Selectboard Meeting Notes – Representative Town Meeting On Hold, Staff Furloughs

Brattleboro Selectboard april 7

The Brattleboro Selectboard met virtually to discuss updates regarding COVID-19, staff furloughs, putting Representative Town Meeting on further hold, and other matters. Board members urged landlords to pause rents and banks to pause mortgage payments. And licensed electricians may be required for most rental properties repairs.

It wasn’t the smoothest technological feat, and it took a while to get things working semi-smoothly, but it sufficed.

Comments | 8

  • Preliminaries

    Pre meeting banter as people login to goto meeting. And… we’re off.

    Chair Tim Wessel – welcome to the April 7 regular meeting. We’re absent one member today. My remarks are simple and straightforward – may you live in interesting times is a saying, and we do live in interesting times. Support your neighbors, friends and family.

    Town Manager Elwell – no general comments tonight.

    Tim – we did have a special meeting last Thursday that went pretty well. Our assistant town manager is managing this meeting – muting and unmuting people. It helps with bandwidth to turn off cameras not in use. We’ll have public participation, and comments for any agenda item. One other thing, the chat window is open for you to let me that you’d like to speak.

    Millicent Cooley – We’ve formed a volunteer tech support team, a part of BAMA. Two or three of us help people with technical issues during this meeting. The way to call on us is through the chat feature. Select the name of one of the tech team… me, Alan Baker, and Steve Morlock. We’ll try to help.

    Tim – we’re going to try to have public participation. Use the chat feature. Let’s see how it goes in this brave new world. There is a caller on the line. No one is chatting to raise their hand. Caller?

    Daniel – maybe allow people to raise their hands, with cameras on? Some may not be able to chat?

    Tim – we’ll slow way down if we turn everyone on.

    Liz – a caller on chat.

    Tim – Kurt Daims is chiming in.Can you hear me? I’m not hearing Kurt.

    Peter – I’m getting a text from Patrick saying it isn’t Kurt on the line, but Kurt has a comment.

    Tim – standby caller…

    Kurt – (with bird on shoulder) This is public participation? I was wondering if there was a provision to follow up on RTM voted with powers of referendum and petition in the charter? The people need a new way to do checks and balances on the RTM.

    Tim – RTM is on our agenda tonight.

    Kurt – the charter provides for people to ask for reconsideration to vote on something if they don’t like the RTM vote, and there’s no way to do petitions in public.

    Tim – RTM is representative town meeting – we’ll discuss that later… we’ll address it later. Is Gary on the phone?

    Patrick – if you log in via the web, I can’t shut your camera off and those images remain. Tonight, I can’t affect that. We do have a caller.

    Elwell – a tech question – we can’t know if a caller wants to speak. We might have to open their mic and ask them if they want to.

    Tim. Ok. Let’s do that if we still have a caller? Move on?

  • COVID-19 Update, Parking Staff Furlough, No RTM For Now,

    Elwell – I won’t go deep into the overall changes to Town operations like last week. It’s available to view and much is just on our town website. What I intend to do is talk about how we are functioning and what’s new.

    Elwell – Police and fire are provided 24-7, but procedures for both departments have been modified for best practices – to protect first responders and public. They can’t always maintain social distancing. Some person to person contact happens. If you have an emergency, call 911.

    Elwell – the field services provided by DPW and Rec & Parks – mostly working as individuals rather than crews on projects intended to keep the public safe. WE are keeping green spaces safe in parks, but stay off of equipment. Get out for stress relief.

    Elwell – the rest of town services are being provided from home. We’re working remotely, and finding ways to provide services to the community. That’s the broad view. The vast majority are doing the usual amount of work. Some are at lower level of capacity, and just a few are unable to perform services during this time.

    Elwell – a couple of updates – we’ve been advised that the early census returns in Windham County are coming in very slowly. I know people are distracted, but pay attention to the census. If you can’t do it online, or lost the mail, be alert for census takers. We need a complete count of Brattleboro and Windham County to benefit from population-based programs. The aid depends on population compared to others. It is important to participate.

    Liz – I was a census taker ten years ago. It is important, and now is a perfect example fo why we need the census and aid from the federal government. let’s do it and be counted and get what we need for the federal government.

