Selectboard Meeting Notes – Former Chair Decides Now Is Time To Reveal Longstanding Fire-Rescue Relationship Issues

sb sept 7

Well, well, well. The Brattleboro Selectboard has decided at the last moment that it would be good for them to explain to the public all the secret EMS BFD Rescue relationship information they have known about, information the public has asked them about for over a year and half and the board has remained steadily tight-lipped about. Until now.

Former Chair Liz McLoughlin cracked and said she wouldn’t let Rescue, Inc. control the narrative anymore, and that she wanted a meeting to reveal everything the board knows that the public has been kept in the dark about by her and her fellow board members. Chair Ian Goodnow warned the board that the town attorney told them they should not discuss these secrets with the public, but they voted to hold a special meeting anyway. The plan is to let the public know all the reasons that Rescue and BFD don’t get along.

This throws the public forum and decision-making meeting dates into question.

Comments | 11

  • Preliminaries

    Will they start late? Yes, yes they will. : )


    Chair Ian Goodnow – everyone have seats? Turn the TV on? We are good to go. I will reconvene the meeting we continued from Tuesday night. BCTV tech issues.. we decided to recess and start again today. Tech issues are resolved. I like BCTV and appreciate them. I want to point out there is a modified memo for agenda 8b, subsection iii… it’s at the table there, and is on the website. With that…we were in the middle of Franz’s comments…

    Franz Reichsman – I have a couple of things. On Tuesday I’m glad you mentioned Stu Thurber. Others could say more about his contributions, but we are so lucky to have Lilac Ridge in this town, and how much their family meant to mine up at Ames Hill. Stu’s father and mother were there, and we got Stu and Beverly, and their children are running the place. Well established and have created a working farm with cows, flowers, etc. Innovation and tradition. Here’s to you Stewart. Long may they proser on Ames Hill. #2. Everyone who has written to the website, thanks for sharing and I’ve read them all and that is not enough. I want more. I am announcing the return of office hours at The wWorks… come and talk with me.. There and at the Library. Those are your opportunities. Lots of people don’t have all the information. We can firm up our opinions of where we go from here.

    Daniel Quipp – I want to say it now, thank to the police and law enforcement in high profile raids on drug houses that have had an impact. There is more activity in town to be impacted an the police are working really well to impact that. Thank you and more to come.

  • Public Participation

    Ian – you can speak to things not on the agenda, or request the board pull something from the consent agenda. With that, raise you hand if you want to speak. I ask that you keep comments to 3 minutes. Say your name and where you are from.

    Dick Degray – a couple of things – the Sept 12 meeting – that isn’t a warned selectboard meeting? Why not? Everything we heard was that you’d hear from the public. Not a good idea. Reconsider it. hear from the public. Second. The crime downtown, the shoplifting, ask the State Attorney and state delegation to come in October to a meeting to discuss habitual offenders. It would be a great civics lessons. The public and businesses have questions. One offender is a habitual drug user and the kid steals to feed his habit. He needs help to get off drugs. It would be great if you do this.

    Tim Kipp – I’ve bee a resident nearly 50 years. Working on getting rid of a drug house on Linden St, working with Bratt PD, and the chief may talk about that today.

    Ian – I’m counting that intro against your 3 min.

    Tim – there is a proliferation of drug houses. I’m on a steering committee to cause good trouble. I’m representing 50 on our mailing list. Thanks to the Bratt PD for being very collaborative with our community group. They have been more responsive than any other officials I’ve worked with before. There are many victims and it is a complex problem. They have a serious impact on town. We hope the growing problem will become a top priority for the selectboard. It is difficult – we know – do we in our laws – do we need to re-write laws? One recent one mentioned landlord liability… One thing I’d love to see is more collaboration between selectboard and officials in Montpelier. How’s my time… almost there. As a way to democratize responsibility. Could banks, real estate agents, etc could also assume some responsibility. Other benefit that need to be involved. We have fore and building codes. Could they apply to drug houses? What can we do as a community ?

    Ian – thank you very much for that. Well articulated points.

    Franz- thank you Tim for bringing that up.

    Ian – the agenda item may mention that, too, so stick around. You may have follow up thoughts.

    Carol McMannis – I want to thank the police and fire and you and us bringing back the neighborhood watch, and we are taking action. More will be revealed. Other issues going on with dilapidated houses, boarded up buildings… I knew the owner. I drank in there years ago. It’s an eyesore and has been housing people that struggle with addictions. We have a school across the street. We want it torn down. I’ve down research. Please, from that neighborhood, we’d like you to start thinking about that.

    Judy Davidson – following up – what would it take to make the public forum that it is a warned meeting – it is more serious, because all of you would have to be there. What would it take? What’s the process?

    Ian – uh, that we want it to be a warned meeting. The idea was that it was informed by other things over the years. We have meetings, but other forums because this forum is intimidating, so a different structure is there, and board members will be there. I’m informed from the community safety discussions. Meetings like this can be intimidating so we want to offer different ways to ask questions and get answers. We started the whole calendar back in the springtime and looked at all the meetings for people to come and discuss and wanted another… I won’t take a follow up. I want to keep it moving.

    Daniel – we’ve been part of…in my time we’ve had some public forums on opioids and about car break ins. A public forum is for the public. The selectboard..

    Ian – we won’t get into a back and forth.

    Daniel – I’m just responding to it… your concern is that the board doesn’t think they need to attend. I’ll be at the meeting. There is a seriousness here that its being missed.

    Peter – the community safety forum was attended by three of us and we got more out of it. I get more one on one time face to face so…

    Ian – I won’t take any more… things unrelated to EMS speak in public participation which is what this time is for.

    Dan – I represent Elliot and Main apartments. A tenet was accosted at Experienced Goods and backed out of the lease. We lost another tenant to not feeling safe. It is out of control

    Franz – where?

    Dan – Elliot and Main.

    Dora Bouboulis – my comment has to do with a clarification about the consent agenda… if we want to move it, but not everyone knows there is no public discussion.

    Ian – no speaking to items on the consent agenda, but you can request we pull it, it goes to the end of the agenda, then we do it. Thanks for the reminder. If you want to pull the Buddy Walk parade permit, ask us… the reason we have the consent agenda is to get a lot done that doesn’t need much discussion. Leaves more time for other discussions. Not a perfect system.

    Jill Stahl Tyler for Community House – want to thank the police and others who were there and the Town Manager. A high school is opening there. We saw 3-4 drug buys per hour on foot before the raid. We found needles and pipes. Heroin injections at 11 am. The situation was dire. Thanks to all who were effective. Within hours of the raid, habitual offenders were back… by noon that day, but it has dramatically dropped off since then. And on Oak Street that has dropped off. It is a serious matter and dramatically affects all of us, when people won’t shop or take apartments, employees feel unsafe… the town doesn’t survive.

