The Brattleboro Selectboard continued their month of many meetings with a discussion of potential service reductions in public safety.
It was a long meeting, mostly because the police and fire departments were given hours to speak of the value they provide to the town. After that, the public spoke about how much they valued the police and fire departments. In the end, no changes will happen and the town may end up hiring more fire department staff. To save money.
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Preliminaries
Chair Elizabeth McLoughlin – everyone is welcome. The selctboard is dedicated to the task of re-analyzing the FY26 budget. We are serious. Some may find this frustrating. Let’s try to get through this with the least amount of emotions. I brought a quote – allI can do is engage with complete sincerity then there can be no regret.
Town Manager John Potter – no remarks.
Amanda Ellis – Thurber – Happy earth day. The rotary club is cleaning put the area near the Hinsdale bridge, come out to help if you want this weekend. And Greg Lesch – there is a memorial for him coming up Saturday.
Public
Liz – People may be here to discuss library hours. It isn’t on the agenda tonight and there is noting we can respond to tonight so I’m going to ask if you have library comments speak for only a minute, then come back on Thursday if you have more to say.
Isaac Evans-Frantz – how many people would like to speak about the library? It might be good to hear tonight.
(4-5?)
Liz – let’s hear from the library first.
Amanda – all of us really appreciate the reaching out and emails we have been hearing, so if you can’t talk tonight, your emails and advocacy is heard.
Steven M – Thanks for your service. The library was cut already. We lost Thursday evenings and Saturday evenings. There were battles over that. You are cutting something cut already. And a meta point, but spreadsheets create an illusion. No qualitative sense of what is going on. What you think yo are saving is a cost to the community.
Liz – library comments, come to the front, library comments…
Emily P – I love the library. Cutting these hours means denying service to a certain group of people in town. If you cut hours at night and people work 9-5, they don’t have access to. Parents, mornings, teens without a safe place at home. Elderly. Just think about it.
Marta – Not only is the library going to suffer federal funding but also local? We could lose the entire thing and it is so important to so many people.
Ken – I am a firm supporter of the library, I see all the good things they do. Just the other day we were cutting hours but also about raising out of town prices? That’s odd. Starr has a great group and they do a lot of social stuff. A place for the unhoused to use computers to better themselves.
Neil – Every cut will be difficult. The library cuts will affect the entire community if they happen. The best thing to do will be going across the board so everyone feels it a little bit. We’ll all experience it. A little from everyone makes more sense than a lot from one thing that is loved.
– I’m a young person and can’t afford to purchase things in stores but can go to the library for resources. It is a wonderful place, it hosts wonderful events, and it is free to participate in.
Bethany – tonight is about public safety; cutting hours… you are cutting hours at one of the most welcoming open safe places for kids and teens. The library would have been an awesome place to have this meeting…
Jubilee – the library is a place anyone can go, for the community, and clearly the community is there. You see everyone speaking up for it. They don’t want 30% less time at it.
Abby M – Shout out to all the youth – the most I’ve seen at a selectboard meeting, and it speaks to their passion for the library…
Katie W – One more thing, it will face reductions in federal funding – money through other grants and agencies that will have cuts, even before town money.
Ray – I’m here to share my thoughts as a teen. I’m on the teen advisory board at the library. I want to express my opinion on this. I’m extremely opposed to any budget cuts for library hours. We spoke to you on April 8 and for expansion of hours. To hear you would lessen it is so disappointing. It’s more than books. It is one of the only places we can go after school that is safe, free, warm and parent- approved. Teen space at the library where I go with my friends, but every room there is important and every hour is important – clubs, homeschoolers, – and this has utilities – e-bikes, gardening tools, museum passes – so much that they offer that we’d lose access to.
Liz – thank you very much
Isaac – there is another comment
Amanda – an America 250 planning session at the library tomorrow
Ivan – this is for the youth that showed up. Remember the people on the board and how they vote, and many of you can vote in March, so if you are old enough you can respond to their choices tonight, or in this budget cycle.
Liz – non -public safety comments?
Tim W – We also love the library, but… a quick story and moment of appreciation. 48 hours ago we were biking on the West River Trail and my son went by a poorly controlled dog and it attacked him viciously. It knocked him down and bit him. It was traumatic. I was guilt ridden. I was comforting him and the community rallied around. Someone called Brattleboro Police. We got help back, and two police officers show up. I didn’t know they had been called. I told my son, look the officers are here for you, and he instantly brightened. I didn’t know the officers. They were kind, told him he was brave, took pictures of wounds, and we went to ER. I want to make sure that story got out, so you could hear a nice story, so thanks to the new officers at BPD.
Jackie- That inspired me to tell my story. I work at the Latchis and we have difficult guests and people who come to the theater. We have an ongoing relationship with the police. Today, two Brat team members came I to introduce themselves. They looked great and introduced themselves. Very non threatening and friendly.
Liz – more talk not about safety or library?
Steve Z – the history of Brattleboro, and my observations of how things have evolved. One things…
Liz – is this about public safety?
Steve – no, I see over the years that we have social services attracting people to the area. We didn’t have a lot of people in need, then services. Something to consider.
Kate O – on behalf of the Charter Commission, an announcement. We will make a decision about our form of governing – RTM, open town meeting. We have a survey we’d like everyone to take, and will have two meetings – may 1, and 15 at 6:15 right here. Join in the conversation.
– it is dark downtown and intersections are not lit well. In place of lights there are trees. The don’t help in the dark.
FY26 Budget Re-development
Liz – Possible Service Reductions in Public Safety is the topic. We have experts, then staff, then selectboard and public discussion.