    Elwell – Next, furloughs of town employees. We’ve becoming better aware of what aid packages will provide and what will be required by the Town. We understand the basics, and what will be available and what we need to reimburse. It is common that local and state governments are self insured for unemployment insurance. When we do have a claim, they receive the benefit from the state and we get billed dollar for dollar. It’s a good way. We don’t have a lot of unemployment claims. Spending money year after year for coverage isn’t smart. This year, however, the addition of the better protections for employees collecting unemployment – the increased benefit the federal government is adding – we needed to understand. Will we need to fully repay? Etc. If we had to repay, it would be better for the Town to just keep paying employees. Turns out, Town employees can get the federal addition to unemployment, and we only need to reimburse 50%, and that combo means that when town employees aren’t going to be active right now, it is in the collective good to have a limited number of furloughs. We want to limit this, but there may be some in the general fund. We did determine earlier today, based on this info and parking enforcement is shut down, it is appropriate for the parking enterprise fund, and revenue is zero, it is likely that the parking fund will end in a deficit in over $100k. Wew don’t expect the fund to go into deficit, but we do expect the operations will be in deficit for the year, even after not proceeding with capital work like paving the Preston Lot this spring. For now, with no investment, and reducing the cost of staffing, we can contain that deficit just north of $100k. That meant advising three employees that they will be on furlough this Friday – all other benefits stay whole. A furlough is dif from a layoff. A layoff is a separation with a possibility of coming back. A furlough is a temporary length of time where the relationship remains but isn’t paid – the unpaid status, entitled to collect unemployment compensation. They’ll be back when we reactivate parking, possibly July 1. That’s the full explanation. There is a fourth parking fund employee that is going to parks maintenance for a while. Questions?

    Ian Goodnow – Peter, furlough and town employees… do all the Town employees have adequate equipment to work remotely, and if not, could they be furloughed because of that?

    Elwell – many employees are fully busy or nearly fully busy. Some are doing special projects or long term necessary work. Some are at reduced capacity. We’ll do additional repurposing. Employees are doing tasks different from their normal tasks. If this goes on for a few more week, maybe no more furloughs, but if it goes on longer, more may be furloughed. We’ll go day by day or week by week on that. Dept heads are here if you have specific questions.

    Daniel – to what extent the HR director is supporting staff with navigating the unemployment system. It’s not easy. The advice is to begin online, but then also get on the phone. They have a huge number of calls, is the HR director supporting them?

    Elwell – yes, when we met earlier with these employees, we wanted to know how this would affect them, and we had an open conversation. Sally Nix will be their full partner. A promise we intend to keep, anytime they need assistance. She knows the most about details of this tricky business of unemployment process when so many others are getting into it.

    Elwell – and, sincerely, it could sound sarcastic or snarky because of the contest, it is sincere when I say thank you to the selectboard and community that supported this position in town government. It isn’t easy to do. Having her on the team right now is very important to all of us.

    Tim – thanks for the dive into the furlough situation. We have to balance taking care of employees and taking care of taxpayers. So far so good. I’ll take public comments soon – we’re discussing the overall update, and will now talk about RTM, and potential town actions.

    Elwell – first, Kurt’s question – the the maximum degree possible, we want to follow our normal processes outlined in the charter and the law. We want to deviate to the smallest degree possible. Our first plan was to re-warn the meeting tonight – 30-40 days ahead of meeting – it would have been with May, and lined up with the latest that a meeting could be held and maintain the full timeline opportunity for petitions and revotes. May 9th was a date of significance, but it is not practical. We have no reasonable expectation we can hold that meeting. We need to find a way to hold a timely meeting, and how to adjust timelines and processes so rights are fully protected. We might get to July and continue to function without a budget, or it might mean hypothetically we hold a meeting in June, but we allow appeals into the new fiscal year and we deal with the implications of that. Step by step we need to be sensible and pay keen attention to if we make any adjustments to the normal process for these things. WE can’t empower some and disempower others. My strong advice, then, is – I can’t find a way to hold a meeting with 140 members and other active participants, but we’re having challenges right now with just a handful. The technology just doesn’t allow fair play for the moderation among 140 people and how voting would occur in this format, when state law requires votes need to be roll call vote. Think of the number of votes during the meeting that would need roll call votes – dozens per day. Our goal is to keep looking for a tool to facilitate electronic town meeting, but we should make plans to bring people together when it is safe and practical. It doesn’t need to be in the gym. We can do social distancing. We just don’t know enough right now. We’re talking to people about alternative spaces, but also that it might be warm and if it doesn’t rain, maybe we hold a meeting outside under a tent. Unusual but proper that would be safer. MY two cents – just hang in and not solve it faster than we have to. There is terrific potential it could harm the democratic process to rush to do RTM.

