yes – there are notices as to behavior that isn’t accepted. If they are breaking the law – those are abilities for issuing the no trespass order. If they violate it, then they may face a criminal no trespass.
Liz – do you slash tents?
Hardy – we do not, we rarely touch tents. I have watched the fire department clear people[le with help from Ground works. Tents are held for 2 weeks at DPW. No reason for us to slash tents. It is happening by my department.
Liz – we are way over time, so I’m going to ask that we move on… to discuss the other matters. The police department.
Police Department FY27 GF Budget
Potter – first the police budget fy27…
Hardy – we were doing the public safety update – our budget is very short because we are only going into things to be changed, but we have the public safety update on the agenda…
Oscar – the public safety update was what we did… I think we could just talk about the budget as written.
Liz – the thing is the budget at this point is preliminary – union negotiations we can’t talk about, and it is very important we hear an update of the conditions with which the downtown safety action plan and number of calls… all is very important so the public understands the buddy is what it is.
Brief recess to 9:30…
back to the police budget
Liz – here is the plan – we have two items. Let’s give each a half an hour.
Hardy – we had a presentation that we wanted to present what the public’s money goes to pay. I’ll just say we have the resource assistance team that is very successful. One slide is the one showing the number of calls and what they are. 24% increase in total incidents, deaths down 52%, assaults up 13%, sexual offenses up 68% rated person up 15%…. Justin has done 160 overdose followups – for every call we get he tells them about services and treatment. He’s done 79 transport treatments. We’ve done community outreach – coffee with a cop, cookies with a cop, community nights. Things we do beyond just being the police department. Very proud of the department.
Liz – if people wish to speak, please sign up.
Evans – we are currently at our capacity – 30 sworn officers , one graduating next week, and three slotted for the February policy academy. It has been a tremendous struggle for us… we had 14 people when Hardy started. I look back and don’t know how we did it for 11 months. We’ve come through that with her leadership and the Town manager, HR department… it refocused our department and created a path t hire and retain staff with the same values and principles. It’s been a haul and it is exciting to be where we are at. 7 current dispatch and hiring more. Bratt unit has 3 of 4 people. Plus admin staff and HCRS staff. For the budget, here are the significant changes for FY26…. overtime is the big one – a significant part of our budget. Usually it is shift coverage – we have mandatory minimums at different times of the day. There are hold overs and call ins. We aren’t always going home when a shift ends – we stick around until our casework is done for the day. It can take several hours. We sometime call in extra staff for big emergencies. There is training, big public events like protests, court proceedings, outside overtime reimbursed by contractors like roadwork. Traffic court is almost all on the phone now. We did 939 hours of overtime, plus 595 hours of outside OT. About a third. It’s about 1.6 hours per week per employee – not sure we can cut it down much. We do talk about it, to make sure we keep it to a minimum. For equipment – we want a bit more for the substation. WE’d like more for training, since we have more people to train and it costs more. Conferences and memberships are going up – rising costs and more training required. Memberships help us get free policies and cheaper trainings sometimes. office supplies are up due to additional staff. Transportation has dropped by half by changing how we get people to trainings. Building repairs is up due to substation. maintenance is up due to the substation. Poundkeeper ACO – animal control – up due to WCHS contract costs and equipment needs. Office furniture is in this year again. Prisoner expense – 3 holding cells need prisoner care.
Hardy – that includes mattresses if they destroy them, clothing, sometime meals.
Evans – cell phone – a new line item for easier tracking mobile devices. For capital FY27 – we’d like 3 police cars plus uplifting , and security camera system refresh (cameras and servers are beginning to fail) at our building. Cell block area, the evidence area… some are extremely necessary.
Liz – thank you… a list of speakers?
Amanda – board comments first?
Liz – quickly.
Amanda – thanks – can we get a copy of the presentation available online at the town website – (yes). About staffing – is dispatch on the list that you had (yes) so that is admin? (no) Ah, in the middle section. For police outside revenue is people hiring you? (yes) Are there areas we could collect more revenue?
Hardy – we were just giving freedom of information act info away – now we charge for that. You don’t want to have quotes for revenue – we like to keep it separate. FOIA request, VIN checks for people out of state.. we’re charging a standard rate. Always look for ways to generate that.
Amanda – all under outside revenue? (no)
Evans – Misc revenue is where the VIN comes in. Copy charges is where you would see reports requested. And town ordinance is where you see the state sending back a percentage of tickets with municipal portions to it.
Oscar – it doesn’t look like a long list of speakers – but they all should get to speak. Generally – the overtime number – you feel alright about that? (yes) John, can you remind me of the union negotiations go on, we can improve our estimates?
Potter – yes – we have to have something by the end of January.