Potter – I’ll give some background. I have several people here to help me, but really I’m also hopeful to highlight some of the innovative and progressive approaches going on in Brattleboro. You can walk around today and not be sad, and instead be proud. In 2022 community members attended meetings regarding public safety downtown. The concerns centered around the Transportation center, break ins, drugs, the downtown deteriorating. There were concerns about youth from Boys & Girls Club and NEYT. In May 2023 the selectboard discussed hiring private security for the parking garage. It helped, but company couldn’t hire and retain staff. Selectboard asked the police department to do a downtown safety action plan, and they came up with an approach. Other partners did a downtown safety fair. Jim Baker did assessments in town and we have worked with him closely ever since. In Sept 2024, the Selectboard heard from the public about the downtown situation again. So the board asked for a downtown safety action plan, and the board funded it in late September. The board knew it was unbudgeted. It was such a concern it had to be addressed immediately so police could start training personnel. They knew it would go to RTM, and pope didn’t like the budget. The focus last year was to do something to get ahed of this summer, summer of 2025, and that is why they acted immediately. Part of all this concern is related to state programs – the motel program – but Asst Chief Evans can give us additional data about calls in town and what the situation is…
Evans and Hardy have a powerpoint presentation of 40 slides!
Evans – we can look at primary trends, and some ways we have been working to minimize chaos. You will see data presented to show trends and activity, not to point fingers at people or state programs. We are looking at this globally. We have good relationships with many of those organizations. Point in Time Count (PIT) is an annual count of this experiencing homelessness. Over 10 years, Windham County has seen a 300% increase. Bennington 153%. Less than Rutland and Chittenden. 452 individuals. The hotel program expanded during COVID and stayed expanded. Calls have gone up for Quality Inn, from 26 in 2015 to 305 in 2024. Some have stayed about the same, others have also seen an increase in(Travelodge, Covered bridge Inn, Econolodge) and 85% of the interactions were with people NOT from Brattleboro. Estimated costs could be close to $600k for police and fire responses to these hotels.
Potter – the State’s Attorney has a letter I’d like to share. “As Windham County’s State’s Attorney… I have a front row seat, the department has improved under Chief Hardy, with innovative and forward looking initiatives, connecting people to services, and people are treated with dignity and respect. Brattleboro is now facing new and growing challenges, and Brattleboro should fully fund the department. The hotel program and violent crime in town… the motel program requires the town to spend resources. It is an unfunded mandate. Police spend a disproportionate amount of time with this program. The town has had no compensation. The arrests cause further burdens to taxpayers. Violent crimes – 6 homicides in the last 6 years. Combatting violent crime should e a top priority for this board. The emergency our community is facing is real. You could turn the tide. S. Brown.” One thing I want to touch on, Mr. Baker and Mr. Allen – with their help we have looked at way to look collaboratively at other service sectors in town to bring down the need for law enforcement in the long run.
Mr. Baker – Jim Baker, for 2.5 years I have consulted for Phil Scott’s public safety enhancement team. Scott wanted ways to impact the increase in violent crime. Vermont used data to drive decisions during the pandemic. I was in charge of the Dept of Corrections. It was the result of data that we dodcn’tlose and staff or incarcerated people. Governor looks dat calls for police service across the state. Most police use the same database, so the state could look at data across the state. 8-10 communities were outliers and Brattleboro was one. In Fall of 202 I stated working to identify communities and to offer resources. To build shared consciousness and individual challenges, and to work with partners. Not easy to do to coordinate. We started working in communities. I started working in Fall of 2023 here. We looked at calls for service, driving fear and sadness. We looked at stat for 2.5 years across the state. the majority of incidents are driven by a small number of people, and many have nothing to do with criminal justice – it is mental health. We looked at resources in the community, and how to get better results. April 2024 we had a symposium, and different organizations spent a day together talking about what was going on and how we could bring resources together. There are a lot of resources here, but not coordinated. It was obvious hat resource were working hard, in their areas of expertise, but not a cross pollination of ideas or knowing about individuals. ONE Brattleboro was a result, a meeting of leaders. Different organizations doing outreach talking together. We also helped better understanding the data and technical assistants. We helped with grant money for social workers with the department, and the expertise of Scott and training. I believe there is a better coordination of resources led by the police department. We’ve engaged leading researchers to validate the work we are doing. The model around doing outreach with a range of resources, not just criminal justice services now.
Potter – Scott has trained all the popes in Brattleboro. I want to say how grateful we are for your support. I can’t say enough about how helpful this is with our huge problem with public safety.
Jim- – folks here are dedicated and looking to get to the root causes of the chaos in the community.
Scott – we had a similar organization in my community outside Boston. I’ve been a detective sergeant. I was a chief of police, and wanted to create a model. Police, people with lived experience, helpers all working together. I helped with program in Plymouth MA, 10 years now. We launched it due to overdoses, but it goes beyond. Like here, and outreach approach. We learned about the situation table. The first was in MA. To connect before overdoses. There are 40 in the US, and Brattleboro has one. I spent time earlier this year for trying – 70 people trained. They didn’t always work together. That’s what the table does – it looks upstream at families and people, and locations. In Plymouth we were funded by the hospital. I’ve done 100 trainings across the country. VT is at the front of the curve. We have tables all over. 4 in VT. The community comes together. It helps individuals before something happens. I was invited in so they could learn more. Brattleboro is at the head of the curve. You are one of the 4 pilot programs in VT. A Public Safety Enhancement Team. We look at frequent calls and look how to get upstream. How can we look at locations with frequent calls to reduce these calls. I’d not just a program, it is a strategic shift in collaboration, data, and early intervention. Homelessness, mental health, substance use are the top issues. Many partners are bringing cases to the Table. Data from about 16 agencies.
Potter – that’s great. We really appreciate everything you are doing. We have to make an investment today to bring things down in the future.
Scott – calls go down when we have this community collaboration. We need to continue to engage with vulnerable. You will see calls go down.
Potter – I’ll invite Chief Hardy to give context around police services. We have 39 services that the police provide, and Chief Hardy will give you more background if you are considering reducing any of these 39 services.