    Ian – that was all the hands

  • Consent Agenda

    John Potter – 12 Items:
    A. Bar 580 – Outside Consumption Permit Amendment and Annual Entertainment License
    B. Variety Plus – Second Class Liquor License, Tobacco License, Tobacco Substitute
    Endorsement Permit
    C. Two (2) Utilities Division Vehicles – $54,819 Bid Award
    D. Grant in Aid MRGP Grant – Accept and appropriate $37,000 Grant
    E. Better Connections Grant – Accept and Appropriate $97,500 Grant
    F. Courier Grant – Accept and Appropriate $650 Grant
    G. Buddy Walk – Authorize Parade Permit
    H. Walk for Animals – Authorize Parade Permit
    I. Deputy Health Officer – Appoint Inspector Steven E. Nelson
    J. Vermont Vibrancy Fund Letter of Attestation – Approve
    K. OpenGov Contract – Authorize $39,040 Contract
    L. FY25 Budget Process Direction

    So consented….

  • Security Services and Town Safety Update

    Ian – I invite Chief Norma and Assistant Chief Evans. Welcome.

    Evans – thanks for letting us be here. Thanks for everyone that turned out and wants to speak about security and all the voices getting heard.

    Daniel – people can’t hear. Need to speak up.

    Ian – air conditioning is loud

    Evans – we gave a memo with a brief overview. We contracted with a security service in June. We hoped to see more call volume for us as we had more presence (8 hr a day every day). We’ve had two solid months of someone there every night. We’ve seen a shift – a positive shift. Less of the complaints about criminal activity that had been seen there and the people sleeping or hanging out. We’ve seen less of that. Call volume jumped at first and peaked in July, then came down in August. One thing we noticed is the activity in the parking garage didn’t just go somewhere else. It didn’t just go to the Preston Lot. So far so good would be the…

    Ian – excellent. Thank you for the presentation.

    Franz – thanks. What about cameras – are they functional and being used?

    Chief – not answering how they are being used but they are functional. : )

    Ian – that was a clear succinct answer.

    Franz – During off hours?

    Evans – obviously things happen in the off hours, we prioritize the highest volume part of the day. yes there is call volume at other times. We do other patrols. Officers walk downtown. The overall shift fit for the garage. It is ongoing. It is producing a positive result.

    Franz – Good enough? Should we do more?

    Evans – no particular recommendations. We’ve spoken about restaffing the police department to have more officers for this. That’s ongoing. It’s a process.

    Liz – I echo and applaud the comments mentioned earlier. You mentioned that the security series will walk people to cars… you might want to amplify that.

    Evans – part of the contract is that when people are uncomfortable, they can call and the security guard will assist them to and from the car. They haven’t had a lot of help. They offer it to many, but people don’t ask for it.

    Liz – the number they call?

    Chief – we have signs on each floor for the number for dispatch and safety cards we hand out and can pick up around town.

    Liz – applaud again for the solution oriented response and long term building of the department.

    Chief – 3 in the academy right now, one just off field training, and three more for the next academy.

    Franz – neighborhood watch came up. What does it take? How to set it up?

    Chief – there are three active groups in town already. they reached out to us, and we set up video meetings with them, give the group safe ways to watch the neighborhood. Use technology. Send us videos, and the group can monitor who is in the group.

    Franz – who to contact?

    Chief – call me or the assistant Chief. I’ll do the first initial meeting and officers carry on. We can give you safety tips.

    Liz – it is important that the public understand that any breaking or incident you have to call the police. Many think there’s nothing we can do, but the police track the incidents. The data is important.

    Chief – absolutely. Report it. We don’t always get called, or get told weeks later. We do catch these people. We’ve caught quite a few over the last few months. We bring them in and they get let out. We are catching them. We just solved a bank robbery. It’s frustrating to catch them and see them right back on the street.

    Peter Case – released on conditions. It’s a huge problem. It handcuffs the police department. It means we do need to talk to senators, which I’m doing, but not sure … there is an anonymous tip line for you that you can call and help with data. Call when you see something happening.

    Keller – 802 251 8188 is the tip line

    Evans – we have tip email, too. If you want a quick call, don’t use it, but if you have general information

    Ian – anything on the rest of municipal buildings security service?

    Chief – we just started that. The person is in training. We have someone at the library tonight. They’ll check over here, then go to the garage for an extra set of eyes until 10 pm.

    Ian – next time we should hear a report?

    Evans – best would be maybe 3 months, to give you more of an overview.

    Dick Degray – I’d like to invite you to the meeting when the legislators and Shriver come here. Good to talk about catch and release. I’ve been advocating for cameras around town. Will you have them in your budget? A strategic tool. Like the robbery at the jewelry store. The last thing, the transportation center that happened last week – another untimely death off the garage – 4 this year? What can we do to prevent people from taking their life. We had employees on the street that day who saw it. Can’t just sweep it under the table. We need to talk about prevention and suicide prevention to curb that activity at that facility.

    Chief Hardy – we are that cameras are a good tool. We’ve discussed certain places they would be beneficial. We talked this week about things that can bee done. DPW will put up the hotline number. We’ve seen this. Our strategy is to try to have someone call for help and put up the notices in that area.

    John Potter – that’s great. Also we asked DPW to look into netting or physical barriers to solve that issue and will bring back costs on that.

    Daniel – campuses have buttons to make an emergency call.

    Chief – we can ask DPW about it and the costs.

    Dora – I’ve seen the security and the public feels a little more comfortable and safe. The are there for 8 hours. Is it varied? Overnight would be more unsafe but the people are in there during the day…

    Chief – we have the guard during the hours they are – that’s when the most calls and complaints come in. We looked at volume, so we could use security during biggest call volumes. After dark, after work… that’s how we chose those hours. Officers walk through before in the morning.

    Landry – Thanks to Bratt PD. I work at Holstein and I sent info in and got a great response. What are the hours? And, they haven’t seen the activity move around town. I’m not sure if that’s the case. I’m having a horrible time at Holstein with people sleeping on the property, drug activity, leaving messes. Big increase in the park below us in the last two weeks. Greatly increased.

    Evans – I meant not that they haven’t dispersed around town, but we didn’t see them move from one area to another… not everyone went to the Preston Lot. There was some concern but it didn’t happen. Around town? Undoubtedly.

    Ian – we don’t want to be explicit about the hours.

    Jill – we were asked to give a blanket no trespassing so you could stop people…

    Evans – we can discuss with property owners about the best program for their property. Every property is different.

    Kate T – thanks to police , Fire and DPW , board and TM. All have been responsive and collaborative. This feels like the tone has changed to be a partnership an I appreciate it. The DBA , we are offering a mental health first aid session tomorrow. It free to DID members. We are all responsible for a safe community. Do we use the Next Door app? An app for neighborhood watched. We are doing Ring app, but are there other tools?