Oscar – has the Brat team – have they been fully filled yet?
Hardy – yes, currently.
Oscar – including Justin?
Hardy – we don’t count Justin – we have one position open right now.
Oscar – have we been fully staffed (yes). Has HCRS go solo to welfare checks? (no)
Hardy – not if they choose – if they feel safe and confident. Initially, we respond. Once we see they are safe they can ask us to leave or standby outside. It is helpful but don’t condone it all the time for them to go alone.
Isaac – thanks for the overtime breakdown. Question about the capital budget – I didn’t see numbers – do you have numbers for the 3 vehicles?
Potter – 3 vehicles 260k; camera equipment is $50k.
Evans – that includes vehicle uplifts, and we might be able to save a bit – it is worst case scenario.
Isaac – any savings would go?
Potter – in the capital fund to cover other costs.
Peter C – thanks for what you do and I’m good with what’s presented.
Liz – I appreciate the presentation. I’v been here when we were down to 14 officers and it wasn’t pretty and you’ve done a tremendous job at staffing and the service you provide.. I applaud you. The list!
Elizabeth B – W&WHT – I’m in favor of their budget as presented. Asa rental provider, I’m aware of the value the department brings to the 500 residents in our properties. Yesterday we had a meeting on Flat Street. WE’ve been implementing restorative practices. We invited the police – several came and it was wonderful conversation, very relaxed, and I learned that resident stared a game night and one member of the Bratt team is attending to build trust and visibility. Residents are feeling that support and feeling the difference with what’s happening to the police department – we talked of challenging dynamics. It was great. Police can help with de-escalation. Residents appreciated it. Shout out to Chief Hardy – she came with passion for community policing, and she implements it by building the capacity to do forward thinking work and collaborating with residents.
George – thanks, from HCRS. I do support the budget. I don’t have a story, but the partnerships and collaborations. I’m a member of One Brattleboro. Police are a part of it. We also have the situation table for social service agencies to come together and support the people we serve. The leadership of the police is why it is succeeding. Our situation table is the best in the state because of the leadership of the police department. Not just what they do but how they do it. Staff everyday tell me the relationships, connections and caring … it is something we should really be proud of. There is one situation… that is a really new wonderful way to support the people we serve. I hear that over and over again. Police social workers are fortunate to be part of the team. I want to thank the PD for their work and I’m in support of their budget.
Kate H. – a retired superior court judge – I’m also on One Brattleboro since the beginning. Jim Baker gets a lot of credit for the progress, but the department is truly a model statewide. I woke around the state about how we could do better with mental health and judicial systems. What we are doing here is a truly amazing model. The Chief gets a lot of credit for creating the tea,. I’ve gone to situation Table a few times now. makes me feel good about the community -30 to 40 people working with these folks, with real understand of their needs and what could happen to make this lives better. We have to keep doing what we are doing. It is making a big difference. So much better as we are better staffed. Officers should feel the support of the whole community now.
Kate T. – Representing DBA – also in support of the police and budget. I meet with downtown business owners regularly – we’ve had a rocky road, and business owners are at the front lines with dealing with heh public and customers with questions. For them, knowing they have the Brat team, officer Washburn… they are available and walk around. They feel confident that if they call dispatch they know where to go. They can tell customers that we have support downtown. Tangible progress is happening here. The more we support these efforts the better things will be.
Ivan H – question – after all the pictures of needles – you can get NARCAN in town for free. Training is super quick and easy. Easy to learn to apply it safely, and there is legal protection – a great way to save a life. Great that needles are picked up – it is easy to do if you take precautions. To the budget – the staffing situation has been turned around completely – what changed to accomplish that?
Potter – three years ago we renegotiated the contract and we made wages competitive with surrounding communities, and that helped… but the leadership and culture transformation has made it a desirable place to serve. Brattleborois a place you can learn to be a top notch police officer. You can’t say that in every part of the state or region.
Kate O – a citizen – a budget structural question. For all apartments – in the police and fire department budgets, it is a decrease under salaries for department heads and general salaries… we know that salaries haven’t decreased. Is there a plan so we can compare apples to apples? Actual salary increases/ I know incentives has been mixed in, but as taxpayers and selectboard members we should know what exact increases are? Is there a plan? Personnel is 67% of the town budget. We need to understand how this all flows.
Liz – it is interesting because when the finance director was the auditor, she wanted things done a certain way. Now she’s making it her way and that’s the problem with comparing apples to apples. It might be difficult.
Potter – I understand the concern and question – it would be very difficult to break things out correctly like that but we could take lines from the fy27 budget to better line them up with past budgets – it is a fair amount of work but we can do that. Part of the reason some salary lines have gone down, the model in Open Government- we used to broadly estimate salaries – now we can do it each individual person so we aren’t overestimating.