Chief Hardy – I won’t go into the timeline about how we started and how it came about and the plan was developed, and you already spoked about eh people coming to the board, but people were also vocal at my office, and calling my phone. I had to answer so many messages about these sorts of things going on. Not just downtown, but all over town. Downtown took a lot of resources. (She shows slides…part of the 40 mentioned above)). Burglaries are down since 2022 (from 108 to 49 in 2024), theft down (from 698 to 508), and arrests up from 173 to 244. This is due to staffing up. There were 13 police when I got here. Not the 27 we need. We caught someone from NY with 170 bags of fentanyl at the Econolodge. There is a drug dealing problem here, not so much a drug problem. Our population is more than the 12,000 living here. We have a lucrative drug trade. No deterrent for people to leave. They are terrorists and murderers, killing people in the community. There are vicious acts going on. It’s a reality check for some. You have vicious people here hurting people every day, like selling this much drugs. Another out of town person at Quality Inn with oxygen and cocaine. Another at Black Mountain Inn – guns and drugs and an assault – from Hartford CT. Quality Inn – 500 bags of fentanyl and $12k in cash. A local person. Comfort Inn, people from Brattleboro and over 1000 bags of fentanyl , plus gun and cocaine. This is what is going on. We are taking care of everyone in the community. Elliot Street – 1057 bags of fentanyl, 11k cash, gun. Me and my staff would clean up needles around Elliot Street – we don’t take personal property, we take trash. We hold it for two weeks if someone needs it. Outreach teams tell them. People. were shooting up in the Preston Lot. Overdose deaths are starting to go down, OD responses have gone up. Having people helps us to save people by getting them NARCAN.
Justin J. – Community Rescuer Specialist with the police. Lots of lived experience. Project CARE is to reduce the impact of opiate use in Brattleboro. Started in 2017 after 12 overdose in 124 hours. Can’t arrest our way out of this. What can we do to connect people to resources before overdose? Modeled after the PAARI and Plymouth programs. BPD formed a coalition with Retreat, Hospital, Groundworks, etc. We joined PARRI, the pandemic happened, and creates a position – the CRS – and my role was created. Initially we did outreach and followups, etc.. Barriers include transportation, access to treatment, having ID… Today I do outreach, I’m downtown and at motels, I connect with community leaders and businesses and anywhere people congregate. Or help with people with the parking system. I do case management work until connections are more permanently established. I help with Transportation. That’s a priority for me. Overdose followups and IDVs. I participate in the situation table. We spotlight people in recovery to help others. We can do a verified ID card -IDV – to help people get connected to resources, get medications, get GA, or ID at hotels. I’ve done 250 tracked activities, 48 overdose followups, 39 IDV, 14 distant rides, dozens of local rides.
Adam – Justin is amazing. Money well spent. He doesn’t give himself enough credit. When we started he volunteered his time. I was asked to get into community outreach. We saw a statistic early about the reduction in overdose deaths, and that is the result of all these efforts made in town. We have given Narcan 56 times prior to EMS arriving. That’s because of the training they received. All these efforts need to be done in tandem. We need community outreach. We are always at the elementary schools. At all the schools. We have coffee with cop program, and cookie with a cop program at preschools. Toys for Tots, etc. Serving ice cream is apiece of the puzzle – it gives kids a break, and it is a piece of the outreach efforts. Project Care separates those who are victimizing others from other community, from those who clearly need help and assistance. You need multiple resources. That’s why we have the team, and we’ve had some real successes.
Potter – thanks I appreciate all of this, just little glimpse at the services of the police department. We could break then pick up after the break…
Liz – great – the fire testimony will be next, the public comments and selectboard comments.
Continuing
Potter – I have invited the Fired Department in case you have questions about the 30 services they provide. Their call volume has been increasing.
Symonds – we din’t come with powerpoint, we have numbers. You think of fire fighting and EMS, but we also do classes and community engagement, and we want to do more education to prevent fires, and everyone should know CPR. Public education is huge. In total, this FY, our employees have worked 75k hours, and about 59 hours per week. 4, 558 calls… an increase. 380 calls per month. This year it is 401 per month. When we look at budgets, they look big, but if you look at South Burlington – 5.8 million budget for a similar program. Your fire department is as lean and effect as we can. Where I came from, 2.5 million for half the program. We are running at a tight budget. The overtime budget… that’s come up… 61% of the overtime budget is filling vacancies – from time off, training, or actual vacancies. call backs – 7% of overtime to make sure things are covered. Community service is about 1% of the overtime budget. Mostly done on short. Training is 2% of the overtime budget, and regular overtime every week.
Asst Chief – the increase in call volumes mostly comes from the same data points the police showed you. Other things – the intensity of the calls are more significant in nature. Incidents are more complex or intense.
Potter – thank you both. The purpose tonight is to look for possible changes to the budget (8:15 pm) and one challenge is overtime if you want to explore that, or if you want to find reductions if you want to do that tonight.
Liz – we should hear if this is a solution to the overtime issue.
Chief Symonds – it is mostly for wellness days plus vacation time and sick time. So instead of 56 hours a week they work 52 hours. If we hired three more employees – $292k, and that would reduce overtime by $500k. We wouldn’t have to call people in and would save over $500k in overtime. There is a minimum firefighter clause – we have to have 8 in the firehouse ready for calls. Adding three means we won’t drop below that as frequently.
Liz – can you repeat the cost savings again?
Chief – let me get my calculator. (Punch punch punch…. equals…). These numbers come from human resources. $443,898.75 in savings.
Liz – that is the net savings?
Chief – yes.. no, that is the reduction in overtime costs. You’d take out the cost of the hires… (punch punch). $151,823.41 after that.
Oscar Heller – the conversation could make the overtime go up.
Liz – but the own manager is having this conversation with staff. You can place it in context in the revised budget.
Potter – if you want. The thing is, overtime is often covered by the staff salary line, and they’ve had some savings that would go to overtime.
Chief – I want to verify our staff budget line is completely correct. I’m not currently confident…
Potter – there are some updates that need to be made that I’ll bring Thursday.
Liz – let’s start with the public….
Oscar – might it be more productive is we as a board discuss any big changes we want to pose. If we have no fire changes, the conversation would be much shorter. They may make different comments if things are looking one way or another.
Liz – ok, anyone?
Isaac – I’m glad you said you aren’t sure and will get back to us. That gives me confidence and thanks for that work you are doing.
Amanda – climate change, we’ve had forest fires. I see no cuts to the fire department with increasing threats.
