The Brattleboro Selectboard held their first regular meeting in over a month. Top issue was Groundworks, who came to give an overview of recent stats and projects. People seemed most interested in a new project to build 40 beds near Morningside, and safety issues.
The other big discussion was about possible changes to the Charter. The results of the 2.5 years of Charter Revision Commission meetings were somewhat enhanced and overshadowed by members of the public being confused, asking to slow down, wanting consideration of other options such as certified petitions, potential petitions, special and regular meetings, informational meetings, educational programs, and legal issues.
The board made the firm decision to wait until their next regular meeting, not the listening session, to decide whether to discuss putting it on an agenda at a meeting in October to consider holding a special election on November.
Preliminaries
They start late. (Note: There is a need to adjust executive sessions to start earlier since this happens all the time….)
Chair Elizabeth McLoughlin – we’ve been off for a month and it is exciting to see you here. Time to begin the falls Eason and budget season. There is a listen session on Thursday and people can speak for 5 minutes, only once. Come prepared.
Town Manager John Potter – need to sing the praises of the DPW crews, working all over town. The work can be annoying but it will be better when it is down. State continues to work overnight on roads and during days on sidewalks. canal Street topcoat is in place and final markings are being done. Other places will get topcoat in next couple of weeks. High and Western Ave will be the last ones. Mid-October for topcoat. New traffic signal timings are being worked on for Main Street with Vtrans. DPW also working on Williams Str Retaining wall, to be done before end of the year. Changes to traffic there until the work is done. Thanks to residents for patience. Melchen Road had a washout two years ago and is getting repaired with funds from FEMA. DPW also replaced sewer line (over 1000′), improvements to lighting, Co-op walking path, transportation center, and tons of litter removal. A great season of work. A shout out to town employees for reaching milestones of 5, 10, 15, 35, and 40 years of service.
Oscar Heller – we are continuing to look for the right solution to the bridge problem. Work is ongoing. Contact me if interested.
Isaac Evans-Frantz – thanks for coming and watching. I want to appreciate the town staff for the Retreat on August 4th, for a few hours at the fire station. Thanks to the town manager and Sue Fillion. WE have 5 draft priorities. We’ll go over them or naming them? I appreciate that opportunity. A request from the finance committee to come with their questions, and they will be at the next (regular) meeting on the 24th. I’ve been asked to speak to the removal of encampments from the woods. I want to thank the first reposers for the health and safety, and to minimize harm. The camps can be a public health risk, but are a response to a situation our town didn’t create. We need to expand shelter capacity and find places for people to camp if they don’t have a roof over their head. I’ve been asked by public to provide bathrooms at campsites, focus on individuals, have clear guidelines for removal, care for people’s belongings, and sharing plans for planned removals. I discussed this with the town manager and look forward to learning more about the process. The issue can be polarizing – talk and learn more, with more discussion we can come up with solutions, for the unhoused and neighbors of the encampments.
Amanda Ellis-Thurber – Brattleboro School endowment mum sales benefit at our farm on Sept 20. Buy a mum, support the youth.
Peter Case – Black Mtn Assisted Family Living has a fundraiser at Royal diner – a BBQ and I’m a cook – ribs, pulled pork. Come by.
Public –
Millicent C – the petition to place open town meeting on the ballot has been certified. Thanks to everyone who helped.
Dick Degray – thanks for the postcards. Thanks for showing up for the bridge showing. A poor showing for the town for such an iconic bridge. Can you give us an update on the BRAT team at a future meeting. Maybe people could talk about plusses and minuses. The time, money, and people is it taking to keep the downtown area clean of trash and needles on a weekly basis. It is impacting our taxes. How many OD deaths this year? How much NARCAN, How much time by EMS on drug issues. It is important to give a report on what is going on. I’d like you to discuss your priorities outside of consent agenda. You have 12 items on there tonight. I don’t think it is a good way to do business. Not overly transparent. I ask you to do that. The Town needs to know what’s going on with everything about homeless and drug problems.
Kate T – thanks to the DPW for leadership with lunch in lot program. It was a fun way to look a a space and reimagine it. Thanks for coming out and we’ll see what the future brings.
Ivan H – I see out and about request that people participate in various committees. The Town could do a lot to funnel people into those committees and do a lot to make the downtown itself more attractive by taking advantage of goodwill and energy with a lower barrier to entry. I have participated in elections run but the town clerk. People can come together and be organized and are willing to act if they don’t have to take on the executive aspects. If someone provides the structure, it is easy to get people to help. The town should have a full time paid coordinator of the general public to do all sorts of stuff. And make it easy to see how easy it is to participate in town government. I do have reservations about producing a volunteer workforce – epoeple should be paid for work – but the town is looking for ways to cut every budget except the police department. maybe we could leverage one paid position to get an immense amount of labor out of it.