Liz – thanks for your service. Alright – fire department…
Fire Department FY27 GF Budget
It is 10:24 pm
Jay Symonds, Chuck Kier
Jay – to value everyone’s time and what we have to say, I’ll breeze through the smaller changes and spend more time on the bigger changes. The question has been asked about moving lines across. It looks like a 54% increase… it is not actual. They moved things from vernal services to us. It’s actually just 10%, plus an increase in revenue. Revenue – towers, banner fees up, rental housing the same, outside revenue 10k, EMS reimbursement at 1.6 million., subject to federal changes in Medicare/Medicaid. Staff salaries – we want to add two staff positions so we can go from a three platoon model to a four platoon model. It is so valuable to the administration. WE’d like a Chief for EMS, but not this year. We want to do four shifts. It affects the health and safety – it increases recovery time and is within best practices. Improved decision making. Fewer strokes and heart attacks. Better service results. More competitive with other departments. Help us to recruit new employees. Shows commitment to safety. Overtime – we’ve adjusted this number to $325k. We have additional staff costs. We need new portable radios, new narcotic safes, and replace rescue equipment. We’ve reduced training costs. Conferences and memberships is up. Software licenses a new line item. Equipment maintenance – substantial increase to $55k. Electric use up a bit. Building repairs up a bit – service contracts cost more. We aren’t including the elevator repair of $22k. Medical supplies up, due to increased call volume. Clothing we adjusted down. Moved turnout gear to another line item away from clothing. medical oversight up to $43k – our medical director costs, and physicals cost us $27k. vehicle maintenance continues to climb. We owe the state a provider tax – 3.3% of the EMS helps to fund state costs. Stipends are a new line at $30k. The fire alarm super will be moved to a new position, and we’ll replace it with a committee. Stipends will pay for fire alarm work. Sick leave bonus – if you don’t use sick leave. Holiday bonus is $94k paid in December. We want one small car at $60k for Ems response. WE want to have $40k for Engine 1 replacement in FY41, engine 2 in the 30’s, and engine 3 in FY28 – the selctboard has already voted to replace this vehicle but there isn’t enough money yet for it. WE can replace it if this budget is approved. Engine 4 in FY32. Ladder 1 due in FY39 at 55k a year. Ambulances due in FY32 – 55k each for each year toward that. $50k for turnout gear to meet VT laws.
Liz – does the law come with funding?
Jay – no. An unfunded mandate. I’m sure there will be grants. States are getting on board with it. We’ll look for it. AEDS – we want to buy 12 AEDS – we have FD vehicles without them in them. We want AEDs in all vehicles. Looking for grants. Capital projects – the elevator needs to be fixed, the roof, bay doors, HVAC, windows… so that’s what our budget looks like. We spent a lot of time and effort assessing the needs of the community. Needs continue to evolve and we have to evolve with that need.
Liz – thanks – quickly – selectboard questions?
Amanda – thanks for the presentation – a lot of material to chew over.
Oscar – you covered a lot of it. Thanks. My question is EMS reimbursement – FY25 actuals, and take out the seed funding, we’re on pace for $1.35, and have 1.6 in there for revenue now… why expecting it to go up?
Jay – Bonnie gave us much of it. We are relying on her knowledge. medicare and the government shutdown led to a delay in payments. So some of that is for the decrease. We’ll keep track and see where it goes. That’s the projection.
Peter Case – thanks for the presentation and what we do. It made sense to me.
Isaac – likewise – thanks for the breakdowns. The anticipated overtime – from $150k to $300k – can you share how.. is that with the fourth platoon?
Jay yes, actually, no, no it is not. Paramedic time would go down. I can’t do an accurate estimate of vacation time until the contract is finalized. This is based on how we operate now.
Isaac – 79k salary increase… is that… new positions?
Jay – two new positions – just the staff salary. I don’t have how it impacts retirement, health insurance – that’s not part of it.
Liz – thanks for your service. I have 10 people who want to speak. To get out by 11, stick to 2 minutes.
Chris D – professional firefighters of Vermont – the 42 hour work week. In the northeast it is a common schedule. Historically firefighters were always on duty, to 56 hours, to 42 hour work weeks. No one works more than 42 hours a week . There are more pros than cons to the 42. The pros – improved work life balance. Time to recover, better sleeping, health benefits, better behavior… and departments have increased job satisfaction and less turnover. And in this state, people are moving to 42.
Jamal C – formerly union president – I can only speak for fellow firefighters – I left for a 42 hour week. I commute 3 hours but still spend more time with my family – 30 more days with your family. And for recruitment and retention… wages that are competitive, and then the next step would be to make the schedule competitive. You will lose firefighters with a 56 hour week. People have dedicated themselves to this town. The amount they have spent getting through transitions… they should be rewarded with this 42 hour week.