Oscar – things look to me like you could use more resources. I propose no cuts. My questions are things we are looking at – the overtime line. There could be a longer discussion a for next year. But for this year, no changes.
Liz – should they look into the overtime line? Now?
Amanda – sound complicated with our timeline.
Liz – up to John if it is in the budget.
Potter – if you want it I could add it in…
Peter case – I understand, to a math layman, the idea of hiring three additional firefighters to offset overtime.
Chief – 2.16% in overtime cost.
Peter – costs more, so on that level it makes a bunch of sense. I wouldn’t mind lookin at it.
Liz – great, anyone else?
Oscar – ok,
Liz – it is a can of worms that needs to be addressed.
Peter – if we hire three more, it will really mitigate that?
Chief – we’d keep the 8 minimum clause, to eliminate or reduce overtime except for callbacks. ($36k)
Peter – makes sense to me.
Liz – great – any more comments by board members.. Public?
Public comment
Megan – through our mutual aid contract, FD provides paramedic services in cases of mutual aid?
Chief – to other towns?
Asst Chief – haven’t been asked to do it.
Liz – ask all questions at once.
Megan – as much as I can anticipate the answers…. will hiring three new fire personnel affect the number of paramedics or EMS?
Chief – we hope in increases the availability. Wow hope more paramedics apply. We’d hope to increase the number we have.
Heidi – in the handouts for the meeting, I have a bunch of things I don’t understand, and with the three new staff does that include benefits (yes). Page 8 – the chart with the lower revenue estimate for FY25, and expenses, and comparing that to what Rescue would cost the town… then the chart below, but those numbers don’t match, and on the next page the top line has a range… these numbers don’t seem to jive and don’t understand where some of these are coming from. The memorandum from the Chief – I see no overtime or benefits listed. I think what you are showing of costs and benefits aren’t accurate. Nothing is adding up her for me, and others agree. And the other thought for overtime, but as a nurse, we do per diem. No benefits but an hourly salary.
Chief – the numbers on the bottom of page 8 I did… that box I did. That was based on the contract proposal from Rescue Inc. I didn’t dig into the box above it. The cost of providing EMS did include benefits but not overtime costs. I don’t know how you’d break out overtime for EMS. I cold look at how many times three ambulances were out of the station, so it would be a cost…
Potter – Table 1 at the top. That was the table staff put together in Sept 2023, with a low revenue future, these were the predicted expenses and the municipal expense would be $245k at that time, but really it is $105k now. We are performing better than we expected than from 2023.
Liz – Heidi wrap it up…
Chief – the low range high range is the number of hours an employee does a task. You could take the cost number out and show hours spent on a task. 90% of call volume is EMS, so you can use that.
Liz – this table is an exercise that the town manager put together to identify a cost for each service, so we can decide if any service could be eliminated, it isn’t comparative to other charts about overall numbers. Next person…
Bob O – I shared this before but I want to thank the Chief for the presentation for the EMS costs against the $258k to be spent on Rescue In, but I take issue with he 454k figure for Rescue Inc. That number comes from a divisive process requiring Rescue to provide a security bond. The artificially inflated number just brings it up again and doesn’t help to mend the relationship.
Chief – I want to repair the relationship with Rescue Inc. Currently there is no relationship. We could be working together. I have every interest in repairing that relationship. I hop to tell you soon that Rescue can help us out. More to come on that. It’s a hope. When I first put the numbers together , I wasn’t here, so I went back to the 2023 proposal. When I looked at increase over previous years, I guessed at what the increase would be – about 5% was my guess. The proposal looked at the costs laid out over the years 2024-2027. Just tried to give you facts.
Potter – I’d add to that. There was performance bind that the town asked for, about $22k worth of the total. A very small component. It’s not s stupid thing for a municipality to require. It didn’t affect the proposal much. The big thing was the decision to use Keene dispatch instead of Brattleboro dispatch. That was their choice. They had other options but they chose that at the time.
David – I appreciate Mr Potter has analytical work he has to do, but the finance committee made the observation that they wanted to look at adding staff more than relying on overtime. I’d encourage the board to ask him to do that work.
Degray – I’d like the Chief to go back and look at year’s prior to us being EMS and look at overtime line items. I don’t think they are anything near what we have now that we are doing EMS. Three additional staff will have an impact on revenue coming in. Not sure if hiring more will have a good impact on revenue line item.
Liz – thanks, I’ll ask that those answers be incorporated in the budget for Thursday. I’ll move on…
Carol – Is it possible to do per diem?
Liz – we’ll tell you on Thursday. We’ll move on to police…
Oscar – to those whose heads may be exploding at adding three more positions, we won’t take that lightly.
Tom – Fire Department is doing great. Pretty startling information about the challenges faced by the town, and it isn’t homegrown crime. Great improvements are being made so I support what the police are doing.
Potter – want to dismiss he fire chiefs…
Isaac – it may be easy. On page 10 it talks about maintaining boxes around town. Explain?
Chief – Knox box keys – a universal key to open a box with building keys – to help in emergencies.
Liz – okay dismissed. Hardy and Evans, come up to the table?
Ken – First, a mention of a couple of articles in the paper 15 years ago, there were murders, darkness of poverty and drugs in 2011.
Liz – a solution or an opinion about the budget?
Ken – I’ve mentioned I’d love to help volunteer to help downtown. Others, too. Maybe next budget.
Liz – you’d like to volunteer instead of trained police?
Ken – for people afraid to walk down the street, I would walk with them. I’ve done it before. It was uneventful, so yes, with a group of people. I want to help people, and I am frugal. There might be others that way as well.
Amanda – a citizen wants to help…
Chief Hardy – others have come and told us they want to help. It depends on what the help is. Think about what you’d do if you did have a situation and you had to protect the other person. Think of your safety. We have been having meetings, maybe not in a protective way, but to help.