Randy B – update on solid waste?
Potter – we are still negotiating with the one contractor that put in a proposal and hope to find some additional savings before we finalize a contract there.
Ken F – I want to say that on the recommendation from Bob O I stopped by 69 A on Elliot St and it was a great experience. I saw the help they were doing. I’ve been there a couple of times, and donated things to there. I’ve seen my donation get put to good use. I want to thank them for what they are doing.
Consent Agenda
Potter – there are 12 items tonight :
A. Halo Hollow Annual Entertainment License – Approve
B. Tavernier Chocolates Annual Entertainment License – Approve
C. Downtown Improvement District Vote Results — Accept
D. FY26 Municipal Roads Grant-in-Aid – Accept and Appropriate $50,000 Grant
E. Brattleboro Co-op Lease — Ratify
F. Selectboard 2025-27 Priorities — Approve
G. CDBG-DR Grant Application for Dettman Bridge – Approve
H. Downtown Vibrancy Fund Award for the DBA – Accept and Appropriate
I. Police Department Cruiser – Authorize $55,987 Purchase
J. Tri-Park Community Development Block Grant -Approve Municipal Policies and Codes
K. Opioid Settlement Participation Form – Authorize Signature
L. Brooks Memorial Library Multiple Year Printer Lease – Authorize $1,247 Contract
Oscar – I’d like to pull the priorities discussion.
Liz – okay – that will now be the last item.
otherwise consented!
Announce Committee Vacancies
Potter – so, there is no real motion required but as was mentioned, there are a number of committee vacancies and a number of people interested. We’ve had some applications. ADA Advisory, Arts Committee, Conservation Commission, Design Review Committee Alternate. DRB alternates, Energy Committee, Fence Viewer, Withington Fund Advisory committee. Contact us if interested.
Groundworks Collaborative Update
Liz – let me welcome the Groundworks staff and board – Libby Bennett and Peter Elwell. This is for information. You have a presentation?
Libby – Seth has our slides. I want to start by thanking the Town of Brattleboro for all the investments. So many things that we are doing right. Collaboration is prioritized. We have strong relationships with fire, EMS, police, HCRS, social workers, the situation table, BRAT Unit, Project CARE. One Brattleboro. Brooks Memorial Library helps us. We put human services funding to good use. We provide truly life saving services to members of the community, many who lack the resources to compete for housing. We face same challenges other communities do – we lack housing, our housing market has low vacancy, and an affordability crisis. A modest two bedroom requires $30/hr. Housing shortages are the problem. Our data shows the human impact. 323 are currently experiencing homelessness, that have registered. 53 are unsheltered. It is a housing supply problem in every community in America. We have a vision of a healthy community and a re-energized Brattleboro community. We take our vision seriously. We see the strength of the community and can make progress. The team is tenacious and has a complex understanding. A firm commitment to increasing safety. We set solid expectations and hold firm boundaries. We believe in restorative practices. The challenges are more difficult as weeks go on – things are worsening throughout the country. Inflow to homelessness outpaces the outflow. Our approach is to work with a continuum of responses. Immediate crisis response, stabilization and support, and long term permanent partnerships. Foodworks served 4,784 last year. 70 are fed daily at the drop in center. We’re adding 40 beds in 2026. We have lots of collaborations and partnerships. New housing is critical and a priority. The community is finding a way. We are walking that path with people, over barriers to stable housing. Our current capital projects are to build a new 40 bed shelter on Royal Road, and we are purchasing 141 Canal Street (Foodworks), but there are environmental challenges. Questions?
Peter Elwell – happy to participate in the discussion.
Liz – I’m a long term supporter and fundraiser for Groundworks for many years and I want to … I understand Becky best is in a new position .
Libby – She is director of shelters and coordinated entry.
Liz – a moment for the death of your staff member… ares taff safe. OSHA made some recommendations? They’ve been completed? A lockable keyless door system? Secure bathrooms? Weapon screening process? De-escalation areas? Security present? (Staff are trained) Training for minimal self defense and escape?
(yes to all except security)
Liz – Great – I want to make sure first responders are called when needed. Others have come to our meetings who said someone tried to hang themselves and first responders didn’t call?
Libby – our staff called HCRS liaison. We’ve debriefed with police, fire and EMS. We’ll call 911 directly first from now on.
Amanda – is it you mission to be a low barrier shelter?