    Evans – police aren’t using Next Door. We do get Ring videos and the videos for uploading.

    John Potter – the town has been challenged with the end of the motel program. Police have been fantastic. My gratitude to them for doing a fantastic job. Awe need to work together and happy to hear community groups are collaborating. A primary goal for the board this year!

    Chief – thanks, but I know we have community support, and you come to the station…it means the world to my officers.

    Peter – there is a different round of faces here tonight.

    Ian – no vote, just an update. So we’ll move on to the Fire EMS update…

  • Fire-EMS Transition Update (7:05 PM) (i) Public Engagement – Insights from Other Communities (7:05 PM)

    Chief Stagner from Springfield and Chief Locke from South Burlington.

    John Potter – we set out on a logical path and set to a process and hearing from the public . One thing we heard is that could we hear from some other communities. Grateful to have Steven Locke from South Burlington (reads bio). Also Chief Stagner from Springfield (reads bio). Let’s strat with Stagner. Your experience with municipal EMS?

    Stagner – we are municipal… a fire based EMS system. We provide Springfield with fire and EMS. 14 people staff. 3100 call s last year. 500 non emergency. $2 million budget. Serve 55 square miles. 8-9 calls a day and a great service to the town.

    Locke – test test test… sound ok? No? I can speak louder? Spent 32 years in fire based EMS system. We do 8k medical calls in Burlington. Generate a million from the ambulances. Municipalities can control costs… can assign fire fighters. It’s a system I grew up in. South Burlington switched to municipal. I’ve seen all the models. I am biased to what I experienced. I can take questions.

    Liz – I’ll start with the chief from Springfield – how long have you had it?

    Stanger – we started in 1970 with a station wagon and 250 ambulance calls. Today I run 2 emergency vehicles and three or four emergency calls stacked at a time.

    Liz – is there a size threshold for municipal fire EMS?

    Stanger – size ?? Demographics plays a role. A tipping point? I’ve been raised in the Fire based EMS. I’m a fan of it. I’ve talked about other systems. This is the only type I know. I worked for other ambulance services. Fire based is to me has wonderful advantages for springfield. One is that residents are now receiving full emergency based system. We do a lot of different things. Adding EMS is natural. We have a complete package and the town has complete oversight over the system. One benefit is everyone can comment on everything. Fire based EMS typically pays more, creates revenue for the town, pays people more. Can pick and select best people. You hire better people and have a better product. You can make it cream of the crop.

    Liz – union?

    Stanger – not all are. The jobs are more competitive.

    Liz – great. You mentioned oversight. Does that mean accountability to personnel and review of each incident?

    Stanger – yes – oversight of my budget and my staff and my services. We started a nonemergency transport service to create more revenue.

    Liz – there are medical personnel overseeing your work?

    Stanger – with the EMS system has medical oversight, private or public.

    Liz – Chief Locke – repeat those questions?

    Locke – he said it well and I’d say it used to be fire EMS had low turnover. More recently that is challenged. We’re not seeing the applicant pool or the longevity and greater turnover. It had been sold for fire-based EMS, but there is greater turnover in the last 5 years.

    Franz – I heard asking about the size of the town… is there a population to have these services?

    Stagner – it would be an objective opinion. In Chester – they has a wonderful EMS provider. They could benefit from their own ambulance. They are working toward it.

    Locke – it is what the voters and citizens want. My voters want a quality service. If you are ok waiting 45 minutes for an ambulance, you could wait for a volunteer service. Your community expects competent people in a timely fashion. We are adding a second ambulance to meet demand.

    Franz – we heard about the advantages of a regional service. If you have a bunch of small towns and four each to have their own system… maybe the population density of you can’t get the financial renounces to have a freestanding service. What are the advantages of a regional service.

    Locke – I grew up with regional service. It may take an ambulance long to get to the other end of the district. Your community has a population that gets called 10 times a day, so that’s a tipping point for a regional service that you can deliver as a municipality.

    Stagner – regionalization is working in other states, but not yet in VT. VT may have a PILOT program at some point. A regional model may work for small towns. I wouldn’t say regionalize – the kiss of death for me. It needs to be dictated by the state. It won’t happen next year.

    Franz – if you could, would it offer advantages?

    Stanger – depends on how it is done. By county, by EMS district. It has to be a thought out plan and a plan that the region agrees on. There are regional models that work.

    Daniel – simple questions – you have 3k call volume and you have 5k? How many ambulances in Springfield .

    Stagner – 3 ambulances, and 2 get run all day long. We are incredibly busy.

    Locke – I have two parked at the fire station and one is staffed. If it goes out, we have 6 people for fire suppression. We staff 1, and soon to staff 2. We have a robust mutual aid system and many of my calls are handled by other communities. It’s a mini-regionalized system.

    Stagner – we have 2 people minimum. If I have no one out on vacation, of 4 platoons, min staffing is just 2.

    Locke – we use 10 assigned and drop to 8 minimum.

    Daniel – Locke – mutual aid is essential?

    Stanger – we don’t rely on mutual aid. My crew are relatively dedicated. Someone will show up. Our transport time is 6 minutes in Springfield. Surrounding communities are volunteer. There is no mutual aid for EMS. Mutual aid means both have something to offer. If I don’t get anything in return… it isn’t mutual. If I send a EMS team out of town, we bill for it. I expect a bill if I ask for help.

    Locke – I have a different view. In the upper valley, we see neighboring community ambulances every day. They are supplanting our service. It was no longer mutual. We got it but didn’t give back… so we stepped up to staff a second ambulance. No community can handle everything. Customers expect us, so we have a robust mutual aid system.

    Daniel – I don’t expect a straight answer… we’ve worked with revenue projections based on the previous year and some assumptions about billing rates. We’re talking about 2.1k and revenue around 880k-900k… Locke mentioned is revenue.

    Locke – 3200 calls. 23% we didn’t transport. And 500 were non transport. So let’s say we did 1800 and we took in about a million. It is a billiable service that you can charge as a market rate. There will be a lot of write-offs but you will collect pretty good dough.

    Daniel – are our estimates reasonable?

    Stagner – we had about the same. We billed out 600k and got 400k …

    Daniel – billing in house?

    Stanger – we do billing in town in Springfield – we took it seriously now. There was a time we didn’t bill. We saw the revenue potential so we started billing. We’ve become better at billing. We haven’t given it away yet.

    Locke – we did both – we billed in house and outsourced it. I would not do your own billing. Collections will be higher. They check the patient data. It is cheap money to get much more return on your investment.

    Ian – thanks for being here. I appreciate that there is disagreement on some of these questions. There are many different models. I have a couple of quick questions, then the public… first, if Brattleboro does municipal fire EMS, what is the number one thing to worry about?