Elizabeth, Windham and Windsor Housing Trust – I speak in favor of full funding for the Brattleboro Police. I was going to talk about things discussed tonight, but you’ve heard it. You can’t innovate without capacity. We heard inspiring strategies. The only reason it has been planned and launched is because of capacity. We saw people victimized on our properties. We saw her build her team and start to have impact, don’t turn the clock back. All the money and capacity would be wasted. Part of the capacity not discussed is detailed conversation the police have with housing providers. We meet every month to address issues on our properties. Our discussions involve everything we could do to fix a sketchy hallway. We put up cameras, etc. It was all of us working together to solve a problem. Not the time to turn back the clock. Full funding!
Robin – I wanted to offer more context. The conversations about community safety didn’t start in 2022. People were showing top years and years before it. Only one person on the board was there in 202 when people wanted to talk about it. We wanted to create safety – a holistic point of view, but the recommendations didn’t get taken up. In tandem, other things got worse and more problems emerged. Things we are discussing can’t prevent addiction, or solve the housing crisis. The board needs to also recognize that during the meetings last fall, other showed up to talk about those solutions as well. Asking to support organizations rather than the police. We heard that this is a public health issue. It’s a small number of people falling through the cracks, so apart from that, specific to a budget, as a member of the school board, Needs are really high and costs are going up, so how do you manage that without creating a burden on taxpayers. In schools, we would not hire new positions not filled yet. The improvements in the data… even with he staff we have now, they are making a difference according tot he data they presented. lessens he burden on taxpayers.
George – HCRS – I applaud the town and pixie collaborations, ONE Brattleboro, Stephen Brown’s comments were articulate. We are in favor of BRAT. We are not here to arrest our way out of this. People’s lives are complicated. t the situation table it is all sorts of things they need and finding creative solutions. the BRAT team is doing a great job, connecting people to social services and health services. It is poverty, housing, and social determinants. At The Works, there were gatherings to talk about the challenges we are facing. Collectively we can make it work. We support the BRAT team and our goal is to over time we can shift things and focus on community and belonging and commitment.
Christine – BHP – I’m part of ONE Brattleboro. As someone who has worked in human services for a long time, I have been first hand witness that when things go wrong you call first responders when people are having a really difficult time. FD or Police. They are the only ones who show up. It is what happens. So hey are engaging with service agencies and doing the work thoughtfully.Thinking of the needs of the people and engaging with human service agencies. The situation table is useful weekly. We have come so far. Police now help bring in extra resources, social workers, etc. They step away. We need to support them to see the benefit.
Oscar – should we say what we feel so the public has more to bounce off of?
Liz – let’s tick to asking to the public to keep it budget related.
Abby – I want to say that I found the intro to this meeting so wildly offensive. No other department was invited to do a 1 hour powerpoint on how critical they were. Starr was denied the opportunity to discuss budget cuts at the last meeting. Not equal Opportunities. for departments. This was an hour of propaganda and fear mongering. Every department should be treated the same. We were presented on side of the story. I value their work. I agree to hold things to FY25. We won’t get to the cuts we want by cutting children’s books. We need to look at vacancies and values that the town has.
Deena – I fully support the police department. I met Justin in the hallway. He is driving up to Burlington ion his own time to find my brother. MY brother is has substance use issues. It’s hard to speak about. The Bratt police and care team are doing amazing things. They are actually helping people to get better so we can have the things we want for the community. Without we have nothing. Don’t cut a dime.
Randy – we don’t need to cut anything. I do agree that it would be great to have each department present. We all have different values. I want to see everyone’s decision. One thing on revenue – is there any risk assessment for the hotels. Is there a way to say if they aren’t working with us we assess a risk fee? $600k is a lot of money. WE donate to help out. The Quality Inn is hell. When they are done taking the state’s money they’ll sell it. How can we get some money from them.
Potter – that was one of the reasons’s the last board passed the acceptable conduct ordinance… it would have allowed it but RTM decided they didn’t like it so we have no leverage over it. because RTM didn’t want us to have that ability, we pivoted to work with he state to use their contracts to get better enforcement and management of the motels. We’ve had success in two of them with reducing incidents. Wow talked about the local option tax – and how the state takes a big cut. if some of that could stay it would rally help out. Legislators are discussing it but are leaning touted less of a shift than we would like, but some progress being made.
Liz – one thing we want to do is to talk to them so they understand this issue. They don’t understand the impact on the community.
Randy – let’s rewrite the ordinance without the parts that irritated people.
Chief Hardy – when I presented what we are dealing with, I thought we would all talk about our departments, but when I hear fear mongering and propaganda I take offense at that. The victims of the crimes and assaults…I’ve stood in people’s blood. That’s very unfair. We have nothing to gain by being bigger or smaller. When you say propaganda and fear mongering, I disagree and don’t’ disrespect, but these are real people I talk to all the time.
Greg W – I am in full support of the police and fire budget. I’ve been downtown 40 years and seen rises and falls and all sort of activity and the last .. since the Chief has been here we have gone in good direction. people aren’t coming downtown because they don’t feel comfortable. This presentation is shifting tea. Downtown has to survive for the town to survive. Taxes would really go up if the downtown disappears.
Leona – Probations – this is my first selectboard meeting. One thing I want to mention. I am a part of ONE Brattleboro and am excited to be a part of it, and part of the Situation Table. In Probation and parole, we are seeing the effect of the BRAT team. We get notifications about when there is contact with a police officer, for help, taken for services. they are being helped. Not just being in trouble. It’s not just about putting people in distress into jail. It’s about seeing a need and I am so proud of everyone working on this, meeting them when they need help. We see you have a need and we have the resources to help you out. I am so thankful for the BPD and Justin. He’s a resource when we have someone in distress.
Fallon – I’ve never come to one and don’t do well public speaking. I’m in favor. The library discussion was about safe spaces. I’ve seen the decline and change in town. All the work they are doing for the drug problem… that is not going away anytime soon. I love services coming together, but we still need them to help with that and to just do their job. People who want to take funds away, and hey are dealing with drugs and your mom has a heart attack you might think differently.
Nicole -Twice Upon A Time – my family has been here 38 years. The Chief;’s plan makes me feel safer, like someone has our back. Businesses are struggling and it is just getting worse. We are on a precipice. I don’t know what will happen downtown. Brattleboro wants to help everyone, and the Chief has done an amazing job of meeting the needs of people who need help and people who need punishment. They have my back. To pick up hundreds of needles in the alleyway. It’s a battle. I’m doing my best. Full support of the police and fighting this head on.