Libby – not our mission, but we will have multiple shelters, and one will be low barrier. The new one will be a higher threshold. Our low barrier is on south main – no substances on site, but people who have used can get services if they can be non disruptive to others.
Amanda – the new shelter rules will not be low barrier?
Libby – in this setting we would have no substances on site, but expect them not to use while staying there. We’d work with them if it was a relapse. We have a continuum of shelters at that point and can move people if we need to.
Amanda – essential to have a low barrier shelter?
Libby – there is a life saving element to having low barrier. We have a mission to help people get housed. If we left out people using substances, there would be few options for those people.
Amanda – what’s the perimeter for no substance use?
Libby – our property boundary.
Amanda – so parking lot, sidewalk..
Libby – the sidewalk belongs to the town.
Peter Elwell – the shelter at 54 Main and the new one will be operated differently. In the design of the new shelter, some factors were taken into account. The opens. The entire first floor will be visible to the staff – increases safety and reduce risks. All activities in communal space can be seen. The access area will have an airlock, to be buzzed in by staff. Bed and bath spaces will be on the second floor in with an open area (hallway) with cameras. Great openness in the space. For programming, we think it is the right thing to do, that we will bring into the program at 81 Royal Road, people we’ve already been working with. Regular receivers of services. Unlike the low barrier shelter, the 40 beds will be allocated to people we know and we have a level of confidence in them.
Liz – no longer a family shelter?
Peter – it hasn’t been a family shelter for years. Primarily for adults.
Liz – I know you work with HCRS, do they screen them for mental health?
Libby – our staff make referrals to them if we have concerns – mental health, outreach services, drug use.
Liz – what about criminal records?
Libby – we are working on a way to have a partnering service file sharing system as part of our intake process. We ask you to sign a release allowing us to talk to any number of folks in the community.
Isaac – thanks for your commitment and leadership through difficult times. I can’t thank you enough. You used the word partnership – you don’t hold all the solutions. You understand the power of working together with the municipal government and other organizations. I feel safer in the community because of the work you do because you have relationships and they are key to our safety.
Oscar – it is a sad reality that operating a shelter is not the most glamorous job. I’m also really grateful that you exists and the work you are doing is necessary. Brattleboro would be far worse off without you.
Peter Case – – thanks for what you do. I spend time defending the human services work in town. They catch a lot of lightning without people knowing what you do.
Dick D – I am a resident at Morningside. We’ve had many conversations, and many issues haven’t ben discussed yet. With the shelter coming back there is a lot of consternation about safety. That should be talked about. We hoped things would be implemented – a metal detector at the entry. Any airlock does nothing. Our neighbors are concerned. Noise, theft from vehicles,…all of that stopped when the shelter stopped after the death. We have an elderly population and they have concerns. Groundworks has done a lot to alleviate the concerns. What if the issues happen again? Where do I go? It’s great to have a shelter. The board and administration need to know there are two sides to this wheel. Residents were deeply affected by what happened. Most things have been granted, but a few things have not. For safety.
Liz – one thing I asked about was a weapons screening process?
Libby – have had multiple conversations with the police… to have signage posted on the property. We looked at metal detectors and how to get it funded. We are thinking about whether trying our staff vs hiring contractor is best. WE asked for 100k of funding for that work and it was not granted. And we work with he police about how to approach situations, sharing our concerns with police about individuals, getting back-up on site if we are nervous.
Liz – you need to respond to Dick about working with neighbors. Your search for a metal detector is part of the shelter?
Peter – I’m overseeing the shelter project. Weekly I talk with Morningside – it is an obligation we have. The disruption is real and some residents have spoken up for the shelter, and some are extremely concerns and would have voted against us if they could have. With all of that as context, we stay in good clear communication. Quite a few asks, and we’ve granted almost all of them. Lots of details will still be worked out, working with the neighborhood. There is a year to work it out. There will be times when real differences happen. We haven’t said no to a security person or a metal detector, but it is outside the scope of funding and need to look in other places.
Liz – it seems like it is an OSHA item.
Peter – glad you raised that. Over the years I served in many ways. I was the staff person with VOSHA during that process. We can speak with them. They were really clear that they make initial findings – and this is an unusual workplace – and they were really clear they anted to have an interactive process with us, and over 6-8 weeks we had an extended process, and we had clear expectations documented, and more work to do. We couldn’t make a commitment to a security guard at that point, and VOSHA was understanding and happy with he way they addressed the intent of their funding.
Liz – those two safety and security items would be a priority for fundraising? In light of outfitting the new shelter? Is it a priority for the new shelter, specifically for this purpose?