    Stagner – you’ve already been exposed to the service and the stresses. There won’t be a lot of surprises.

    Locke – given the supply chain – we’re 3 years out for new ambulances… how do you get the big pieces of equipment? Keeping big stuff in the supply chains I’d worry about.

    Stanger – I replace ambulances every 6 years.

    Locke – we’re moving to a 9 year system with 3 ambulances in rotation.

    Franz – how difficult is it to hire top rate paramedics? If we go with this we’ll need additional folks?

    Stagner – hiring anyone right now is a challenge. I used to get 25 applicants. I now get 2. Could be the wave of the future. Everyone has different requirements.

    Locke – he’s right. It’s difficult to hire people. We’ve left positions open. Can’t hire a paramedic. I get basic EMTs applying. We grow our own. Send them to school, but don’t anticipate hiring certified parmedics.

    Ian – you have 3 type ones

    Locke – we have two ambulances on pickup truck chassis.

    Ian – let’s open this to the public. We’ll finish up, then take a break, then move on.

    Dick Degray – questions are quick answers – billing rates in each community?

    Stanger – $425/575/725 + $12 a mile. It’s going up soon.

    Locke – 1050 / 21.50 a loaded mile.

    Degray – percentage of fully insured calls?

    Locke – we have about 80% medicare medicaid. Even in the affluent community, the majority transported are these calls.

    Stanger – were about 78% medicare medicaid.

    Degray – for Locke- you said you got about $1 million from 18800 calls per year. What is you budget line item for EMS… does the revenue over the expenses?

    Locke – we combine expenses with the fire department – about $5 million and we generate $978k. Does it pay for itself? Depends on the math.

    Judy Davidson – we are starting from scratch- we have to buy three ambulances and more new staff and equip them. You’ve been doing this for a while. We’d have to rent ambulances to get this going. You’ve talked about how hard it is to hire, and we need 7 new members. Locke said is was a weird time. Would you undertake this at this point of time given it is a weird time, hard to get equipment and staff? Would you start a new service if you did it in this weird time?

    Stagner – yes. During COVID and a shortage of professional. I started the non-emergency transport and hired new people for that and we learned a lot. Today we are in the black. Well worth it today what we did 3 years ago.

    Locke – I was interim town manager, etc.. you have to look at more than just.. it is more complex. I’d still move forward. I can control the department and the services delivered. Otherwise we’d outsource everything. It’s always cheaper, but part is to deliver core municipal services. Your own EMS system allows you to control your own destiny.

    Bob Oeser – thanks for the presentation. Daniel was along this line. There are 3k and 5k for the two agencies. And staff was the shift numbers. What’s the total employees in department and population of the towns, and turnover of staff?

    Stagner – my objective is to hire more people. The amount of work my people are seeing is borderline abuse. We are understaffed. I hope to get a grant for additional staff. That’s on my desk every morning when I come in. I look at grants, what other departments have done. That’s what I work on today.

    Locke – we have 20k population, 30 staff total. Turnover is interesting – we had significant turnover before I came there, but we’ve lost 1 in the last year.

    Stagner – 1 person left in the last 4 years. I’ve widened the living requirements. Don’t have to live in Springfield anymore.

    LT Zach from Rescue – Burlington – to the board – I am interested to hear from the Chiefs. We heard the Chiefs explain the difficulty of hiring process. Both mention difficulty of hiring professionals. I echo that. It’s across the state, not specific to whatever model you choose. Hard to hire for this line of work. I heard comparisons for Springfield and South Burlington. In Brattleboro – there are regional ambulance services already in town. Did you have that in your communities. If there were resources…

    Locke – a private service gave free service to the community but the community wanted more, South Burlington took it over. We still rely on them every day, but not a the primary services. Community wanted to control it. Now a partnership.

    Stagner – I have a partnership with Golden Cross. Fire based EMT can fix almost anything … no need to call for additional help. We’re an emergency services department. We hire Golden Cross if we get busy.

    Dora – regarding billing – a great variance in what it’s billed. What is your collection policy, and do you know what the outside service is doing for collections?

    Locke – they do what we tell them to do. We use soft collections – we send 3-4 bills and if we don’t hear from you in 6 months it is written off. Never supported hard collections. This is a municipal service. We do chase insurance, but not hound people in the community.

    Stagner – we send a few bills, we don’t send anyone to collections. We do work out payment plans, but we write off quite a bit, too. After a year.

    Peter Case – percentage wise how much do you collect?

    Stagner – 34k

    Locke – the percentage is pretty small.

    Franz – very helpful

    ian – thanks so much for coming. It’s an important discussion for us and your experience and professionalism..

    Stanger – we’re good friends with Chief Howard

  • (ii) Third-Party Contracted EMS Alternative — Review RFP Proposals

    Ian – time to talk about the end of the RFP process.

    Potter – We set out to try to get multiple viable alternatives for you to consider and we did an RFP and got two really good proposals. The types of models we anticipated, we got two of them. The two types we got were a dedicated full contracted proposal (ambulances and personnel are dedicated to Brattleboro) from AMR. The second proposal was a shared hybrid model that relies on sharing resources across multiple towns. Those are the tow models. Both responses are provided in your backup materials for you to look at and see the responses. In addition, we have had conversations with both parties and learned additional things about how to provide services. Those updated ideas were put together in tables in the revised memo. Patrick can run through the comparisons.

    Moreland – I’d like to remind everyone that both proposals and all memos on the town website on the EMS page. Take a close look. (gets a presentation together…) This table and another are in the memo. Here are some highlights.

    # of ambulances – AMR says 1; Rescue says 5 in Brattleboro; Municipal would be 3.

    # of paramedics – AMR= 1 24/7; Rescue = 1 (usually 3-6) on 24/7; municipal = 2

    # staff- AMR = 2; Rescue = unclear; municipal = 10

    response time – AMR – no answer; Rescue = 71 seconds longer than BFD avg; municipal = under 8:30 90% of the time.

    Dispatch protocols – AMR = Brattleboro; Rescue = Keene; municipal = Brattleboro

    reliance on BFD for first response? – AMR = none; Rescue= Under 100 calls a year; municipal = all calls

    Revenue – AMR = they bill; Rescue – they bill and retain ; municipal = contracted

    Rates – AMR = selectboard sets rates; Rescue – they set; municipal = we set.

    Potter – any discussion of this part so far?

    Franz – thanks. I like this presentation. My point is that some of this may be in stone or unchangeable, but a lot would be negotiable in a contract. if we like some but not the rest, we can go back and ask for changes from contractor. This can still develop over time.

    Daniel – may questions will not be answered by town administration, so my questions are about the proposals? Want to hear what we want back from the proposers?

    Potter – certainly – if we can further clarify…what is in the proposals is good for 90 days, based on the service described in the proposal. Once you tinker, it opens things up and are no longer protected by the procurement.