Penelope – I also have a retail store. I don’t want to cut any of these departments, including the library, which is a symbol of our democracy and desire to learn. One thing that stands out – 85% of the calls to the police have been for out of towers. There is a connection between the motel program and people coming from outside of town. Also maybe the amount of drugs coming. The state has a responsibility to come to our aid and I don’t know why we are struggling to sort out our budget when we are helping the state with their housing and drug problems. I’d write to Governor Scott and say you have a responsibility to help us out. Business has been too bad. It has been improved since you organized this. I feel a big difference, not in shopping, but in town. My idea is we need to go toMontpelier and complain about what we need to cut to deal with their problem.
Liz – my goal last year was to get revenue sharing and I recommend we all write…
Sue – I support the public safety budget. Years ago cars were getting broken into; it happened to us. My daughter had an ATM card stolen. We can have compassion and accountability. Tonight’s discussion shows we can do that. I work for the agency that runs the motel program. The blame game isn’t going to do it. Holding people accountable is fine. Compassionate accountability is phrase I learned from Justin. So, full support. Police and services aren’t mutually exclusive.
Carol – I want to express my gratitude for all the agencies. I have witnessed interactions, firsthand, and loved how the police are trained not only to arrest but to see if they can settle it down. I live where our block was overcome with drug dealers. The FD saved us. There is no easy answer. Go easy, be gentle with each other. This is really tough.
Marta – I want to say a lot of the speakers now and throughout the year makes it a zero sum game – a dystopian hellscape or a fine place. The truth is in the middle. I walk home late at night to my place downtown and never felt scared. I have had a car break in, and helped the neighborhood to get rid of a drug dealer. This rhetoric… I don’t recognize the Brattleboro. in some of these scaremongers stories. I walk downtown all the time. Much of the stores are full. Maybe sales aren’t due to crime so much as economics. I used to shop downtown all the time. I can no longer afford it…Brilliance, Boomerang… I wish people would come into the middle. It’s not all bad or all good. Keep it to the middle. I have been talking to legislators. Join in with me to be a citizen advocate.
Heidi – I support all these efforts, but in the interest of the budget, I have a question about the numbers. On page 5, the 6th item – collaborate police services and 10th – and 14th – collaborate… and 6th – they add up to $565k all related to mental health issues. Is there any redundancy in those line items?
Isaac – could those be repeated> (yes)
Melissa – thanks to Chief Hardy and everybody who came to support the police and fire. You weren’t fear mongering me. You took that off the streets. If that made it to the streets, that’s not pretty. When it hits your family it is ugly. I have a checkered past and I can’t tell you how many funerals I’ve been to. Keep getting it off the street. I hope you get full support.
Mel – I am here to ask a question – I’m 24 and have been here 2 years. I’ve been trying to get involved. My point – for someone with little context. The only cuts would possibly be the open positions. I’ve heard in the finance committee – are the open spaces actively in the academy? We are looking at attrition. Are the remainder in the academy? I echo the idea of a less controversial ordinance to deal with motel risk fees.
Liz – the committee – you are focused on reducing the budget?
Mel – yea, maybe, a grey area. I’d say the finance committee might echo what the previous member has said. I don’t represent everyone. I’m new. A lot of things in the budget are set in stone. It’s the structural integrity of the budget. Solid waste and unfilled potions are the only big things, and no one will want to get rich of solid waste… so I’m focused on those.
Chief Hardy – still trying to answer Heidi, but Mel I applaud you for getting involved. The number of unfilled positions. We have 29 officers – we hire them and send them to the academy. There is one unfilled and a Bratt…
Mel – I would say there may be some sentiment to look at that one uncommitted role.
Starr – Library – One Brattleboro – I appreciate Bratt PD and the professionalism in their responses to heightened situations. Embedded social workers have been invaluable. Brat has been remarkably effective. I have seen them work magic. A patient with an extreme reaction, and Justin calmed him down. A senior citizen missed the bus and the Bratt provided a ride home. A myriad of circumstances for public safety that doesn’t need to be law enforcement. They are a comfort to the people in the library worrying about these folks. The library continue downtown but we don’t do it alone. It is a piece of the solution. EMS has been fabulous helping us when people overdose in the restrooms. I also want to say, every first Saturday we have a legislator’s forum so come and talk to them.
Oscar – the fire chief got to hear that…
Chief Hardy – for Heidi, I’d like to speak with Potter before I answer.
Liz – lets; go to zoom
Isaac – can we have a recess?
Liz – at 10 pm.
ASL goes away at 10pm.
Heddy – I wanti o thank everyone for data and statistics. Good to stay objective and unemotional. The presentation supports the positive changes that our neighbors all see downtown. We do not support any cuts to police expenses or downtown safety action. Is the data and statistics posted for anyone to see?
Potter – we can put that up online.
Gemma – what I see is people who have a vested interest. The police got the largest increase in discretionary spending – 17.9% increase. $517k. That alone is 24% of the overall budget. I know how victims of crime feel It is frightening and frustrating. Increases in the number of calls and increases of arrests are not an increase in crime. Courts determine that. The presentations tonight are biased toward people who want a desired outcome. We are all being asked to do more with less. We can’t indulge our worst fears and dramatically raise protest taxes. This is one of the only places to make cuts. It must be cut, no matter how necessary people. I just want a smaller than 17% increase. If we don’t want to raise property taxes, then we must start where the largest increases were added.
Steve – I support the police. If we can’t get people to come back downtown, with business and their tax revenue. If crime takes hold… we must fund the critical role of government – safety. We can’t go down the route of giving in to crime. I think our progressive approach is good. I take issue with the idea that safety accrues to landowners.