Alex – I was a firefighter her until 2024 – came back from Maine to support the 42 hour week. It increase our work life business. The schedule was causing me to leave the town and state to find a better work schedule and better retirement and more money. With increased calls, firefighters are constantly fatigued. This can lead to conditions that will compound over their career. Studies show fatigue cause impairment . You can be one of the first to ave a four platoon schedule. This will lead to better service and better work life balance for all employees.
Kevin L – I want to highlight Jamal and Alex – both really went out of their way to come here, and these are people we’ve lost. A community member asked me to read – (reads letter ) A clinical social worker helping community with substance abuse issues. I appreciate collaboration with BFD. Their mental health has is impacted by the work they do and the shifts they work. It is not sustainable, nor is it a good recruitment tool. I share my support for a fourth shift at BFD.
Joshua J – former Brattleboro employees – left 3 years ago after 18 years. Another letter by someone who left for a shorter work week and better work life balance. He points out the positives of working the 42 hour week. Increased fatigue left him… 42 hour week helps with recovery and reduces burnout. This person had a family member with health issues and it was hard to vibe supportive. A 56 hour week – it’s not a great period of recovery between shifts. Mandatory overtime is quite common new- you work 24 hours and you aren;t allowed to leave and have to stay for another 24 hours. You want to meet base c needs with dignity – firefighters need that as well.
Andrew H – town employee – another letter from a former employee – showing support for the 4th platoon. I saw 2 dozen popes leave in a short period. Many reasons, but not everyone left for a different career – just moved to work 42 hours a week, so the body and mind can recover. The 56 hour week cannot continue – leads to stress and burnout. Doesn’t promote longevity – everyone at BFD takes it seriously. The board should take of the people who take care of the town – a 4th platoon for continued excellent service.
Jared V. – I’m a firefighter and vp of the union. I want to reiterate what everyone said -we are expensive, but the services and sacrifices – we’ve all been tired. It’s not good sleep. In ending, we talk of budgets… we see how many have left – training takes time for kids to learn to drive fire trucks.
David L – I have a number of questions – just on the record – a fair number of comments about staffing, but the board and public hasn’t had a presentation of the current staffing model vs the planned one, and the costs of the change. 2. Overtime is still an issue even with additional staff – not solving the problem with overtime. 4> Medical oversize is tripling in costs this year. EMS revenue may depend on medicare and Medicaid reimbursement rates – they could go down or up – might they get worse? You have new billing initiatives but they may need ordinance changes… (no – in Chapter 20). Engine 3 – have you had a recent quote on replacing it. Can our reserve fund meet the rising costs? Are you monitoring ambulance price changes? Those need to be watched.
Heidi F – I appreciate how the 42 hour week would make a difference – that includes sleep time, right? (yes) If we go to 42 hours, why is overtime more than doubling? Not acceptable to me. With medical oversight -why such a big jump? When are contracts going to be done with union negotiations?
Liz – best to answer the union question.
Potter – our hope is asap. WE meet regularly with the unions. I’d love to have it done by the end of the year but we’ll see. Typically we do three year contracts.
Oscar – can we follow up later with the other questions? (yeah)
Kate O – I appreciate both departments. I’d urge you to pay close attention to increase in EMS revenues – get Bonnie in here. 1.6 million – the way Bonnie does it – that’s based on what is billed… to get $1.6 million you have to bill 4.2 million. In FY26 we think we’ll bill $3.5 million. In FY27 we’ll bill for 6.2 million? That would 430 extra EMS trip… we cannot screw this up. if we are wring it will screw up the whole budget. Have Bonnie come and explain he whole thing.
Hank – I have lots of contact with the FD and I’d urge everyone to support these things. Some tings we have going on in Brattleboro – we have a responsible to protect them and populations into Brattleboro drawn here by our programs. We have no treatment, no sober living, one homeless center that has whatever. When they want more money we should pay attention. they are the last line for a huge population for people who get no medical treatment anywhere. they are overworked and underfunded. We should have a very strong insurance policy in our first responders.
Jay – sleeping at the fire station – firefighters are allowed rest time – it might start at any time of day – no one is sleeping for 6 hours. Are they allowed to sleep, yes. But don’t misunderstand what sleeping there looks like.
Peter Case – I want to point out what I’ve seen here tonight – when we talk of overtime – for every instance put out tonight – the support is what we owe you, not what you owe us. That’s where I’m coming from. Thanks for showing up.
Liz – thanks for coming and staying up late.
adjourned.
11:16 pm.