    Tim – I’ll refrain from comments about electronic RTM. Two things – the chat feature is handy, but use it to let me know if you have a question to ask. Don’t express views. Also, I’ll take a question from Milicent.

    Millicent – I thought I read a consideration of Australian ballot – that prompts me to say I hope that however we do this I hope all reps can hear one another. We need to hear the responses of the other. It adds to the challenge, but it is a democratic principle. I have a private suggestion I’ll send along. Hearing the differing opinions of our peers is important to preserve.

    Elwell – thanks. The special act of the legislature modifying open meeting laws for this kind of meeting temporarily allows for some decisions to be made in a collective way by Australian ballot instead. From my view, it is that kind of a change that I worry about. It might speed things up, if done safely, but it is important for all to be together to collective arrive at decisions. That’s why I hope we go slowly to solve these challenges. Even if it means extreme timelines.

    Daniel – the legislature is moving toward electronic voting and the house has a similar number, but maybe we have a conversation to learn more about, maybe in the future?

    Elwell – there are things like that we are exploring. We find out more and it doesn’t work. When I asked to go slowly, I don’t suggest we don’t look for a solution. Just that we find a good solution. The House is about the same time, and if they find a solution that can work for us, maybe that provides us a way to do it.

    Daniel – we have many votes in a day

    Tim – with friendly amendments and back and forth, it is more complex in some ways. Callers…

    Patrick – mics are now open, if we hear crickets I’ll shut down the mics.

    Tim – if you are on the phone…

    Terry Carter – I just want to thank you. I’m listening on my phone. I don’t have the app. This is very insightful.

    Tim – Unless there are other callers… Gary Stroud had something to say?

    Patrick – his mic is open and I’ve sent a camera request

    Gary – can you hear me now? To reply to Tim, I found zoom very good to deal with doctors. Many apps are compatible with what people have. The outdoor idea might be good, large capacity venues. Daniel – are we still .. are there people still being put out of their apartments, or electric getting cut off,?

    Tim – we can’t really address your third question, but send an email and we’ll follow up on those. Your first two dealt with RTM… I’m familiar with zoom and I only trust it as far as I can throw it. It has well-know security issues. We are looking at alternatives, and other venue potential.

    Liz – let’s wait.

    Elwell – we continue to explore sites. When we have better sense of timing, we’ll know which site might be best.

    Tim – potential additional town actions? Anyone? We’ve already taken some actions. It would be great if the board chimes in.

    Daniel – I don’t need to be on mute the whole time. I wanted to highlight for the public some of the actions already taken and ask what comes next. In the Town’s position, loan payments have been deferred until further notice.

    Elwell – we don’t have an endpoint. When things get back toward normal, the board can decide based on what seems right.

    Daniel – I’m proud we did it. It’s an example of what a creditor can do. We’ll be flexible, and now is not the time to be asking you to make payments. That’s the kind of bar we need to aim for in the town and state. My mortgage company isn’t in VT. For those of us who can advocate, we need to push pour creditors to say “let’s take a break until we now where we’re at.” I’m glad we aren’t doing utility service cutoffs. Bills are still piling on. I wonder, as a community, what we can do about that. I work at SEVCA and we help with electric disconnects and fuel. Not usually back balances. People will have big back balances. and it will be hard to get from under. I don’t have the answer. Maybe we start a special fund, or find one. I want to voice that the asking creditors to defer payments is where I’d like us to be as a community. Those of us in rocky situations are more impacted. I’m learning from middle class families suddenly come to SEVCA saying it is hard to navigate… many are having their eyes opened to public assistance. I want us to be there to support everyone.

    Liz – I’m really heartened by the work everyone in the community is doing. And legislative representatives. People are learning about unemployment and small business assistance. The more people understand it, the better we’ll see the cracks in the system. We should be paying attention to see what’s available and what might be missing.

    Ian – I echo those comments. It is a trying time to join the selectboard but am heartened by all the work is being done. Reach out to us. We’re hear to represent you. We can direct you to the right people if we can’t answer it. You aren’t alone.