    Daniel – under Rescue response – a big difference between the past and now. BFD would only be needed for 100 calls. What specific list would BFD respond to? And in the absence of BFD, then that’s a significant difference – what kind of response times can be expected with what level of confidence.

    Liz – while on one hand they want it to be the same as before, they’ve changed the relation on priority calls so significantly I’d like an explanation.

    Peter – we would return to Brattleboro level of service in 2022, but the service is different. I’m confused by that answer. if you want to return to the level of service, but you don’t need that service, I’m really confused by that. My understanding is that we have yet to receive the auditors report?

    Potter – that is one of the requirement and we are working with Rescue to make sure they are responsive to that. haven’t received that yet.

    Peter – we have not received it?

    Potter – we received a link but it wasn’t there, so it may be an error on how to access the info.

    Liz – they told you where to go find it?

    Peter – AMF … AMR supplied it?

    Potter – yes – very confident in their ability to provide services.

    Franz – we are obligated if we ask for the RFP for one responder we have to get it from everyone who wants to do business with the town.

    Potter – we are optimistic we’ll get the info from rescue.

    Liz – it just came up the topic of hiring and turnover and I’d like both parties and Brattleboro to respond to availability of resources – would they need to hire to do this contract? What’s their turnover? What’s the climate for hiring?

    Daniel – dispatch – it says on page 3 that Hazelton wasn’t confident in Bratt dispatch, and wants accurate info from another town… and will agree to penalties for not meeting times. Are we looking at previous data? Something else?

    Potter – my understanding is they are willing to work with us to establish some standards around response time then guaranteeing response times. It has to do with future contract requirements.

    Franz – I’ve heard in the past that a tone would go out for Rescue and the BFD, but it didn’t go out at the same time to both places. When I read that, that’s what I saw was the concern. Rescue thought data would be off since tones times were different. That’s limited problem that can be fixed.

    Potter – that’s what Rescue told us. It could be figured out.

    Peter – does it depend on dispatch… how does it get determined? I’m sure there is a simple answer, but I can attach myself to this answer. It makes me uncomfortable. I want to know all resources are dispatched equally in town… not picking and choosing.

    Franz – I can answer how dispatch works…

    Peter – it does have to do with the proposal – I can go grab a coffee with him later and learn about it.

    Ian – office hours!

    Liz – the statement about negotiating response times. I’d like to know whether negotiating would lead to higher fees.

    Potter – good question. That’s the problem with some of the responses about response times. We’ve been clarifying but don’t completely understand. For both responses. It may be clarifying to getting it ascertained prior to you making a decision about this.

    Daniel – the 1 ambulance offer from AMR won’t meet our needs. We need 2-3. How much more money for the right number of ambulances.

    Potter – they are working on an answer to that.

    Franz – something not in the matrix is availability of mutual aid. The hybrid model would get us resources more readily than the others. That’s on my mind about our preferred model. What model we prefer is important.

    Liz – is it mutual resources if it is more resources from the same contractor

    Franz – no.

    Daniel – AMR proposal we would need mutual aid X amount of time. The BFD proposal uses 3 ambulances and no mutual aid. We could use 2 and rely more on mutual aid. Rescue says shared assets. They rarely need mutual aid. The chiefs told us about their systems, too. One is a regional system of municipal providers. One is small and makes it work. these are all decisions and the mutual aid thing speaks to partnerships.

    Ian – more board questions? (it’s 9:14) I can open it to the public but we could continue on…

    Degray – the issue with continuing on is you just give us three minutes. If you go all the way through you’ll give me 3 minutes. Timing is everything. Ambulances in the narrative – no information on type from Rescue. Rescue has more than 5 ambulances. They have 5 assigned here. 85% of the time Brattleboro uses one ambulance, so Rescue could handle it. Then, down under even, AMR says direct passthrough, but we pay $1.6 million up front and then they pay back… we pay first then they reimburse for what they collect.

    potter – turning the air conditioning off.

    Liz – not 5 dedicated, but 5 are housed here.

    Potter – they have others they can bring in to Brattleboro, too.

    Daniel – not worried about ambulances – how often are those assets in other communities – can there be one ambulance in Brattleboro and how often?

    Franz – Rescue would move resources from other towns.

    Daniel – I’d like them to answer it.

    Sandy – if you look at Rescue page 9 they list what Brattleboro should assist with – six things. AMR with one ambulance is not enough. In Rescue- they will go with third party, they don’t want to give your financials.

    Daniel – speak to competition…

    Potter – we asked Rescue if they had financial info and they do. Why not share it publicly? We asked for it to just be sent to us. The answer was that info in the report that would make it more possible for the town to provide emergency services better than it does now. Not sure how their cost info would do that? Maybe this is a concern from a year and a half ago? At this point it seems irrelevant or moot. Seemed like Rescue was understanding that. they are willing but it isn’t here yet. We just want to see an independent audit to see they don’t have a lot of debt. And to make sure the proposal is responsive so if it is chosen there won’t be issues.

    Bob Oeser -point of information – someone has hand up on zoom. 990’s are publicly available.

    David Levanbach – if Rescue were to get the contract in someone in Bratt called 911, would it go through our dispatch and then be passed to Keene? Second, first response, for AMR and Rescue. Fire Chief made point he will always go out and won’t rely on others. That would work for AMR, and may account for what Rescue is expecting with the lower number of calls. Maybe they anticipate BFD won’t be going out. Does the town plan to ask Chief Howard to not repost to every call?

    Potter – not an expert but the call would go to 911 to Keene then to Rescue and would have no BFD central dispatch. Second… uh.. I think that could be . The board could direct it but the community wouldn’t stand for it very long. Rescue would have to call mutual aid if they couldn’t cover calls.

    Daniel – that’s what we want more clarity on. Also, Sandy said that section 6 there was a description of calls, but one piece of it… high acuity calls… it could be all or certain types. I’d like ambiguity to be removed. And in terms of operations, to direct him to run the fire dept a certain way is not our business. In the Charter.

    Franz – everything relates to dispatch protocols and who makes decisions about what resources respond. And medical protocols are fairly rigid. Who gets sent out under each situation. I prefer to be generous in what we send out. You have to have someone there to make a decision. It should be loosened not tightened. This is subject to negotiation. If shared hybrid model is appropriate then we’d go over dispatch protocols and who is making decisions.

    Liz – this question is telling in that much of the response war written to limit the role of the BFD. There is a dichotomy between saying they want to go back but they are changing the relationship. It relates to how many firefighters we are employing to provide minimal service. Either they want us or they don’t. This is very vague about which calls we go on. Not something I will negotiate. I want to know now so we can plan.

    Daniel – Franz – do you need this answered by the proposer?