Peter – the science is mixed on this. We shouldn’t assume that a metal detector or a uniformed security person necessarily makes anyone safer. It is part of the full mix of what we have to consider. This things re in the mix of consideration. VOSHA said the steps we took to make things safer, have materially reduced risked and increased safety. Not every details would be as originally written. the western of the person or equipment is something we are actively considering. But it is not just someone writing a check for it.
Amanda – as a selectboard member , the safety of the community is of utmost importance. hearing you talk about he conversations with Morningside, have you had conversations with the South main community? Please consider having a metal detector? People don’t want to pay more taxes but we need operating roads and a fire department and library. We make this choices all the time. Take it seriously to make choices to keep people safe.
Gemma S – I have a couple of questions about housing issues. You list stats about wages and what it cost to afford housing in town? Where from? You have some quotes from the housing assessment – is that accessible? Third, there was a census of the number of homeless households- I’m not seeing how many individuals that means. Safety – the right to keep and bear arms is a civil right and I’m curious how people give up their rights because they are homeless. People can ban weapons , but people who are homeless don’t have places to keep their things. How will Groundworks protect the rights of the people they care for?
Libby – the stat on affordability comes from national Low Income Housing Coalition. I gave VT numbers. The VT Housing needs assessment comes from VT housing and community development. Unsheltered people, unduplicated – 53 households. Our team might meet 70 people at any time in the community. Protecting rights to own firearms – we have an agreement with the police that we can offer a place to store their firearm with the Brattleboro police department.
Steve P – it seems like homelessness is only going to get worse, with AI dumping people out of the job market. Your work needs to take into account account your neighbors. Just because you do noble work you can’t ignore the needs of your neighbors. Your business model is to surround the downtown with uses, and the town cleans up your business model. What makes sense to put where. Not on our property? With AI coming? There are win-win-win-win solutions, but you can do drugs downtown is madness. It’s like putting pine tree over your strawberries. We’r about to get slammed in this country. Unless you don’t care about the downtown. We need a conversation about location. There have been suggestions about places out of downtown, but they were rejected. need conversations about location.
Bill H – thanks for the work you are doing. My interest in VT tax dollars. is there a residency check for people we are helping. I don’t mind VT dollars helping Vermonters. We’re an easy mark for people coming over the line. Other states need to take care of their own. There should be a residency requirement or commitment. is there an incentive for people to move on from the help they are getting and how can we help with that incentive program?
Peter – wouldn’t it be great if we could. There are lots of ways organizations move people along , but continue to support this individuals. The relationship doesn’t end. We have to keep working to make sure things are sustainable. There’s no stipend to help people launch into housing.
Liz – residency is a state issue.
Libby -we do ask people. We find that primarily, the vast majority are active in the community they were last housed.
Peter – there is a data point – overwhelming are from the community. One stat that is clear is a year ago, Brave Little State did an analysis of if we were attracting folks of need creating other costs and impacts. They used state of Vermont data in the motel program, and a survey that was done. It was 96% last residence was in VT. 4% were from outside Vermont. Two different organizations found the same figures.
Liz – Brattleboro’s data says 85% of calls to the motel program were out of town.
Libby – in One Brattleboro – that data point – the calls were made about people not enrolled in the motel program, but were conducting activities that needed th police.
Liz – that’s a mixture of drug dealers and the people they prey upon.
(Ash?) – I’ve been at Groundworks and I have seizures and I have been NARCAN’ed unnecessarily – staff doesn’t know the difference between the two. Just giving mentally ill people a hotel or apartment it isn’t helping them with their problem. We do need help to relearn how to take care of ourselves. More support for mental health. I wanted to put that out there.
Smoke N Munch Second Class Liquor License, Tobacco License and Tobacco Substitute Endorsement Permit
Peter – is the applicant for Smoke and Munch here?
Liz – let’s take 5 minute break now.
Mohamed Sajan – hello there…
Seth – we’re just taking a break and will be with you in a few minutes.
Smoke N Munch Second Class Liquor License, Tobacco License and Tobacco Substitute Endorsement Permit, For Real
(I miss the ASL interpreters)
Liz – ok people take your seats. I don’t have my mallet.
Potter – gavel.
Liz – We are looking for the gentleman from Smoke and Munch.
Potter – we had a renewal for their license and the proprietor is here to talk with the board because of tobacco compliance violations. Staff recommends approving, but here he is…
Liz – what were the violations and what have you done?
Mohamed Sajan – (muted). Can you hear me now? Ok. Thanks for granting me opportunity to do business. I had an employee that was doing very well and became irresponsible, and he sold to a minor because he was on the phone and din’t check and ID. He made the same mistake again and again so I had to take him out of the business. I have hired a responsible employee to check ID and serve the community according to the law. Also, a new POS system that will not allow a sale if someone is under 21. These are protecting me for the mistakes happening again.