    Daniel – can I double dip? There is a need for data. I’d like to think the BDCC is collecting data about business impacts. It’s hard to imagine a relief fund without knowing the need. I had a conversation with a local small business and they wanted the board to step up in an aggressive way, and we don’t know how much we’re needed to fill that hole, and if it is something we can do. I want data in front of me. Whatever we can do to get that info will make me feel better informed.

    Tim – we have something later on the agenda for landlords. I own two units on Frost Street. I reached out to my tenants and asked their situation. My mortgage company isn’t giving me any breaks, but I’m checking in with tenants. They are mostly retaining their jobs, so we’re all lucky. We’ll see how it is for May. Every landlord should be having this conversation. Why lose your tenants. It’s a serious situation and everyone should do the right thing. Landlords need to push the pause button for tenants.

    Stephanie Bonin – The downtown community needs cash in hand right now. I hear your comments, but we are about three weeks into this and rent wa due last week, bills are piling up, and the business community doesn’t have any income. We created the gift card challenge last weekend. We had to help businesses get gift certificates only. The idea was to help the community hibernate. Even the restaurants are seeing about 20% of their sales. This gets some money in hand to help pay bills when doors were closed. There was a $5k match. We got it quickly, and got another match extension, and we got that, too. Then I had three more calls for other matches. Two from people with second family homes here. One from our community. I get to announce the results – in 48 hours, we brought in a total of $57,503 directly to community – families in need and business owners.

    Tim – I watched it live as it happened. It’s an ongoing thing. That’s what we need people to do, if we want to have a similar town at the end of this.

    Daniel – It was nice to see people step up. I’m glad fund are going to needy families. How are you determining the families?

    Stephanie – we’re partnering with another org that already gives. The Retreat…

    Daniel – how much is going to them? How is it being split up?

    Stephanie – $13k, in $50 gift certificates. They serve their populations and we surprise them with gift cards matching the gift certificates that were bought.

    Daniel – so they might get $50 for everyone’s books.

    Liz – more planned?

    Stephanie – yes, I believe in viral… the emphasis here was on the donors, but equally impressive was the community and out of state.

    Daniel – I thought about specific businesses when I got gift cards. They are having a hard time right now. It’s a redistribution of wealth. Most of us don’t have $5k to give away. I encourage others that can do this to not wait. Plenty of people have needs that can be met.

    Stephanie – there is a new population coming to you in your work, and I put my voice to – all the people applying for unemployment and food assistance – many have never done it before. It’s okay to ask for help, and we need to change our identity around that. We’ll have a lot more lived experiences in our community.

    Tim – thanks for the update.

  • Association of Vermont Conservation Commissions Grant – Planning Services Application on Behalf of the Conservation Commission

    Sue Fillion – I’m here tonight for a tiny grant – $480 – to Association of VT Conservation Commissions. They want to do an interpretive signage for an existing trail. No match required. Due May 1.

    Tim – it is a tiny grant

    Ian – I’m very excited about this. The copy of the map is fairly low quality. Can we get a higher quality one sent to us?

    Sue – yes. I’ll try. Maybe my scan wasn’t too good.

    Ian – is it only for signage?

    Sue – just signs, and installation. Lynn Levine will be helping.

    Liz – very nice of her.

    Daniel – it is a nice but busy trail. People – keep your distance! I went up to Black Man Trail thinking it was less people, and it was closed. Narrowing the options. I hope the West River Trail can stay open.

    Elwell – on the Friends of the West River Trail website, do they have a map?

    Sue – I think it might be. I’ll ask them to get it up there if it isn’t.

    approved virtually

  • Ordinance Amendment – Chapter 8, Article 3, Section 8-32, First Reading, Add Requirement for Licensed Electricians

    Elwell – we’re proposing a small change. When people hire electricians at rental properties, regardless of unit number, electricians must be licensed. The issue is simply safety. Brian Bannon and Len Howard can speak in grater details… about what they see, but basically if you have three or more units, you need a licensed electrician. This is already required. It would raise the standard to apply to all rental properties. Important for public safety.

    Len – it is inconsistent now. You have to do it for plumbing. It’s important this type of work is done properly rather than a homeowner that thinks they know what they are doing.