Fhar – earlier on I heard comments of the great work being done. The core function is policing. The social services provided by the police are the function of human service agencies. They call the police because agencies can’t respond. if that is accurate, if they got funded like the police, they would show up just as quickly with better training and without the extra expenses. It might not be resolved in this budget but it is time for a rethink about how these necessary services are funded. No one wants to talk about the community safety reviews hundreds of pages. I urge you to hold off on that one vacancy.
Shela – I had a few comments and questions. In the safety plan, is one reason is we didn’t see the safety plan of Chief Hardy? I can appreciate some, but before the final proposal were shown it and allowed to weigh in on it? I have a question about who decides who goes out on a call? Who decides? I’ve been in situations where everybody shows up and wonder why that happens. Sometimes I’ve requested specifically for the police NOT to come. They talked about the number of calls they respond to. Is there a policy or something that explains how you decide who comes? Why are police coming when it is a safety matter? Also, people being located unwillingly. I heard some pool talking about the motel program and the state helpings us… I heard the negative about “not in our town” – people complaining about the motel program, where do suggest they should be. Yes we need state resources. Not sure the narrative was to par with he values… it sounded like”but not in my town…” And I wanted to remind you about the 85% not form our communities… people are relocating due to ack of housing. How does the town create more positions rather than support others doing the work..
Liz – ok ..
Shela – how they get placed in the police department rather than in other human resource agencies that get collaborated with. but I’m being cut off and have more questions…
Liz – ok, there is a three minute limit. I won’t allow the question about human services it isn’t germane. Dispatch?
Hardy – how we decide? Life safety is top priority. If you call dispatch, we don’t know what is going on at the other end of the line. We go and make sure that things are as they are. Can’t take everything at face value. It may not be a safe situation. Domestic violence, or a line left open – case by case basis is how we decide, erring on the side of safety, then we pull back resources we don’t need.
Liz – a 5 minute break…
10:22 and there's still more...
Liz – I’m sure we are all eager to hear Mr Degray.
Degray – we all need a break. We still have three and a half hours to go to break the record of 1:30 in the morning. I want to recommend you keep talking to representatives. Go take a trip to go meet with the governor. I did it with our boat and others did, too. As for Mr. Baker, I was disappointed that he knows of the issue and didn’t recommend any funding when he had the Governor’s ear. Disillusioned where this is all going – no cuts to library, not cuts to fire. RTM should have given you some direction and a number, but the board hasn’t come up with a percentage cut, or no number. Not having a number is like making kitchen sink soup – no idea what number you want to get to, but you refunded the arts initiative. Biut it is looking like you may go back with a 12% budget. But not picking a number for us to argue about has been a disservice to the taxpayers, and this process hasn’t served us very well.
John – I want to come out in favor of no cus to police or fire, but also point out that I shared some information of the cost of the motel program. Most are decent people, but a lot are not according to data. With 2% of the population, we house 14% of the motel program. Burlington has 35% of the population and housing 21%. It isn’t fair for resident of the program to be shipped down here from Burlington away from family and support, and no way to get back to them. We are housing kore people than in other communities in the state. Charter a bus and bring the…
(no audio on Facebook and YouTube…)(another reason for me!)
John – so we are housing 14% of the total program. We should not only get compensated, but we should visit with the governor and legislature.
Liz – the board…
police answer – we have a number for you – all the collaboration, assisting – there are percentages from all our forward facing staff – animal control, police, etc. All do some of those functions, so it isn’t just in one person. Then the coordinating – that’s a breakdown between supervisors overseeing the functions, or dispatch coordinates triage.
Liz – board, but maybe we should have a motion.
Peter – motion to incorporate estimates for reductions for police and fire… if we have any….
Liz – that’s the discussion.
Isaac – thanks for the time, for the public, the people online, and staff. First point. We have a majority of us expressing an interest looking at three new personnel to save $100k in overtime expenses. I appreciate the vulnerability and thoughtfulness, the appreciation of staff, and the tone is different than last fall. I want to thank the police for their service and collaborative approach and focus on drug trafficking as a source of much of our problems. I’ve experience violence when I was a child growing up here and people supported me. All the people made the difference, so I have appreciation for the role each of us plays in creating a safe community. I have several questions. Not proposed cuts, but answers would help us weigh options. I also want to start with confirming that here is a 17% increase… I’m looking at a number from RTM that shows $3 million – a 19.9 % increase. That’s still what we are looking at right now? Page 124 of the town report.
Potter – no, the budget I will bring back will be different Han that….
Isaac – what are the changes?
Potter -so, for example, two meetings ago you reduced some police expenses by $5,500. And you are relooking at all numbers because we made some staffing errors and overtime, so it will be different.
Isaac – when I did a ride along with the police, one thing we did was water on RT 30 to look for a potential speed check. Is that in this packet that we received? What is the dollar cost of the traffic control… speed checks?
Chief Hardy – not sure if it is in the packet. Directed patrols for areas we had trouble/complaints with, maybe? We did put that money in there – up to $270k
Potter – 3rd line on page 5.
Isaac – that would be a useful breakdown to have. Specifically traffic speed patrols.
Chief – not sure if we can do that. It might be an assignment at a time. I’ll see if we can break that down. We have speed control, traffic control, officer initiated….
Potter – we are trying to have a budget by Thursday night… that gives me three or four hours tomorrow to work on the draft budget. If three want to see police reductions I want to know, or work on all the issues I have to pull totter by Thursday.
Oscar – I’d be interested in understanding the operational implications of not hiring the 30th officer. It would be valuable, but in this moment… if it is operationally devastating, it would be good to know.
Chief – can we answer that Thursday? I’d like to look at the organizational schedule, and we already made the commitment…
Oscar – I thought… it sounded like we 26 hired, 3 in academy,
Potter – and 1 submitted for the summer academy.
Chief – That’s why aI was confused. We are committed to the 30th person. We can’t do a background check unless we offer a position…
Isaac – I was also interested in this question. When was that offer made?
Chief – don’t want to give the wrong date…
Potter – it was for October – for the Winter academy but they had to postpone it to summer.
Isaac – the $440k+ spread out over many officers – it says that Project CARE initiatives – that’s a range of activities. can you give a ballpark of what percentage is Project CARE?
Chief – don’t know but can tell you Thursday.