Isaac – thanks for taking it seriously. We have concerns about addictions and tobacco use by minors. I’m interested – 3 violations in the same year – but one staff member?
Sajan – he was doing well, but he did the same three mistakes.
Isaac – if it was three times, isn’t it likely there were more mistakes by this person?
Sajan – I was really concerned and watched hime, but he had a phone addiction and wasn’t paying attention. I went to the state liquor and tobacco, and told them I fired this person, and we did regular business.
Isaac – when was the scan technology?
Sajan – after the third time – we manually check and scan the ID – a two step process. No sales without ID and over age limit.
Isaac – thanks – accountability is important. I appreciate you answering questions.
Amanda – I appreciate you making the change. How do you do training?
Sajan – I do training, and there is a state training program for that.
Amanda – I appreciate the work you have done, and we take these things seriously. We decide if someone can have a license. I move we approve… under the conditions that it is a 6 month license, all employees get trained by the state, and all employees get visual checks of ID, and I ask for unperson training.
Liz – what do you think of the conditions?
Sajan – I am also certified for that training. I’m training every day. I can send them for unperson training. I can agree to your terms.
Amanda – Cassandra wants all the selectboard to take a training as well.
Fric – I don’t believe he answered either question.
Liz – he agreed to the conditions and identified the training proposed.
Sajan – after the 3rd incident we have had no issues.
approved 5-0
Review of Draft Town Charter and Discuss Related Petitions
Kate O’Connor, Maya Hasagawa, and Joy…
Liz – before you begin, I’d like to thank you for the intense commitment of time you made to the community. Much appreciated by all.
Potter – so, the Charter Review Commission joined you and you had a preliminary discussion of proposals. There have been developments about citizen charter petitions. Both have now been certified. The first is in your packet (Australian Ballot) and the second is Open Town Meeting. The Carter Commission wrote you a letter and redline version of an edited Charter.
Kate – we were here on July 9. Tonight we have a gift – our draft Charter and there are two versions. One shows the changes, and one has a clean copy you can read more easily. It’s on the town web site. The product is the result of 42 public meetings over multiple years. All on BCTV. We began 2.5 years ago reviewing previous Charter commissions, reviewed history, got input from Town staff, reviewed other town charters, and got lots of background information. One thing was public participation – we took it seriously as anyone who went to a meeting knows. In July, that was before the two petitions were circulated. When we were here, we were going to ask for the Charter to be put on the ballot for Nov 4th… that seems premature now. We want to come back to you when you come back with those tow charters. We have a meeting to look at things again. When you are ready about our charter, we will have our done. We were planning, and ready to discuss our recommendations, and we have lots of them. We can present them whenever you want us to. We can answer any questions tonight.
Liz – in reading the work you’ve done, it assumes that RTM is no longer, yet you are not suggesting we put that on the ballot as a spereate questions.
Kate – it is our understanding that it will be the first question that must be asked, before open town meeting and before Australian ballot – to rescind RTM.
Liz – your draft assumes RTM will go away?
Kate – yeah, our job was to go over the entire charter and make recommendations. We came to the decision open town meeting is the best for of government for Brattleboro.
Liz – you don’t believe RTM is the best form..
Kate – based on the 42 meetings and what we have heard over 42 meetings, we believe open town meeting is what we are hearing from everyone. What we are hearing everyone wants everyone to be represented… there is a different… the majority of the people want to have a discussion and want everyone to be able to take part in government, and from our POV that is open town meeting.
Liz – the charter says we need to put the petitions on the next annual town meeting, in March…. so all questions might be best done in March.
Kate – right – putting us on in November and them in March… it is premature.
Bob F- my recommendation is the board set a vote to discontinue RTM for NOV 4th. Both petitions and the Charter Review Commission – when Kate says we are hearing everyone wants to be counted, that is assuming people want to discontinue RTM. I recommend you hold a special meeting. Once you vote to have RTM, you have it until you got not to have it. Once you have that vote, if RTM is sustained, you’ll still put both petitions on the ballot for March, and so you could be voting again on RTM, but the March meeting would be an RTM next spring. If the vote in March is to discontinue RTM, that won’t take effect until the legislature approves it. If the vote in November is to discontinue RTM, then you can prepare for an open town meeting in march and at that meeting you’d still have the petition articles, updated possibly. Then you’d vote on Australian ballot vs open town meeting and March 2026 would be an open town meeting. It makes sense to know what to prepare for by having the vote in November.
– we have been looking for a way to get town input. It would allow it to guide our work.