    Franz – not now. If we did a contact we could stipulate in a contract. I need to know we can make that call and put it in the agreement.

    Daniel – I wanted it to be asked. This is contract negotiation in public.

    Chief Howard – for 911. On TV is different. In real life, you call 911 it gets answered to Westminster or Williston state police. They take the info and they call Brattleboro dispatch and give them the info to dispatch. If Degray has a NH cell phone it will go to NH 911 and it will transfer it to VT, then to Brattleboro. If you go with Rescue, the same thing will happen. Wherever you bought your phone, that’s where the 911 call goes.

    Degray – you are talking about – if we choose Rescue and say you have to use our dispatch, it doesn’t matter because it depends where you bought your phone. No need for Rescue to use BFD dispatch. It depends on where the phone was bought. That’s interesting!

    Franz – even more complicated. The implications are that then it goes somewhere, then somewhere… and that is what is important. I don’t care about Keene or Brattleboro, but I do care about protocols.

    Peter – if I understand correctly – Westminster calls,,it goes north, then Keene calls? Then if it goes to BFD? Do I understand correctly?

    Howard – it depends what level of call, then they call for the resources. That tells our dispatchers how to dispatch priority calls.

    Peter – prior to 2022, where did calls get generated? (Brattleboro dispatch)

    Daniel – we’re missing something. It’s less about where the call goes. It’s previously BFD did first repose for 100 calls and some weren’t such a big deal. If BFD is asked to do a small list of calls, there could be scenarios might not fully understand and not send high priority responses, and an ambulance isn’t available…. dispatch protocols are important. What bother me is the drop from the last time we did this – 1300 calls to 100 calls makes me worry when what happens when dispatch gets it wrong. That’s what I worry about.

    Dora – for history, when I was on the board in 2008, we look at the issues. Rescue offered.. they didn’t need the BFD to respond to every call. BFD was categorically denying that. We decided they could reposed to all calls. Rescue understand its and want to anticipate points of conflict. They come back with changes because they know there are issues with Brattleboro and doing a proposal based on this. 911 is always an issue over the years. I wanted to bring it up. It’s been discussed over the years. It costs more for everyone to reposed, but that’s the history and policy.

    (Ian is tired)

    Franz – I agree with Dora’s assessment. I imagine that this is an attempt to deal with problems in the past with BFD. If we limit the interactions we limit problems, but that’s not the right way. Dora is on to something there. It’s another big topic we’ll be talking about.

    Liz – I agree. I do think Rescue’s response tries to limit interaction with Brattleboro and it is an incomplete repose. if Rescue wants to work for Brattleboro they need to work with Brattleboro and that’s a fact to be discussed. I’ve reviewed both responses. We can’t negotiate it. We need to look at what is written and decide on that.

    peter – I hear what you are saying and agree. I don’t want to accept then negotiate. I want to know what I’m buying before I bring it home. Realistic – if you call 911, you are having a bad day. I don’t care if 15 vehicles show up. Howard has said it would be irresponsible for the FD not to respond to the calls.

    Bob – you are right on all sides. I’m not a good example. I’ve had ascebic reactions with people today. Something can be in writing. You don’t always get what you expect. Sometimes even if it is all in writing, people don’t follow it, or argue about it. I sent an email a week or two ago with a clip of Putney FD saying we are intensely involved in these things, so we disagree, but we call each other and figure it out. That might be the bottom line in all of this.. figure out where the problems really are and work it out.

    Rescue – Thanks to the chief for the 911. The RFP poses a question about how they would use the first response system. It assumes too much. The proposer can’t assume what the town will respond to. We can’t fully explain what specific calls we’d expect a response from. The Chief would agree that f we did a policy for response I could fill 40 pages. there is so much nuance and complexity. Hard to get a 1 paragraph answer. Public welfare demands something clinically excellent. That’s what you are trying to find. Build a system that is the best. We will use BFD for first repose that needs to be negotiated. It can’t be written in adnate and not for us to demand as a proposer. The proposal has examples. In NH we have a spectrum of levels of calls. Each has a different response, or type of response…sirens or not, paramedic or not, lights or not… we expect to work with any first response agencies to meet anticipated care needs. If the FD is required to enter a building it is required. In the AMR model, there is no way to avoid using the BFD as a first response. Our intention is not to diminish the role of the FD it is to simply optimize all available resources because BFD already has challenges responding to fires and EMS. (I’m on behalf of Rescue)

    Tim Wessel – recently through Bob’s urging I watched the Rescue event, and Chief Hazelton spoke about too much time spent on response times. For me and my family and all of your constituents it is all about having an appropriate response to show up within minutes – doesn’t matter who shows up as long as they are here to help. Even if Hazelton has good points about response about perfect measures, it is literally the most important thing in a crisis is how quickly to get there. It gives me pause if we go back to 2022 but with less need for BFD. Those are our employees and are dedicated. Rescue response was daft.

    Judy Davidson – what I recognize in Rescue’s proposal is the challenges in the past between BFD and Rescue. There are always two stories. tensions were not resolved last year. Rescue is proposing a structure to avoid future tension to have everyone meet quarterly to discuss cases and policies and procedures, and mediation is problems arise. This is rational and reasonable. I hope you pay attention to that. Many of the next table points are about tension. You need to take into account personalities. This discussion shows the depth of our concern.

    Ian – on to the next table…

  • ... the financials compared (and things melt down)

    Potter – the financials and intangibles as they relate to FY25 (only!)… looking for your feedback on these. Not sure we have it right.

    Moreland – this is updated in the memo circulated today. AMR clarified flow of funds. AMR first… as noted the flow of funds of reimbursement would end up with the Town of Brattleboro. You’d notice we include low and high estimates – at 84% since they opposed a single ambulance.

    AMR fully dedicated + dispatch revenue – 800=900k revenue and +$34,325 to -53,902 impact to general fund after costs.

    Rescue Inc – 0 revenue + $251,931 cost.

    Municipal – 837k – 942k revenue = -54k to -156k

    Daniel – the dispatch rate was based on cost per call? Given that they.. would that be also at 84% for AMR?

    Moreland – I’m not sure.

    Liz – is the 84% the right way to go to curtail these numbers. If we get more clarification. Shouldn’t we be inflating to account for a second ambulance?

    Moreland – I understand . I’m dealing with the proposal as presented to us at this time.

    Liz – you will have this info by Sept 19??

    Daniel – if additional info comes in.

    Moreland – dealing with the proposal in front of us.

    Moreland – (reviews Rescue’s column in the chart…) The cost could be reduced if we get a dispatch agreement. lastly, the municipal model we have gone over with you. We know more about the payer mix and billing rates. We’d add 7 new employees and other operating expenses.

    Moreland – then we look at intangibles…

    Ian – can the interpreters stay? 10:30? Hope it isn’t 10?