    Tim – just until intended to be or are being rented. Not your home if no rentals. There was a real-world instance that led to this?

    Len – that is true. I’ve seen in in other homes I’ve gone into. It’s a safety concern and needs to be done.

    Tim – (reads proposed amendment)

    Elwell – written by Bob Fisher, Town Attorney.

    Tim – this is first reading. Second reading and adoption at next meeting. Contact us with comments or questions before April 21.

    Daniel – we have questions over here.

    Liz – are there enough electricians in town? Will it be a hardship to find one?

    Len – hmmm.. my guess is there would be.

    Liz – if we don’t we discriminate against people who live in one or two units. The Town’s major purpose is to protect safety of the public.

    Daniel – in my research on this, I was surprised that the Vermont Code is … this is a hole in the code. Some other municipalities have made add-ons. Do we know which have done this kind of addition to their code?

    Len – I’ll get back to you. I’ll get a definite answer.

    Daniel – why? why is this hole in the state rental housing code?Are we going too far by requiring this if it goes past what the state requires for code. I don’t feel that way personally, but just thinking of what it means to go further than state code. I’d like rental housing to be safe, and 50% of residents are in rentals.Many local electricians take pride in doing work to code. I want to make sure we are doing our research on this before going further than the state. The Central St problems were mentioned in the memo. Are there other examples? IT would be good to know for next time.

    Elwell- the short answer is yes.

    Daniel – to what extent is this a problem in the community before we ago against state housing code.

    Ian – I’m also curious why this gap exists. And, the numbers. How many rental units will this affect in Brattleboro

    Len – I can get you that info.

    Elwell – we’ll do a full staff report for the next meeting.

    Tim – some questions have come in… Wendy Levy asks if the Brooks House fire was electrical.

    Len – a staple was too tight into the electrical wire. I can’t tell you who put it in, but that was the cause.

    Tim – from Tony Duncan – any demarcation as to what an electrician is needed? Adding a light fixture?

    Len – that’s a tough question. My concern is one unit has to change out the entire service panel, and doesn’t need someone licensed to do that, so that’s a concern I have. An electrical panel. A light fixture? I did ask the state electrical inspectors about permits. A light switch or picture you don’t need a permit for, so read between the lines there. Having an electrical panel put in, or remodeling is definitely a need for a licensed electrician.

    Tim – lets get that more clarified. I would switch a picture in my home, but hire an electrician for my rentals. I’m uncomfortable repeating questions. Open Meeting Law requires everyone to chime in, but not everyone can see the private chats to me. It might not have been your intention, but I’m conducting an open meeting. My family texts me to say they are out ringing bells. Every night at 8 pm. It’s kind of fun. When I ring our bell I can’t hear the other ones.

  • Ordinance Amendment – Chapter 8, Article 3, Section 8-32, First Reading, Add Requirement for Licensed Electricians

    Tim – every year we go over our rules of conduct.

    Daniel – should we consider an addendum for how to have meetings online? I’m kinda joking, but we don’t have parameters.

    Tim – we want people to use the public chat to raise your hand for a question.

    Daniel – maybe we could add it to the meeting instructions.

    Elwell – I’ll work with Tim on that and add it.

    Liz – I’m happy with the rules as is.

    Ian – a newbie question/comment. I love reading rules. I did find that on section E 2 talking about the agenda and how to get items on the agenda. I had to reread it multiple times to make it clear. No change needed, but it was a section that was a little clunky. The question is – the board, through a majority can agree to put an agenda item on the next agenda, could the public ask us to do it and we’d do it.

    Tim – not traditionally.

    Elwell – it is fair game for a member of the public to speak about any topic. It remains at the discretion of the board as to whether to put it on an agenda. Sometimes it gets added by board members. It is more common over the years that because public participation allow everyone to say what’s on their minds – the board can act on it or not. It isn’t standard to receive an individual comment and it becomes an agenda item.

    Ian – thanks for the clarification. You need to put it in writing before the agenda is set…

    Tim – it does happen that we add things to the next agenda, but more often a discussion changes the request. More information can change the whole direction. A little buffer saves us gobs of time. It’s a little more efficient.

    Elwell – a bit more. Also, it is really common that the board asks for staff to provide additional information to decide if something should be an actual item. We’ll advise the board and the issue-raiser, and sometimes it comes back, sometimes not.