Liz – what happens if the petitions pass. What happens, with two competing petitions? How do you say one or the other.
– they could both pass then the state would then decide.
Bob F – hopefully voters will read the articles.
Liz – the one with the most votes wins?
Bob – each article can pass or fail independent of the other. Both can pass.
Liz – there could be an additional article the selectboard -says – if both pass what do you want? It would be voting twice but gives us control over what the voting public wants. each petition is an island in itself. The selectboard would need a fourth article – to find out if both pass…
– with repetitions and the charter – it would be presented… maybe you could have an advisory vote.
Bob – an article for the first Tuesday that in the event both pass, what do you want to do? It might be legal but it confuses it even more. It raises the question of both passing. I’ve talked with the petitioners. The petitions are complicating the bigger issue of town governance. Without them you’d have a group for and against Australian ballot. Open Town Meeting would be the default.
Oscar – if the RTM vote…after the RTM vote in November we could make a technical change to the articles if it is already decided? (yes) What if we ask in November about all three, then all three by March become moot?
Bob – doing it as a charter change or a vote? The petitions are for charter changes. I get what you are saying… vote on the choice, but you need charters all prepared.
Oscar – they can only be at the regular March meeting?
Bob – no special meetings – at the next annual meeting or general election or primary.
– Under the statute you need an informational meeting 30 days, plus have a warning for that – basically a 60 day lead time. We’ve passed that for November.
Oscar – RTM vote in November and petitions in March. There was some question of the logistics of an election in November?
Potter – there are logistics around whatever you choose to do. What you want to do, then we’ll help you do it.
Peter case – I spend time saying democracy doesn’t move quick, but here we are. You are recommending to put RTm on the ballot up or down in November. Explain to me, RTM goes on the ballot on Nov 4th, it passes, and no RTM. It passes we do RTM. No legislature at this poi t? But if we wait til March it does?
– it’s then a charter change. You can put it on as the selectboard but the legislature has to approve it.
Liz – Nov to March is a long time to understand what’s going on, and have a town wide discussion. What the people are voting on in novemeber is an incomplete thought. You are only giving them half an answer. The petitions have to be in March. I think it would be better to have a discussion of all the questions. It is a complex problem and we want to give them all the information at one time so they can vote on it.
Bob – by voting on, if you vote it out and the default of the statute is open town meeting . If you no in November it is discontinued, you don’t have to have reps do their caucuses and elections, etc. You’ll plan for passing articles in an open town meeting. There are practical things. By having a vote in March, there is uncertainty about reserving the gym on two dates during playoff games.
– discontinuing RTM is a first step vote… you could make it easier to understand by addressing this threshold issue before… it is less hypothetical, rather than tiered discussions.
Oscar – what are we trying to come out of the meeting today… head nods for doing it a certain way?
Potter – if you want to accept Bob’s recommendation we can prepare for a fall meeting…
Peter – Novemebr we vote it up or down. if we eliminate it, does that nullify the petition?
– just the first question on the Australian ballot question, because the vote will have already happened?
Peter – does anything get eliminated in March
– the first article is shall we discontinue RTM… you won’t need to discontinue something that no longer exists.
Bob – we’d renumber them, then.
Liz – if RTM was voted to continue then the article would remain the same?
Bob – yes- the vote could be the opposite than that in November, but you’d still hold RTM a couple Saturday’s later, so it wouldn’t go into effect until 2027.
Amanda – what happens – the new charter drat says how committees are formed. What if we defaulted to open town meeting?
Kate – our charter changes would not be voted on, so what we have in the charter isn’t happening yet.
Bob – the charter keeps going until amended.
Franz R – you find this confusing? I’d say so. There is a book about negotiating solitons called Getting to Yes. It says you want to adhere to principles, not positions. The Charter Revision Commission has adopted the positions. The rest of us haven’t done the work yet. We need to set the principles , let alone the process. Take a step back from positions and look at principles – like maximizing participation, inclusiveness, but we also want robust discussion which happens in a town meeting setting, and we want the possibility of amendment. How do the positions meet the principles.
Liz – we aren’t discussing the merits, but how to put it on the ballot.
Gemma – procedural questions – as I read the state statute, a vote establishing a RTM remains in effect until a vote occurs at a special meeting established for that purpose. It must be voted on by RTM. Furthermore, the current charter says that petitions to adopt an ordinance it shall be included or a special RTM shall be called. The tow petitions have to be voted on by RTM as I read that law.
– there is language in addendum A that ays RTM cannot vote on its own existence. Has to be town wide. The second point – it is a charter change, not an ordinance.
Gemma – trying to find language that governs the inclusion of petitions on the town ballot.