    Janet – I’m okay and could go til 11 or 11:30…

    Ian – I hope we don’t go til 11:30… let’s aim for 10:45.

    Janet – Janet 2 can you sign yes or no to me? yes.

    Potter – there are a bunch of other consideration beyond economics (he reads the semi-arbitrary list with subjective guesses as to risks) – revenue, procurement need, interorganizational coordination, transition of care, quality control, rates, customer service, response times, loss of EMT talent, start up costs… ( the chart rates the risk of each model, with the municipal model, of course, rating least risky in all categories except start up costs.) Not sure we got these all right so we’d appreciate feedback.

    Ian – it is understandable. Using high, low and medium for risks…

    Daniel – I appreciate the work and how I understand it. It is an attempt to help us look at things other than numbers. It is subjective and not perfect. Classifying risk is a judgement call. You’ll get it wrong sometimes. I appreciate it and recognize its limitations. I was already thinking about other things beyond money – impacting our decision. You can’t put a number on it. The ARPA expense. It is one piece of the municipal approach I have the least happiness with. The revenue model has a sound methodology but it is uncertain. We can’t predict. The other pieces are the inter organizational and transition of care… haven’t said much about it. It’s about relationships between BFD and Rescue.. I didn’t know until last week the issues because I didn’t know if Rescue would apply. I need to understand the truth of the matter. I need to understand potentials for resolving that and whether or not it can be resolved. To meet our ambulance needs in town. That’s what I need.

    Franz – I appreciate those comments – I’ll come back.

    Peter – thanks… a lot of what we are dealing with is hung up in finances, but the intangibles are where I’m at. It’s not so much about the money. we need to know that if we call 911 they aren’t thinking about cost. I appreciate you saying it.

    Liz – Daniel mentioned the issue of transition of care and that’s central to my decision making and I think we allowed the public to hear Rescue’s narrative and I think it is important if we want the public to understand, we need to have a discussion of what I believe Rescue’s relationship with the BFD has really been and I would not let continue and so there needs to be a presentation by our staff of the history of this relationship and its probable causes and issues and I will no longer accept Rescue’s control of this narrative.

    Franz – we don’t want town employees in a toxic work environment so it gets worked out and maybe it will be ok. The right pieces need to be in place. It’s been on my mind – what is fair to the people we employ here. We should have a discussion of these issues.

    Ian – I need three head nods for that request…

    Daniel – I’d be clear that there are all kinds of legal pitfalls of public discussion of HR issues – things we can’t talk about but are a big part of our decision making. We know this but can’t tell you about it. If Town Attorney says yes….

    Ian – other discussions on Table 2 and financials. (10:33pm)

    Franz – I had an important point.. to remember…

    Kate O’Connor – the big bugaboo – the financial numbers are just the impact to FY25 – it is not expenses and revenues. I have the highest respect with town staff but disagree with the high low medium chart – very subjective with no evidence. It really is the inter organizational and transition of care… for me I was disappointed you had high risk for Rescue – it sounds like the town has given up. I hope not. You said likely loss of EMT talent… the question should be about retaining, not leaving. The other question is where does public opinion weigh in on all of this. The fire chiefs said it “was what the citizens want” but it isn’t in the list. This is too subjective, but I appreciate the effort.

    Ian – fair point. If we all did this, we’d all come up with different rankings.

    Potter – I’ll defend town staff work. I appreciate the point but really I agree it is subjective. It isn’t a formula. We want to make sure all of the issues the board members need to process were listed out and it is staffs take on this. Things they will have to weigh, including public opinion.

    Liz – comment – The chart is an effort and the conversation is an effort to present the decision making the board generally does in private. Understand all the factors is an exercise and we are attempting to present all the factor that go into our decision, so you can understand where we are all coming from.

    Ian – I want to get to people in the room but working against the clock.

    Daniel – the public opinion is a small piece of it. We live with each other whatever decision is made, and is meaningful to me. I don’t care if I get re-elected. I probably won’t run for re-election in 2 years. Not doing this to win votes. And it is clear to me the vocal majority would have liked a contract with Rescue so I have to weigh… it doesn’t sit with where I’m coming from. Would I vote against my personal interest because the interested people want me to do one thing. We all weigh that. I don’t want to say public opinion is the only thing. Multiple things are at play. It is a piece of it. We need to leave one another. If Bob is mad at me, that is meaningful. It’s meaningful that members of the community are angry with me.

    Franz – what he said. I’m concerned about all those same things. I wish people would believe we are taking this very seriously and have been weighing evidence for months and we’re really working on this. I’ve worked hard to listen to the public. dangle is right. We’re doing a good job on this and will make a good decision.

    Peter – Daniel and Liz mentioned things we know that we can’t tap;k about. It’s driving the bus on a lot of the conversation. You want a third nod?

    Ian- I assume on the 19th we’d get a hearing on interagency relationships BFD and Rescue.

    Peter – I think with that.. people think we are making a decision in a =vacuum, so.. a third head nod.

    Franz – me too…

    Ian – ok, um, so can I go to the public…

    Franz – talk to the town attorney

    Potter – you want this on the meeting the 19th?

    Liz – if it could be sooner.

    Potter -we could do it tonight.

    Peter – I don’t feel it is fair that they find out about the info on the same night we make a decision.

    Ian – can we do..

    Levenbach – this could be a table 1 question…. the AMR calls they can’t handle would go to mutual aid? Who would provide that? Would BFD do it? They might need an ambulance or staff…

    Ian – we can ask AMR.

    Potter – they would charge us for additional ambulances.

    Daniel – is it safe to say we don’t wanna dedicated model with one ambulance.

    Carol – hello – I was there earlier. Need AC so I went home. A lot of info tonight. I’m trying to be objective and not were my heart on my sleeve. Lots of info at the last minute. First off, those on the board before the decision was made, there was a decision about the sign for the winter carnival, and once the decision was made, the board reconsidered. Rescue came up and there was no room for discussion. It is a bit too close to the 19th. There is a lot pop things put out there this evening. You will be making the decision. I have a problem with that. I heard you do weigh in public opinion. You are public servants and my neighbors. I appreciate your work. I really truly hope those aren’t just words that you’ll take in public views. We have more than views. We’ve done the work, and done the research. And their views are informative. It’s not emotional only. They are educated views and speaking for a large majority of the community. I won’t tell you what to do, but consider… please at least let us know, and Daniel started, tell us what you need from us between now and then – summarize it. Have you already made your mind up? What would sway you one way or another? That would be appreciated. It’s 11 at night. If ou had done this Tuesday I couldn’t have participated. Thanks!

    Ian – thanks. We’re already over our 10:45 deadline.