    Daniel – signing warrants.. what is our procedure for that?

    Elwell – it will be done by PDF. We’re still printing checks and doing payroll. When a warrant list is complete, it will get emailed, and an email response will be sufficient for auditors.

    Daniel – I was reminded of the term warrants… people might not know… not warrants for arrest. It’s the checks we sign.

    The rules are accepted as they were last year. Approved virtually!

  • Warrants – Rotation Schedule for Reviewing and Signing

    Tim – warrants! It flows nicely. When we sign warrants… it’s losing all meaning … it is authorizations for expenditures, and we take turns signing the warrants. We have a rotation schedule. A boring bit of board business.

    Daniel – thinking about the future is no longer boring. I’m look at June 8 and anything could happen…

    Tim – you’ll still have to sign warrants… any preferences? I do. I like November and December 31. I’m more likely to be around. I hope we’ll be signing in person by then. I’ll say that and it will happen. April 1?

    Ian – I’ll take the first shift.

    Liz – I’ll do the second shift. Jun- Aug

    Daniel – I want to go and talk to Jan and hang out. Aug – Nov. I plan on being able to go in person.

    Liz – from your lips to god’s ears, as they say in Jersey.

  • Annual Selectboard Appointments – Committees and Boards

    Tim – this is important. Annual appointments to committees and boards. I have some added duties now, so I will step away from Traffic Safety Committee, though I really enjoy it. Anyone?

    Daniel – I’ll do traffic safety.

    Tim – Capital Grant Review Board, two slots. I’ll take one.

    Elwell – meets rarely, in case there is a new capital grant project.

    Ian – I’ll join on that. And another.

    Tim – rental housing improvement loan committee. Anyone?

    Ian – I’ll do this.

    Liz – this and the next might be busy. If Brandie is interested maybe they share those responsibilities.

    Elwell – small biz might be very busy. Not sure that rental housing improvement loan committee will be. That’s for improvements, bot growing a business. It might get less likely landlords can invest in upgrades. The two are different in work expected this year.

    Tim – small business assistance loan committee…

    Liz – I’ll do it.

    Tim – Brandie can’t chime in, but we can adjust things if needed. The Windham Regional Commission…

    Elwell – we have this as a separate WRC agenda item.

    Tim – Windham Solid Waste Management Board of Supervisors. We elected Patrick last year. There can be a board member back-up.

    Daniel – it could be Brandie.

    Liz – didn’t Peter do it in the past?

    Elwell – there have been many configurations. I’m not sure if I was backup this year.

    Liz – my time would be wasted.

    Tim – we shouldn’t draft Brandie, we’ll make Peter the alternate. All board members on the board of abatement, which might get busy this year. And board of civil authority.

    Liz – Ian’s an old hand at that.

    Ian – I was a Justice of the Peace. I encourage the selectboard to be there.

    Tim – you hear that Daniel? Be there!

    Daniel – yea!

    Tim – it is the right thing to do. Any other comments on that? Do we need a formal motion?

    Elwell – no.

    so appointed, virtually

  • Annual Selectboard Appointments - Windham Regional Commission appointments

    Sue Fillion – a planning commission member and I serve and would be happy to continue to serve. I sit on brow fields and coordinating committee. Tom actively attends the full commission hearings. We work well to cover the meetings nd participate. Both happy to serve again.

    Tim – thanks for your service…

    board agrees.

    So moved – Sue Fillion and Tom Mosekowski (sp?) to the WRC as representatives.


    Tim – alright – no last minute brainstorms? We’ve come to the end. Happy Passover, and the Easter Bunny is coming on Friday. A vehicle parade again, with the easter bunny.

    Liz – I’ll be coloring virtual eggs.

    Tim – there is more going on.

    Liz – a bunny hop?

    Tim – no, leading exercise groups as part of the holiday experience.

    Elwell – Rec and Parks is trying to help people stay active and engaged. They offer online gymnastics classes kids can do at home. Times listed in the Daily Updates from the Town.

    Liz – I did read in the news that in New Zealand that the Easter Bunny is an essential service (cg – also the tooth fairy!)

    Daniel it is holy week and all are online. It is a powerful and challenging moment. Virtual passovers – it’s really hard. Church services are virtual. Another wrinkle in this moment and I wish everyone well in this week of holidays.

    Tim – we all support that.


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