– near the end where it talks about mending the charter, by statute. State.
Liz – that was fun.
Randy – first, in the Charter, is there any precedent to not have a preamble? Is there a place large enough to hold open town meeting? If there is a vote in November and RTM is voted out and open town meeting is in, does that take out the new petition? Is there precedent for having to petitions for how to have a government?
Liz – the merits of one vs the other, vs how to ask people to vote.
Bob – preamble you see in some charters – it is a matter of style. Has it come up before? I don’t know. Any can be legally challenged by petition to reconsider.
– would the vote in Nov. invalidate the petition – no.
Kate – I can assure you we have numerous conversations and we can host an open town meeting.
Bob – across the state – not all voters turn out.
Dick D – I’ll address the November vote. I agree with the town attorney to have it. Do we have a big enough facility – there are roughly 15k voters eligible to go to the district meeting at the high school for the budget – and 300 don’t show up. Back in 1996, over 900 came together to reduce the budget. Then there was a revote and money was put back in the budget. There is enough room to hold the meetings. Moot point.
Fric – I think we have been spending too much money and we don’t need to rush into this with a November vote. It is not a time of year for us to considering things carefully. I’m far from the only one distracted by other things. The expense of an additional vote and poor turnout won’t give us any meaningful poll of the community one way or another. The survey that was done, I didn’t even know about. I don’t see how open town meeting or RTM are different, preparing -wise. Can’t be that hard. Or preparing the gym for two days. We’ve had open town meetings on other days or nights. My understanding is there is though of a petition in support of RTM which would add a third confounding yes or no question. It would be good to have one three option as one, but yes, democracy. Good luck.
John K – I’m confused. I advocate we do one election in November and another in March. RTM yes or no, the petitions yes or no. As the chair stated, it is the time of year we are used to voting and we are ready for voting and we can focus on all at the same time. It will change our form of government. There are a lot of assumptions people will vote out RTM. I’m not so sure it will happen. If we have one meeting and one election, and no follow up election, we owe it to ourselves to take this opportunity to make this kind of change at the election with the largest turnout rather than special meeting.
Steve – you took the words out of my mouth. It is deeply concerning. There are massive cognitive problems for your average people about what this means. It has to be clear. There needs to be time to educate the community – some people don’t even know what RTM is. Is there no hybrid option? Can’t we let it be open at a meeting then people could go home and send in a ballot?
D Gartenstein – thanks for everyone engaging in the discussion. I have a question. RTM is adopted by charter, how can a town wide vote rescind it without the legislature? And as for the hybrid – could the budget be presented to town meeting, and then another check be Australian ballot.
Bob – As the charter stands, you could have the check of the vote on the budget by referendum. You could change the charter to make it automatic. The first one, it is by statute to form RTM, but RTM can’t vote on its own existence. has to be town wide. The Charter Commission has other changes, no matter how this goes.
– when RTM was adopted, there was no provision to vote to have it, and that has been passed since. That’s why this is a charter change and it can be undone by a vote.
Gemma – that’s what I was getting at before. I see nothing in our charter that allows a vote by the people to take effect immediately. Until the legislature approves it. The law that was passed later is specific – it has to be rescinded by town meeting. I oppose this change, but if we go forward, we have to ascertain if is being done according to the law.
Steven – town meeting in Brattleboro is everyone…
– the statute that speaks to a town wide vote to discontinue – until the municipality votes to discontinue.
Gemma – that’s not the entire statute
Liz – Gemma, let the attorney continue.
– page 16 of the current charter – the act creating town meeting … the existence of RTM cannot be voted on by RTM.
Liz – you still want to debate this?
() – its the right of the people to decide
Andy Davis – creating time to look at all the options is important, the idea of all three on a vote in March – I like that. November will be on us soon. We have a hybrid system now – a RTM, a selectboard – accountability is another underlying principle. We have a hybrid system and checks and balances. It is not three different systems. there are overlapping functions. One option is improving RTM and responding to the critique. I’m in favor of time to convene informational meetings to educate the public. And to get the principles. Thanks for having the clock.
Beth K – I appreciate what people have been saying. Simple question – in the notion of a hybrid, is it a possibility to be creative to have an open town meeting with certain things on an Australian ballot for people who don’t want to show up or can’t. What’s the possibility?
Kate – speaking personally, from my experience, I know we have worked hard on the charter and has taken us as long as it has because we wanted to get it right and we have listened. take that into consideration. Changing the form of government is important. There is interest now. It can take me an hour to go a block. It is really important that the way this vote happens is easy to understand. personally, I think asking people the same question twice is confusing. It’s confusing to explain. Just my personal opinion, as someone trying to explain what could happen. Think clearly about having a vote then a revote if it is the right way to go. The question of changing town government will take lots of discussion. We expect a month long education campaign for our charter changes.