    Carolyn Conrad – I have two comments and an offer. The financials are interesting. They do not include the upstart costs for the municipal option. The reality there is a 3 year ramp up period. We are hearing about two RFPs but also not deciding between the two RFPs – it’s pick one or stick with a model the selectboard has put in motion. It’s 2 fps plus municipal. not three side by side to compare. My offer, and I offered it to Rescue. I am a certified mediator and am happy to offer my services at no cost for Rescue and FD. I couldn’t serve as the mediator, but I can work to select someone and work with someone to be a neutral party about the items that shall not be named alluded to earlier. Happy to offer it.

    Dora – subjectivity of the chart – history disproves the accountability and transparency – it ebbs and flows depends on staff and board members. If the selectboard has been transparent, most in the room would say no, but you’d say you are. It’s all subjective. There are allusions towards Rescue being anon-profit and private. they govern the same way all regional entities do… BCTV, WSWMD… it isn’t an outlier. School board is a per capita funding mix. It’s mission driven and has a governing structure.

    Sandy – Along CC’s line – you need a mediator that meets with Rescue and BFD and the mediator can report back to you.

    Judy Davidson – I’, sad we’re at this point and saddened by Liz’s comment about laying out all the dirt. I wish this had happened last year. To suggest at this point in time the board will have a presentation presenting their side of the tension is not…I’, appalled by it. Have the other parties involved and hear two sides of the story. It is intense and personal for you Liz, but not fair for the public to witness this. We are neighbors and a community. To have this sort of intense dislike when others can work with them. Do we have to resolve things in this sort of the way.

    Ian – It is not a unanimous i=opinion.

    Bob – warn the Sept 12 meeting so you can attend and discuss. You can suspend the rules. Three will eb there and you can talk about the issue.

    Dick – really disappointed with Liz’s comment. You were chair when all this broke loose. No other chairs heard of Rescue issues. A big no from other chairs. Everyone tells me Rescue and BFD didn’t get along. Liz, why didn’t… three of you were on the board. Not to address these issues is really disturbing to me as someone who supports employees wholeheartedly. I never heard anything as Chair. Kate never heard anything. Tim never heard anything. This should have been resolved two years ago. There are things you know and everyone makes their own decisions. Really disappointed you didn’t do that. I don’t dislike Liz. I’m looking at the time and energy that has gone into this and other things that have been put aside that are a hell of a lot more important. Our system was fine…shaem on everyone for this being a personality conflict.

    Liz – there are pros selectboard members who said they knew about this problem for years. Elwell took me to the meeting to alert me to the conflict and alert me it was brewing, but we all got the letter that laid out the poor relationship and I was aware of it and it was in that letter.

    Ian – this has devolved really low and I’d like to keep it not there. We’ve remained pretty civil and we’re all trying to do the best for Brattleboro. I see hands going up. Let’s end the back and forth and hear from Carol.


    Carol – hi again – just want to say I appreciate everyone stepping up about what we’ve all been saying outside the room. It is sad that it has come to this. I want to remind people I’ve been taught that it is principals before personalities. That applies here. Know that you are loved.

    Dora – this is related to the motion. The request…if you go down this route, confer with VLCT… you are going down a rabbit hole that could put you in legal jeopardy.

    Tim – I’ll lend my support to go down offering a different narrative would be wonderful and would explain to people what happened. What we should be doing is really deciding what the proper model for Brattleboro is. If we had not switched from Rescue, we would not have the data to know municipal EMS. I support municipal EMS. My opinions are still good. Set aside everything that happened. I did know there was a major problem and it is has been around. It doesn’t matter anymore. Even if we really get along, sometimes relationships don’t work and a model is different. Fire EMS is best for Brattleboro. It isn’t that much of a leap to get more control and destiny for what happens in the town. Look ford not back on the past. I won’t come to those meetings, It is PTSD for me.

    Liz – (makes a formal motion to discuss it all after reviewing legal options.)

    Daniel – it is not something I’m excited totally about. The only reason… I wish we brought this…what I’m seeing…it is really important that Liz is asking for this is that it is a critical piece of the decision making. I want all to have the same info. There’s probably a lot I don’t know. I’d like to know as much as possible to make a responsible decision. Don’t want mud, or a lawsuit. There will be limitations. I’d like to explain myself to the community.

    Peter – I feel if we don’t let everyone know what we’s just hard for me. I thank Liz for bringing it up. We need to work to get everyone all the information we know.

    Franz – I think our current timeline doesn’t permit this.

    Ian – we can modify the timeline… a meeting prior to our decision, so we’ll need to modify it. We’ll get to that after this.

    Franz – not wrong to undertake this effort. It must be done carefully. Are then one side needs to be heard. It needs to be in service of resolving the issues

    (the mediator plan would do all this says CG)

    Franz – unformed thoughts by me and pull in different directions. If we do this, it will take time. Then it might be beneficial if it leads to a resolution. It can’t justify past events or settle past scores. Big to undertake at this juncture.

    ian – I don’t think it is a good idea. We can look forward. Don’t want to drag anyone through the mud. It is against legal advice and you all know that. I don’t think it will be productive. It is the will of the board.

    Liz – are you saying it can’t be done?

    Peter – of council says we can’t then we should also be willing to that side of the argument as well. I agree…

    Ian – you have been advised by legal council not to do this, but you want to anyway. The board got advice on this.

    Liz – I rescind my motion.

    Ian – oh my god.

    Liz – I understood there was a path forward to bring major aspects of the problem to the public.

    Ian – ok.

    (Kittens are trying to get my attention my typing for me now…)

    Daniel – we can be cautious and trust that our council will help us…

    (zoom meeting froze up…)

    Daniel – it will be worthwhile.

    Ian – any other discussion?

    3-0 to reveal the major issues with Rescue (no from Franz and Ian)

    Ian – so, then we’ll need to figure out that discussion and we’ll have that prior to a decision. Let’s figure out dates in the next day or two. It will be a meeting prior to our decision with ample time for public participation. May move the 19th date for decision. We’ll have a new schedule with plenty of notice for everyone. Tonight’s the first time we’re changing the schedule .

    (um.. two days ago?)

    Ian – that’s new business item 8…

    Potter – Sept 12 public forum may change, and voting may change…

    Ian – the schedule winkle change.

    Dick – thank you. heartfelt conversations… really appreciate your deliberations. It isn’t personal. One of the most informative meetings since this all started.

    Ian – we will juggle our schedule about the public meeting

    they adjourn at 11:24.

  • WOW!

    WOW, WOW, WOW!!!

  • ... and now to the video ...

    “Liz – . . . Elwell took me to the meeting to alert me to the conflict and alert me it was brewing . . .

  • The EMS forum will be broadcast on BCTV
    A public forum is scheduled for September 12 from 6-7:30 p.m. at Brooks Memorial Library. The forum will be broadcast live on BCTV’s website and on BCTV’s Facebook page.

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