Isaac – do other agencies in ONE Brattleboro receive town funds for participation?
Potter – no, not for that purpose.
Isaac – people said tonight things are getting better and the BRatt Officers, and there is hope around that. Who is currently supporting those Bratt officers?
Chief – we’v been carrying it by what we want to do. We break up assignments so officers can be downtown as backup. We can’t have them alone. We need a level 3 officer nearby for their protection.
Isaac – final question – the motel program. When I was at Econolodge, I didn’t…. with SIT and people losing shelter, I didn’t see any town personnel at the Econolodge. Did town personnel show up and is there a plan for July 1st.
Potter – not sure if anyone called for help but if they did we would’ve responded.
Isaac – if there were Brattleboro residents losing shelter in distress… on July 1. If we are investing in emergency services and we know residents are going to experience an emergency, unfair to us, but I have a moral obligation to my neighbors – and of our town – will our town show up with the volunteers?
Chief – absolutely. This is the third time that the hotels were about to end. We will be there for them. What we will not see – you may not see uniformed officers. We don’t want them to think we are helping them be kicked out of heir homes. We don’t go unless there is a caller help. But the Bratt team can only there. We do try a kinder gentler approach. If someone has no place to go, we coordinate with Groundworks or others. We are not in the habit of evicting people. We don’t do that.
Liz – if you have motel questions call Sue Graff
Isaac – this is a budget item. I think we should have a community conversation about the motel program and its impact. Before July 1 about what we are doing and how we are preparing. One more point. About the process – two people Abby and Randy both wanted to hear from other department heads. For those still listening, we decided to prioritize hearing from areas where we have the biggest increases – trash, police and safety. That’s why it isn’t every department director tonight. The library cuts was one member’s idea. WWe should hear from Starr about potential cuts.
Liz – let’s wait til Thursday.
Peter – not cutting anything. We should look at adding staff to save overtime.. It’s almost 11.
Amanda – (mic not on…) Our emergency service folks walk the walk, and managers that coordinate the care manage them 24-7. Thanks for walking the walk and thanks for… we are talking vicarious trauma in the community. It is complex and real. We can’t get high and might. We say thank you and we support you. No change for the public safety plan. Undecided on overtime.
Oscar – thanks for everyone still here. It is fair to say that I would have done this plan in a smaller way at the time. It is different to change midstream. don’t want to push for any changes. The big item for me, we will get a corrected budget with new numbers and this whole conversation might take a tun on Thursday. Some cost may go up in the budget. A lot of what I feel may change on Thursday. We ned to look at additional hires in exchange for overtime for fire.
Liz – some have said the climate emergency is slow rolling and I compare public safety to a similar slow rolling emergency that many choose not to acknowledge, and not acknowledging it is at our peril. It works with social service agencies, full of deescalation and respect. I believe this is the solution to the emergency. John Potter put the plan together. Progress in our town can happen without the downtown safety plan and full staffing. Need to talk to the Governor about the motel program, can’t move on until this is off our doorstep. I took an oath to protect the town and all in it, and safety is our number one priority. I won’t vote to curtail the plan. I support them.
(sleepy dog view by BCTV!)
no changes…
Isaac – I asked questions and didn’t share my perspective. I’d like to read three short pieces from letter to the editor – the 12% municipal budget increase – “cut an employee in each department, hiring freeze, and let numbers drop by attrition, which would cut the tax increase by half. Staff is great and can make recommendation…” I think that is what is happening. I see here the need for each department to give something. We have major departments – police , fire, DPW, Library, Rec & Parks – there are ways to reduce budget in a meaningful way. The fire department had an idea to save $100k. WE don’t know what traffic speed traps costs. can we do more than $5500 in an almost 20% increase. I am moved by the stories and impressed by what you’ve done. Thank you, and where can here be give. I voted the other night against cutting more from the police for uniforms. But where else might there be some savings. If you are able to come up with tonight or bring Thursday that would be great.
Liz – others have said look for savings don’t touch police or DPW. WE gave our recommendations. You are the only one still looking for police department savings.
Potter – every department brought something to the table. What we need to know are if there are additional services you want to reduce in the budget. Wow need to know what they are.
Isaac – there are real risks for us cutting positions just hired, but would like us to explore in earnest how we can manage expenses moving forward and may be opportunities that don’t require laying off but could reduce overall costs. personnel are out biggest expenses. I don’t see much room for making Cust. I haven[t heard much from any departments about things not personnel related.
Amanda – we did that at our lats meeting – we did recommend some cuts, and we’ll see what they look like on Thursday. Let’s move on and go home and I move to adjourn.
Isaac – we need some clarity – we did look at there things…
Peter – do you have cuts to propose? Make the suggestion?
Isaac – lower the tone a bit.
Isaac walks out. Peter says he won’t vote.
Peter reads motion to not make any changes. And to look at firefighter overtime savings.
Oscar leaves to go find Isaac.
The remaining board sits in silence.
This is the most awkward moment I’ve seen a board go through in quite a while.
Liz calls a five minute recess.
Liz and Amanda go off mic to discuss something.
11:17 pm
Liz – we are back. Peter’s motion…
Peter reads motion again.
Isaac glares, politely.
There are questions. Liz reads Pete’s motion again.
Isaac – so we aren’t going to discuss the motion? There was emotion to adjourn after this…
Liz – we discussed it all evening
4-1 (Isaac)
Motion to adjourn
5-0.
Wow. 11:20pm. Not nearly the record, but wow.
I never thought I'd say it, but good for Fish
He’s not my favorite, but after about 5 hours, it’s pretty easy to understand his frustration with Isaac’s word-salad. Isaac comes out of the NGO-industrial-complex, where that manner of speaking is the norm, but it’s very off-putting to civilians.
I just went through all of Isaac's comments - "word-salad" certainly doesn't come to mind
He makes about two dozen comments, only a few are a paragraph long and they’re cogent.
What exactly is your issue with Isaac? The charge of mismannered NGOspeak is not evidenced in this transcript.
Just listen to him
These transcripts – while an invaluable public service – are condensed and approximate.