Maya – I encourage everyone, no matter which you support, read the charter changes. There is a lot in here that has nothing to do with the type of meeting. It’s not the entire focus of our discussion. Sad that people are focusing on that issue rather than the charter as a whole. Please read the charter- redacted and the clean version.
Liz – would the Charter Commission be open to having two versions – one for open and one for Australian?
Kate – one things is, some things are dependent on the other. We have to talk about this next week. That’s at all order for us. We recommend open town meeting, after 2.5 years of working on it. With the timing – if you have the votes in March, there is a primary election next August and a general in November. There are other opportunities. You on’t have to have a special election.
Liz – whatever the outcome in March, your work continues…
Kate – we’ve had those discussions about the results of an election
Liz – Australian ballot includes robust informational sessions for discussion.
Peter – we are participating but discussing things we haven’t discussed, so these are personal statements, but I think it is important it gets settled clearly, and putting all three questions on in March. But the reason I rose, I actually, while it is complicated and challenging , I don’t think there is anything regrettable – we have our work product, looked at all aspects of the charter, and the people will vote, but people have come forward in various ways. I think it is great that we have all these petitions – you can put them up for a vote side by side in March, and when the community settles the question, we can finish our work incorporating that outcome. Seems like a healthy process we can be proud of.
Gemma – I can’t find the charter on the town website…
Kate – it’s on the charter page and in the selectboard meeting packet.
Neil M – it sounds like we have – hold off to March, and educate. Who is going to do it? There are three groups? Each will defend its position as hard and fast as it can. You won’t have time to chaperone and guide the information distribution – someone else to put the info together and have meetings and have people come together and talk about it so you have informed voters in March.
Liz – the elements of the charter will be a longer term discussion, but the town clerk will have an interpretive statement of the ballot.
Bob – the petitions will need informational meetings, and because there are two opposing petitions we have to talk about the draft of the charter to be presented and voters have to look at it and review it.
Ken – real quick – I echo Mr Davis about being slow. We are changing our constitution – our top of government. Shouldn’t be taken lightly. All ducks should be in a row.
Randy – are we having separate meetings for information meetings?
Liz – one for the town and all three items would be discussed.
Ivan H – an important point to reduce the odds of confusion – emphasize voting on all.
Fric – my reading of the charter is RTM or whatever we have is fundamental and deserves the extra scrutiny, it is not woven into the fabric of the charter writ large. Having two options seems – I’d like to see how much it would require. I was involved in the charter revision last time and as we go through the budget, we went through the proposed charred changes line by line.
(The zoom meeting cut itself off and is trying to reconnect)
Bob – depends on the charter review committee – you had different articles, and others have been done by resolution . It depends how it is brought to RTM – some were brought by resolution. Then the time when the last review came together and all of them together were put on the ballot by the selectboard. Depends how it is introduced.
Fric – there is some debate about a change from RTM would it be a charter change and need to go before the legislature….
Liz – back to the board –
Oscar – in the last 45 minutes people stared drifting toward two potions in March – that’s not the recommendation.
Bob – if you leave it to March you will have RTM next year period. Depending on views of open vs Australian could determine whether to discontinue. If you vote in November it is just representative or not, then you can vote on open vs Australian in March. If you want them all on in March it is not illegal, but you will prepare for a RTM, which could be a lame duck…
Liz – we don’t need a motion or vote. Should we plan to wan a November ballot or have it all in March.
Peter – lots information andogodu points. My intimate thing is to put one thing on in November, but we might not have enough info to get to people yet. Tonight, let’s discuss at a future meeting. Not prepared to make a decision tonight.
Oscar – seems ok.
Amanda – a wise suggestion
Isaac – time is our friend, and many have different perspectives say let’s wait. We have other things to discuss coming down the pike, so rather than locking us in to the discussion again, I’d suggest we let this rest for now and if someone feels it is really important to continue this discussion – but we don’t have to do that. There isn’t a strong rally cry to have this vote in November.
Liz – we need to respond to the Town Atty. We can table it to our next regular meeting on the 24th. It will be held at 7:25 on a Wednesday night.
Amanda – will we be voting?
Liz – discussing and determining whether to discuss on October 3rd to warn it.
Kate – we’ll be back.
Ze end
Hannah was the other attorney.
They take another break.
They’ll discuss a finance report and their goals. I’m calling it quits for now. G’night!
Thanks!
As ever, fine reporting, Chris.